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what's an "x64 PC" anyway

One can build an x86 PC....

Philosophical question...

- Personal systems running Apple OSX are personal computers

- Personal systems running Windows (or Linux or...) are personal computers

If you build an x64 system to run Apple OSX, is it a "PC" or a "Mac"? All Macs are PCs. Many x64 PCs can run Apple OSX with some trivial tweaks.

It seems like the popular usage around here is that a "Mac" is a PC with a half-eaten fruit logo, and a "PC" is basically an identical machine without the fruit logo.

So, wouldn't it be better to say "Apples" rather than "Macs", since the logo is the differentiator?
 
So, wouldn't it be better to say "Apples" rather than "Macs", since the logo is the differentiator?

Nah, that just makes someone sound like a newb. Like calling a Playstation a Sony.

Call the product by the product, not the brand. Eg. "Bread Maker", not "Sunbeam". If you say "Apple", you could be talking about anything from a battery charger to an iPad.

Mac is enough of a differentiator as the common computer is not a Mac, just like it is not made by Apple.
 
"PC" is not trademarked. ;)

Fail.

Quote for truth.

If someone needs to mention how much better their "PC" is to a Mac, it would make a lot more sense to give the brand, and/or type.

An Apple Macintosh is a PC.
I would go as far as to say an iPod Touch or iPhone is a PC too.
 
I have a $300 netbook. It's a complete POS compared to my MBA.

Build quality is what hits you first. Trackpad, keyboard, screen and tacky aesthetics come to mind before you even start on the fact that the Atom CPU is dog slow compared to C2D. I could go on about the lack of SSD and any sort of decent graphics...

Point is, if you think a $200 netbook is better than the MBA, you obviously haven't taken one out of the box, let alone used one. (Or even looked at the box for that matter. ;))

I've probably been using Apple Computers longer than you've been alive...

In today's economy, is it really worth the extra $800?

Also, if Intel Graphics on Macs are so great, why this article?

http://news.cnet.com/8301-13924_3-20026050-64.html
 
"PC" is not trademarked. ;)

Fail.

I know it's not, I used it as an emphasis that a Mac is a pc but not a PC. Better for you ?

In today's economy, is it really worth the extra $800?

What about today's economy ? Seriously, the economy card gets played too much. There might be 15% unemployment, but there's a whole 85% of us still employed and doing good for ourselves.
 
well apple really needs to get with the newer processors for sure. i personally like NVIDIA gpus better than ATI. but these new macbooks need to be released soon after the processors are announced
 
I have a $300 netbook. It's a complete POS compared to my MBA.

Build quality is what hits you first. Trackpad, keyboard, screen and tacky aesthetics come to mind before you even start on the fact that the Atom CPU is dog slow compared to C2D. I could go on about the lack of SSD and any sort of decent graphics...

Point is, if you think a $200 netbook is better than the MBA, you obviously haven't taken one out of the box, let alone used one. (Or even looked at the box for that matter. ;))

a $300 computer is worse than a $1000+ computer WOW THANKS FOR ENLIGHTENING US!!! you really are on the ball for this one!

however with most $300 netbooks you can

1) upgrade ram
2) upgrade to the latest SSD (sandforce or the new intel controller)
3) upgrade the wireless card
4) upgrade to a broadcom crystal HD Card

i dont think you can upgrade anything on the MBA really without voiding your warranty.

also the Core2duo is not faster than $500-$600 netbook cpu's running i3's and i5's the 1.4GHz core2duo is approx the same speed as the Athlon Neo K625 (which is a netbook cpu)
 
That's pretty funny....

and soon, you'll be paying $1000+ for Intel Integrated Graphics... :eek:

(ducks...)

well i sure as hell aint, thats just dumb, integrated graphics arent bad for what it is at its proper price point ($300-$600 computers) because it can still play HD video, basically cheap multimedia laptops without the gaming ability.

however most windows based laptops in the $1000+ range are at minimum nvidia optimus or dedicated ATi graphics, if not highest end nVidia/ATi GTX460/5870+

if you spend even more like $1500+ you get the fastest most up to date laptops available anywhere.
 
a $300 computer is worse than a $1000+ computer WOW THANKS FOR ENLIGHTENING US!!! you really are on the ball for this one!

however with most $300 netbooks you can

1) upgrade ram
2) upgrade to the latest SSD (sandforce or the new intel controller)
3) upgrade the wireless card
4) upgrade to a broadcom crystal HD Card

i dont think you can upgrade anything on the MBA really without voiding your warranty.

also the Core2duo is not faster than $500-$600 netbook cpu's running i3's and i5's the 1.4GHz core2duo is approx the same speed as the Athlon Neo K625 (which is a netbook cpu)

You actually can't upgrade any of those on MOST netbooks. You can on some, but definitely not on a lot. Though to be fair, Netbooks are pretty disposable.

well i sure as hell aint, thats just dumb, integrated graphics arent bad for what it is at its proper price point ($300-$600 computers) because it can still play HD video, basically cheap multimedia laptops without the gaming ability.

however most windows based laptops in the $1000+ range are at minimum nvidia optimus or dedicated ATi graphics, if not highest end nVidia/ATi GTX460/5870+

if you spend even more like $1500+ you get the fastest most up to date laptops available anywhere.

Apples are overpriced and underpowered. We get it. You've made your point and you're nowhere near the first to make it. Sadly they provide the smoothest ride with Mac OS X and anyone who's not superficial will realize that's the only reason to be buying a Mac anyway.
 
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Sadly they provide the smoothest ride with Mac OS X and anyone who's not superficial will realize that's the only reason to be buying a Mac anyway.

But, why can't you have a "smooth ride" and current technology? The two are not inherently mutually exclusive (although Apple's walled garden often makes it so).
 
But, why can't you have a "smooth ride" and current technology? The two are not inherently mutually exclusive (although Apple's walled garden often makes it so).

You answered your own question, sadly. It's by Apple's design. Though, at least with the laptops and Mac mini, it tends to be about Steve Jobs' obsession with thinness. The same is probably also true of the iMac, which could have more than the ATI Radeon HD 5750 on the 27" model if it had enough room for cooling.
 
You answered your own question, sadly. It's by Apple's design. Though, at least with the laptops and Mac mini, it tends to be about Steve Jobs' obsession with thinness. The same is probably also true of the iMac, which could have more than the ATI Radeon HD 5750 on the 27" model if it had enough room for cooling.

I think the problem is the fans that buy the computers. If it were made sparkling clear years ago that no one bought their computers if they were gimped and they only sold when they went all out and had constant updates, then we would have a different picture today.

They gimp them and save a few hundred more and keep the premium price because people buy it anyways. So of course, they will still do it. If the next update is like it always is then I will look elsewhere when I upgrade my laptop next year. Only reason I got this 13' MBP is that I got it new for 1,000. Which was somewhat ballpark. I think 899 should be the price if they had to behave like a normal company.

That 1800 for the 15" is disgusting. Mac Pro honestly shouldn't be anymore than 1899.00 starting as well.

Customers do it to themselves.
 
I think the problem is the fans that buy the computers. If it were made sparkling clear years ago that no one bought their computers if they were gimped and they only sold when they went all out and had constant updates, then we would have a different picture today.

They gimp them and save a few hundred more and keep the premium price because people buy it anyways. So of course, they will still do it. If the next update is like it always is then I will look elsewhere when I upgrade my laptop next year. Only reason I got this 13' MBP is that I got it new for 1,000. Which was somewhat ballpark. I think 899 should be the price if they had to behave like a normal company.

That 1800 for the 15" is disgusting. Mac Pro honestly shouldn't be anymore than 1899.00 starting as well.

Customers do it to themselves.

Well, no. Apple has a monopoly on computers that run Mac OS X. As is the case with all monopolies, Apple is the only game out there if you want or need a computer running Mac OS X, so they can and will charge as much as they want for it. If you need the performance of a 15" MacBook Pro, you'll throw down the extra cash over the 13" because THERE IS NO OTHER COMPETITION! Therein lies the problem with the platform.
 
Well, no. Apple has a monopoly on computers that run Mac OS X. As is the case with all monopolies, Apple is the only game out there if you want or need a computer running Mac OS X, so they can and will charge as much as they want for it. If you need the performance of a 15" MacBook Pro, you'll throw down the extra cash over the 13" because THERE IS NO OTHER COMPETITION! Therein lies the problem with the platform.

People still shouldn't pay it. Its truly outrageous, kind of funny though how much OSX gets over-rated. Its very good, not the end all of OS's though. If it blew me when I needed it then I can understand more of a premium.

Can;t wait for those magical integrated GPU announcements and the i3 in the 13' for 1199.00

The 15 and 17 should be even more amusing. No optical drive = 2 more hours of battery life LOL going to be great.
 
Well, no. Apple has a monopoly on computers that run Mac OS X. As is the case with all monopolies, Apple is the only game out there if you want or need a computer running Mac OS X, so they can and will charge as much as they want for it. If you need the performance of a 15" MacBook Pro, you'll throw down the extra cash over the 13" because THERE IS NO OTHER COMPETITION! Therein lies the problem with the platform.

You should read up on what is a monopoly because you obviously don't know what it means. Your claim is essentially the same as claiming Burger King has a monopoly over the whopper and as such there is no competition.

Apple holds no monopoly.

Macs are only overpriced if you ignore some aspects of the product or compare them to out of segment products. If you compare Macs feature for feature to PC counterparts, they are very competitive. However, Apple limits the Macs to only certain configurations and combinations of features and as such, they limit their market appeal. The people that call Macs overpriced really just want a Mac with less features/different features for a cheaper price. Instead of realising that Apple just doesn't catter to them, they falsely believe that Apple sells overpriced computers.

The best example of this is the Mac Mini. It is a very competitive computer if you compare it to other SFF PCs. However, most people compare the Mini to entry level towers that do not share its most important feature : size. They then come to the conclusion that it's overpriced. Yet they go on to ignore things like the Dell Studio Hybrid, which is less hardware for the same price as a Mini, in the same form factor.
 
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Also, clearly if "there is no competition" to Apple, then you must like its products enough to justify the cost?

Eh... I've used Macs for 20 years so I think they're dirt cheap now. $7000-9000 is still what I remember the 17" PowerBook as. $6k for a 30" ACD. Everything today is just cheap. Then again my baseline has and always will be Macs.
 
You should read up on what is a monopoly because you obviously don't know what it means. Your claim is essentially the same as claiming Burger King has a monopoly over the whopper and as such there is no competition.

Apple holds no monopoly.

Macs are only overpriced if you ignore some aspects of the product or compare them to out of segment products. If you compare Macs feature for feature to PC counterparts, they are very competitive.

I agreed with that a year ago. I do see quite a few laptops that are close to battery life, close to the size, build quality can be subjective. 13' is pretty close, thats why I own that version. The Air is a good buy to me as well. Mini, yes if you need that it does out do the dell hybrid. Even on price. The 15 and 17' models I can find many with very close specs, sometimes a lot better and they are 700 cheaper.

I know Apple kind of skipped a refresh so that makes it look worse. I will hold judgement till I see their refresh. They might surprise me, they have before. Doesnt mean I cant poke some fun though. ;)

And iEdd is correct, if you have been using macs for that long it has to look dirt cheap now. A lot of things have come way down over the years.
 
You should read up on what is a monopoly because you obviously don't know what it means. Your claim is essentially the same as claiming Burger King has a monopoly over the whopper and as such there is no competition.

Apple holds no monopoly.

Monopoly Mo*nop"o*ly, n.; pl. Monopolies. [L. monopolium,
Gr. ?, ?; mo`nos alone + ? to sell.]
1. The exclusive power, or privilege of selling a commodity;
the exclusive power, right, or privilege of dealing in
some article, or of trading in some market; sole command
of the traffic in anything, however obtained; as, the
proprietor of a patented article is given a monopoly of
its sale for a limited time; chartered trading companies
have sometimes had a monopoly of trade with remote
regions; a combination of traders may get a monopoly of a
particular product.

Webster.

mo·nop·o·ly   
[muh-nop-uh-lee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -lies.
1.
exclusive control of a commodity or service in a particular market, or a control that makes possible the manipulation of prices. Compare duopoly, oligopoly.
2.
an exclusive privilege to carry on a business, traffic, or service, granted by a government.
3.
the exclusive possession or control of something.
4.
something that is the subject of such control, as a commodity or service.
5.
a company or group that has such control.
6.
the market condition that exists when there is only one seller.
7.
( initial capital letter ) a board game in which a player attempts to gain a monopoly of real estate by advancing around the board and purchasing property, acquiring capital by collecting rent from other players whose pieces land on that property.

Dictionary.com

Clearly it is you who doesn't know what a monopoly is. And yes, technically Burger King has a monopoly on the Whopper as McDonalds or Carl's Jr or any other establishment claiming to sell burger-like food products won't sell you one.

People still shouldn't pay it. Its truly outrageous, kind of funny though how much OSX gets over-rated. Its very good, not the end all of OS's though. If it blew me when I needed it then I can understand more of a premium.

Can;t wait for those magical integrated GPU announcements and the i3 in the 13' for 1199.00

The 15 and 17 should be even more amusing. No optical drive = 2 more hours of battery life LOL going to be great.

OS X is pretty rad. And yes, I'll pay the stupid Apple tax to be able to run it. Why? I don't want to have to do maintenance on my Windows machine to have it run fine and then STILL be subject to potential registry problems. Screw the registry. I'd do Linux if Linux could run even half the software I use for Mac and Windows. That leaves only Mac OS X. Though, given your argument, I should probably have a Hackintosh as that is pretty cheap and low on regular maintenance (just for point release patching).

Macs are only overpriced if you ignore some aspects of the product or compare them to out of segment products. If you compare Macs feature for feature to PC counterparts, they are very competitive. However, Apple limits the Macs to only certain configurations and combinations of features and as such, they limit their market appeal. The people that call Macs overpriced really just want a Mac with less features/different features for a cheaper price. Instead of realising that Apple just doesn't catter to them, they falsely believe that Apple sells overpriced computers.

The best example of this is the Mac Mini. It is a very competitive computer if you compare it to other SFF PCs. However, most people compare the Mini to entry level towers that do not share its most important feature : size. They then come to the conclusion that it's overpriced. Yet they go on to ignore things like the Dell Studio Hybrid, which is less hardware for the same price as a Mini, in the same form factor.

Take the 13" MacBook Pro. At its lowest configured cost, you can buy PCs that blow it out of the water. We're talking Core i7, 8GB of RAM, 500GB HDD, an NVIDIA card that puts the current 15" and 17" models' GeForce 330M GT to shame. The only spec that Apple has over those laptops is battery life. Evaluate the 15" and 17" MacBook Pros and you'll find that for those prices, you can buy a laptop the likes of which every Apple fanboy (your's truly included) would kill for (were it running OS X). And we're not talking piece of **** Dell, HP, or Sony laptops either.

If you want to make this argument on iMacs, I'll have to agree with you as most other PC all-in-ones with comparable innards to the iMacs are of comparable price. If you want to make the argument about the Mac Pro, I'll agree with you there too.

Otherwise, you're wrong about the Mac mini and wrong about every Apple portable save for the 11" MacBook Air, and even then, what if we want to buy an Apple laptop with either an Atom or a Peryn-based Pentium Dual-Core CPU?

Also, clearly if "there is no competition" to Apple, then you must like its products enough to justify the cost?

Eh... I've used Macs for 20 years so I think they're dirt cheap now. $7000-9000 is still what I remember the 17" PowerBook as. $6k for a 30" ACD. Everything today is just cheap. Then again my baseline has and always will be Macs.

I absolutely love their products to justify spending money on them. I can build a Hackintosh that'll leave even the 27" iMacs in the dust, and not even break a grand. I'd still happily buy one over said Hackintosh though. Though I have no idea where you pull $6000-9000 from, unless you factor the cost of said 17" PowerBook G4 and said 30" ACD and shipping to some foreign country.
 
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Though I have no idea where you pull $6000-9000

That'd be $AU, which makes the difference seem bigger now our dollars are almost equal.

Edit: Wait, you do realise I'm saying Macs are cheap now and quoting old prices, right? The 30" ACD halved in price within a few years then dropped even further before being discontinued. And of course the 17" PowerBook doesn't exist anymore. :eek:
 
Clearly it is you who doesn't know what a monopoly is. And yes, technically Burger King has a monopoly on the Whopper as McDonalds or Carl's Jr or any other establishment claiming to sell burger-like food products won't sell you one.

Clearly you don't know how to read definitions and interpret them. By your interpretation, every manufacturer is a monopoly since only they can make their own product and sell them through their channels of retailers. Which is just ridiculous. Tommy hillfiger has a monopoly for Tommy jeans, McDonald's over the BigMac, Sony on Sony TVs, Nintendo over the Wii, HTC on HTC Phones, Radio Shack on house branded HDMI cables, etc.. etc.. All of which are not monopolies in the real world, but are in your head so you can justify calling Apple a monopoly.

However, when the dictionary says comodity or article, they refer to categories of products, not actual products themselves. Mac OS X is not the commodity, computer operating systems are. As such, Apple does not hold a monopoly over computer operating systems.

So quote dictionaries all you want, if you do not understand the word and the definition, it still doesn't make you right. Apple is not a monopoly.


Otherwise, you're wrong about the Mac mini

Prove it. I'm tired of going to Dell's site, configuring a Studio Hybrid and showing everyone that claims I am wrong that I am not.

and wrong about every Apple portable save for the 11" MacBook Air

Let's talk post refresh. And you forgot the MBA 13". In ultra-portables, Apple is really competitive right now (since they just refreshed the stuff).

and even then, what if we want to buy an Apple laptop with either an Atom or a Peryn-based Pentium Dual-Core CPU?

What if you want to buy that stuff ? Apple doesn't sell it. If you want that stuff : Tough cookies, buy a Dell/Sony/HP or any other manufacturer's products. Apple isn't overpriced because they don't sell what you want. I don't call McDonald's overpriced because I wanted a 8 oz Angus prime rib steak with mashed potatoes.
 
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