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Silly John Fatty

macrumors 68000
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Nov 6, 2012
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I just jumped from High Sierra to Ventura. On one hand, I love it. It's amazing. It helps me so much with so many things. It also looks very pretty on top of that. I wouldn't want to go back.

What I did notice, however, is that Ventura is quite glitchy and sometimes slightly unstable. I can't remember ever having something like that in High Sierra. Mavericks was another OS that was super clean and super stable.

I don't understand why Apple releases a new OS every year. Apple should make one single OS, called "Mac OS", and then just update it as needed/as wished.

I guess they can't go back now (now that they make a yearly release), but actually I really think they could, and it would make things so much better.

They'd just have to remove the name of the OS (like Ventura or High Sierra) to not make it look "old" from a marketing perspective. It should be just "Mac OS" and that's it.

But I think it's a business too. They can theoretically make older hardware obsolete this way, and then sell new hardware.
 
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I’m running High Sierra now. Later this year or early next year I’ll be upgrading to a new Mac and I expect it to be an adjustment with the new OS. I already know I’m ambivalent about the current Systems Settings or whatever it’s called.
 
I wouldn't mind a new OS each year if new hardware could run the one OS version before the new release. For two reasons

1. Later iterations of each OS are often more stable
2. Bespoke software takes a little time to catch up to be compatible
 
A 1.0 of something is always going to be buggier than a 1.5/1.6.1 version of the same software. If you wait until 8 to 10 months in to update to the latest OS you'll be safe from most stability based issues and probably most software compatibility issues.

With the public betas MacOS is a lot more stable than it use to be honestly. Remember a while back installing the developer betas was much more painful in terms of what worked and what didn't
 
I also agree. I no longer update every year. I try to stay on the OS that was on my Mac when I purchased it for as long as I possibly can. As long as it does everything I need I have no desire for the extra 'features' (along with all the extra bugs) that come with a new OS. I also do not want my Mac slowing down over time due to the extra hardware demands from the newer OS each time I upgrade.
Happy on Monterey for now, and the foreseeable future!
 
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I agree with this. I also think macOS updates stopped being interesting when they stopped charging for new versions, but that could be a coincidence.

I want the mirror dock back, or at least some snazzy, cool things like it. macOS is so bland and flat these days.
 
Actually, I’d argue that Apple is doing pretty well on this front.

I think we all can agree that we want Apple to constantly improve its products, and that that improvement should be a balance of polishing what’s already there (obviously in the form of bug fixes, but also such as proactively improving the boring behind-the-scenes code such as that which stores your data on a drive) and bringing forth exciting new features.

What this means is full-time employment for a (very!) large team of programmers.

And a very realistic way to manage this activity is to set a reliable schedule for when a new version will be published; in Apple’s case, that’s once per year.

Then, behind the scenes, what you have is a regular cycle where, in the early phases, the developers go wild and try to implement as much exciting new stuff as they can. Then a deadline comes and decisions are made as to what is and isn’t close enough to finished to be included in the next version, at which point all the energy goes into getting the new stuff ready for prime time. After that, another deadline, and stuff goes into beta testing … which doesn’t involve the developers so much, so they start dreaming up exciting new ideas for the next version, often including the stuff from the last time around that didn’t make the cut this time. When the new version is released, the developers go wild trying to implement all the exciting new stuff they just brainstormed …

That’s an oversimplification, of course — but it should give you some idea of what’s going on.

And the deadlines are a very important part of the process! Otherwise, human nature gets people aiming too high, and projects drag on and on and get worse and worse. This way, people only take on projects they actually have a chance of finishing in a timely manner, and the deadlines keep everybody honest.

Oh — and, from the public side … somebody in Marketing draws the name of a California landmark out of a hat to make it seem like this is some radical, completely new operating system. And somebody else in Marketing annoys the bejeezus out of some poor schmuck on the development team to explain the exciting new features so that stuff can get hyped, too.

Now, we can all gripe about which features do and don’t make the cut, which bugs do and don’t get fixed, and the design and implementation choices of all of the above. But … take a step back, and it becomes apparent that, though Apple is far from perfect … they’re actually doing a really good job at balancing all these competing demands. Certainly, I’d argue, a much better job than any of their competitors … you can pick some metric by which somebody else is better, and if that’s the only metric you care about then your choice is obvious. But by all the other metrics, Apple has that particular competitor beat, and the same is true (with different metrics) for all their competitors.

Perhaps not the absolute best at any one thing, but solidly the best at everything combined.

b&
 
I just jumped from High Sierra to Ventura. On one hand, I love it. It's amazing. It helps me so much with so many things. It also looks very pretty on top of that. I wouldn't want to go back.

What I did notice, however, is that Ventura is quite glitchy and sometimes slightly unstable. I can't remember ever having something like that in High Sierra.

High Sierra gave me a ton of problems. It didn't mature out of them until 10.13.6, but even then it still paled in comparison to Mojave's stability.

Mavericks was another OS that was super clean and super stable.

It apparently was stable for audio users, but I definitely had WAY better mileage with Mountain Lion.

I don't understand why Apple releases a new OS every year. Apple should make one single OS, called "Mac OS", and then just update it as needed/as wished.

All of their OSes are derived from macOS and they do technically update it when they want to. But I totally get your point and completely agree. macOS does not require annual updates. I'd even argue that Apple ought to not update iPadOS annually (since it seems to delay marquee features from iOS by a year, on average, anyway). I think they can still update iOS and watchOS, annually while keeping the others up to date every other year without it causing serious issues to anyone's ability to develop and support software for any of Apple's platforms.

I guess they can't go back now (now that they make a yearly release), but actually I really think they could, and it would make things so much better.

Not sure why they can't. It's not like Apple isn't in total control over when they update their software. OR hardware, for that matter.

They'd just have to remove the name of the OS (like Ventura or High Sierra) so not make it look "old" from a marketing perspective. It should be just "Mac OS" and that's it.

But I think it's a business too. They can theoretically make older hardware obsolete this way, and then sell new hardware.

That's the only real benefit I see to such regular "major OS releases". It's also not like anything prevents Apple from going with a macOS-as-a-service model a la Microsoft's update cadence that they used for Windows 10 (prior to announcing that Windows 10 v22H2 was to be the final Windows 10 release) and now currently use for Windows 11. ...Which is to say, less significant feature/app-breaking changes and more stability/performance/security/IT-focused changes year over year. It's not like Apple isn't already adding significant under-the-hood changes mid-cycle these days anyway.

It needs to line up with iOS every year because they have cross-over features.
Except iOS's features don't even line up every year with macOS or even iPadOS consistently and those platforms are usually a year or so behind on a significant number of new features each year.
 
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I would like to see them move to a tick-tock cycle of "features" then "stability"

I'd even be happy with LTS releases. Like the stability release getting 5 years of support (perhaps at the trade off of the "features" release only getting 1-2 years support?)

But by and large, I prefer how Apple rolls out updates compared to Windows. They have been regular and consistent for many years now without seemingly misleading claims like "Windows 10 will be the last Windows ever"
 
Actually, I’d argue that Apple is doing pretty well on this front.

Breaking apps and features that worked perfectly in a prior release, didn't change significantly enough in the subsequent release that broke them, and then not doing enough QA work to discover those bugs until the next major release does not constitute "doing pretty well on this front" in my book. They did not have this problem to anywhere near this degree prior to the annual release cycle cadence (starting with OS X 10.9.x Mavericks).

I think we all can agree that we want Apple to constantly improve its products, and that that improvement should be a balance of polishing what’s already there (obviously in the form of bug fixes, but also such as proactively improving the boring behind-the-scenes code such as that which stores your data on a drive) and bringing forth exciting new features.

I do not want them to "improve" their products by breaking them. I want them to give me improvements that actually do something I want them to do and not break things just because it's the annual change-something o'clock time for them. The bugs in Ventura and Monterey are the epitome of breaking things that worked before for no reason other than change's sake and, processing the mountain of feedback requests should not occur when it's time to make a whole new release. That does not a good customer experience make. At this point, Microsoft is doing a way better job of addressing these concerns than Apple is (and, mind you, some of Microsoft's changes to both Windows 11 and late-era versions of Windows 10 are irksome; but even with how much they're trying to shove Chromium Edge and Bing down my throat, they're, at least, not impacting stability or functionality in the process)

What this means is full-time employment for a (very!) large team of programmers.

I'm fine with keeping programmers employed. I'm not fine with programmers being used to break things that needn't be broken. Why are my Apple dollars (and Apple stock values) going toward having their programmers break more than they fix? That just seems like problems.

And a very realistic way to manage this activity is to set a reliable schedule for when a new version will be published

This is true. If Microsoft taught us anything, it's that reliable release schedules are good for everyone...

; in Apple’s case, that’s once per year.

...However, this is where they clearly got it wrong. Under Jobs, releases came out anywhere between 15 and 30 months and only when Apple deemed it polished enough for release. Under Cook, it's between 11 and 14 months. The quality has arguably gone down, proportionately.

Then, behind the scenes, what you have is a regular cycle where, in the early phases, the developers go wild and try to implement as much exciting new stuff as they can. Then a deadline comes and decisions are made as to what is and isn’t close enough to finished to be included in the next version, at which point all the energy goes into getting the new stuff ready for prime time. After that, another deadline, and stuff goes into beta testing … which doesn’t involve the developers so much, so they start dreaming up exciting new ideas for the next version, often including the stuff from the last time around that didn’t make the cut this time. When the new version is released, the developers go wild trying to implement all the exciting new stuff they just brainstormed …

That’s an oversimplification, of course — but it should give you some idea of what’s going on.

I don't think anyone is debating the process. I think everyone is debating the cadence and the effect that it has on the quality of the finished products which, arguably, have gone substantially downhill over the last 11 years.

And the deadlines are a very important part of the process! Otherwise, human nature gets people aiming too high, and projects drag on and on and get worse and worse. This way, people only take on projects they actually have a chance of finishing in a timely manner, and the deadlines keep everybody honest.

Where is this "honesty" that you speak of? Apple is creating messes on an annual basis and not spending the time needed to adequately clean them up and then marketing it like it's the "best macOS release ever" despite the fact that there will be several users finding that a core stock app now has a bug that Apple didn't care to fix or properly diagnose. It also doesn't help that users, Genius Bar staff, Apple Authorized Service Provider staff, and AppleCare support staff are all isolated from Apple's "engineering teams" and therefore cannot provide feedback to them to fix their issues as they arise. It's a very poorly thought out system if you really stop to analyse it.


Now, we can all gripe about which features do and don’t make the cut, which bugs do and don’t get fixed, and the design and implementation choices of all of the above. But … take a step back, and it becomes apparent that, though Apple is far from perfect … they’re actually doing a really good job at balancing all these competing demands.

I'm not sure how (other than perhaps blind Apple zealotry) you can say this truthfully and with a straight face. They're doing a piss-poor job of balancing this because the average quality control is DECREASING year-over-year. Not increasing.

Certainly, I’d argue, a much better job than any of their competitors

They're not. Microsoft uses telemetry and actually engages with their customers to get feedback. It's a process that they started diving hard into with Windows 10 and Windows 11. Incidentally, their quality control release-over-release hasn't gone downhill in the way that macOS's has. Incidentally, your next biggest competitor is Ubuntu, a distro with a very vocal community. Plus, Microsoft and Canonical both release long-term enterprise-focused releases that only get security updates in the unlikely event that your one mission function or feature actually DOES break with a new update. This is not something Apple would ever do or offer its users. They'll break stuff and not think twice about it later.

… you can pick some metric by which somebody else is better, and if that’s the only metric you care about then your choice is obvious. But by all the other metrics, Apple has that particular competitor beat, and the same is true (with different metrics) for all their competitors.

What other metrics? The only metric that Apple might have others beat in (that this forum seems to obsess over like it's the most important thing) is consistency across the iconography on built-in system apps. Maybe on making things look prettier. That's about it. And if form matters more to you over function, Apple will always win for you. Some of us actually want our end user experiences to be consistent and stable year-over-year. Apple doesn't offer that and I can give you several examples of this for them whereas I cannot for Microsoft or Canonical.

Perhaps not the absolute best at any one thing, but solidly the best at everything combined.

That is solidly debatable. Past aesthetics, they're piss-poor on quality control, piss-poor on documentation and availability thereof, they're utterly hostile to IT departments when it comes to supporting the rest of their ecosystem, and overall a poor choice if what you need is long-term consistency and stability. If what you want is a consumer platform that's pretty, has nice aesthetics and you don't so much care about minor bugs from having been traumatized by the experience of buying a $500 Windows laptop (expecting that the experience won't be what you're paying for with such a low-grade PC laptop), then macOS will always delight you and seldom disappoint. If you really want to compare Apples to Apples about a quality Windows experience compared to that of a Mac experience when it comes to stability with major releases, you'll find that macOS no longer compares favorably and hasn't for a good while.
 
I would like to see them move to a tick-tock cycle of "features" then "stability"

This would be a massive improvement over the status quo.

I'd even be happy with LTS releases. Like the stability release getting 5 years of support (perhaps at the trade off of the "features" release only getting 1-2 years support?)

Hell, I'll totally take this. Though, I think a tick-tock cycle of "Features" followed by the "iPhone S"/"Snow Leopard" variant of stability and under-the-hood refinement. Even that would be a massive improvement over what is currently done.

But by and large, I prefer how Apple rolls out updates compared to Windows. They have been regular and consistent for many years now

The only thing consistent about how Apple rolls out its updates is that the major releases are announced in the summer and release in the fall. All other OS updates do not happen on any sort of predictable schedule. Unless you have a Mac that is steadily running betas of every minor release, you're not going to be able to predict when a new minor update is going to drop and even if you do, the best you can do is approximate. Microsoft releases updates the second Tuesday of every month. They have for the last 25 years. That's regular and consistent. Apple drops all of their updates when it feels like it.

without seemingly misleading claims like "Windows 10 will be the last Windows ever"
(a) Windows 11 is Windows 10 with security features that were optional in 10 being mandatory in 11 and a facelift. The version number is still 10.0.2xxxx. I'm not saying that qualifies as "last Windows ever", but (b) having worked in several corporate environments in my lifetime, that was clearly a marketing department changeover (something Apple is not foreign to, themselves). (c) The same servicing model still applies in Windows 11 and it's not like any PC capable of meeting Windows 11's requirements wouldn't still treat the bump from Windows 10 v21H1 to Windows 11 v22H2 like it wasn't just another Windows 10 feature update. (d) The Backpedaling of "Windows 10 will be the last Windows ever" is no different than the backpedaling done by Apple for the 2013 Mac Pro or them claiming a two year transition to Apple Silicon that made it just shy of the three year mark.
 
I just jumped from High Sierra to Ventura. On one hand, I love it. It's amazing. It helps me so much with so many things. It also looks very pretty on top of that. I wouldn't want to go back.

What I did notice, however, is that Ventura is quite glitchy and sometimes slightly unstable. I can't remember ever having something like that in High Sierra. Mavericks was another OS that was super clean and super stable.

I don't understand why Apple releases a new OS every year. Apple should make one single OS, called "Mac OS", and then just update it as needed/as wished.

I guess they can't go back now (now that they make a yearly release), but actually I really think they could, and it would make things so much better.

They'd just have to remove the name of the OS (like Ventura or High Sierra) to not make it look "old" from a marketing perspective. It should be just "Mac OS" and that's it.

But I think it's a business too. They can theoretically make older hardware obsolete this way, and then sell new hardware.
It's called planned obsolescence. That is what Apple does to force people to buy new devices, even though the old stuff is just fine hardware wise. Glad you finally found out...
 
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