You said it yourself, nowadays. It took them only 7-8 years you catch up, no big deal lol.
For the record, Apple maps still shows I live in a public school. My building was a public school, back in 1903 until 1942.
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For the record, Apple maps still shows I live in a public school. My building was a public school, back in 1903 until 1942.
Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
Actually it’s a pretty big deal, a HUGE deal in fact. When you consider how they’ve effectively created in 7-8 years something that’s a suitable option to Google Maps, who have been at it for FAR longer, taking advantage of the fact that they’ve been poring through everyone’s data for map content information, that’s an AMAZING accomplishment. An accomplishment that wouldn’t even EXIST if Google had just provided vector map information to Apple.
THANKS GOOGLE!!
Have you submitted an update to Apple Maps? Weird that they haven’t fixed it. When I submit an error to Apple Maps, I usually get feedback in a couple weeks that it’s been fixed. I’ve even submitted on behalf of local businesses (my friends own) and now folks can find them on Apple Maps.
Does Google show you live in a public school? Hm, wonder why they’d have more accurate personal information about you and where you live than Apple...
Yes I did, 3 times, then I gave up.
As for Google, and the rest of the world, well, they probably started with a map that I assume came from any point beyond 1970. It has nothing to do with personal info, this is public. But I get what you're trying to do... Apple good google evil blah blah blah. Privacy policy of either company has nothing to do with how well done google maps are and how hilariously bad Apple maps are
Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
No, more like I expect Google to have better information than Apple because they’re Google, it’s their core business. If ANYONE has better information than Google, then Google’s failing at their primary work statement. Google using public or private information to obtain better search results isn’t evil, it’s the cost of doing business.
I’m just surprised that you’ve submitted the change and Apple didn’t alter their results... which again, ANOTHER reason why Google will continue to excel in this area and Apple, feigning privacy, will continue to be lacking. Google even has a tool that allows you to ADD features to THEIR map. Don’t think Apple will ever be able to take advantage of crowdsourcing in the same way.
FreshMacPro
macrumors newbie
This would be awesome to run it on the pi
iBluetooth
macrumors 6502a
They will use emulation for those that wont be upgraded, but most apps will simply be compiled for both architectures.
I don't see Circuit layout or CAD programs compiling on ARM for a good long while. Those programs will also probably run like crap on emulation.
for me:
i don't want an arm based mac. i don't need it. and it would send the wrong signal to more professional users that apple is abandoning the macOS platform. which would be very bad for its entire portfolio of services and for AAPL.
what i do want is for iPad to have an integrated trackpad in its Smart Keyboard and iPadOS to support this integrated trackpad, and, for apple to continue to improve the iPadOS as it has been doing this past year.
(while there is Accessibility level support even now, i want it to be made totally part of the main GUI).
this will make it possible to not always keep reaching to touch the screen and make it a truly work productive device.
that's what i want my next MacBook Air replacement to be.
the Catalina experience proved that (even) a spaceship-ed HQ apple cant coordinate ≥2 operating systems to work well with each other. ;(
let me work on a universal iOS platform for iPhone and laptop computing.
i don't want an arm based mac. i don't need it. and it would send the wrong signal to more professional users that apple is abandoning the macOS platform. which would be very bad for its entire portfolio of services and for AAPL.
what i do want is for iPad to have an integrated trackpad in its Smart Keyboard and iPadOS to support this integrated trackpad, and, for apple to continue to improve the iPadOS as it has been doing this past year.
(while there is Accessibility level support even now, i want it to be made totally part of the main GUI).
this will make it possible to not always keep reaching to touch the screen and make it a truly work productive device.
that's what i want my next MacBook Air replacement to be.
the Catalina experience proved that (even) a spaceship-ed HQ apple cant coordinate ≥2 operating systems to work well with each other. ;(
let me work on a universal iOS platform for iPhone and laptop computing.
navaira
macrumors 601
I'm expecting the 12" Macbook to make a comeback, perhaps renamed to iBook, no Windows support, $999 – half-incentive, half-experiment to see how non-pro users react. And then...
...this might happen, no matter how many denials we've heard so far. And it will be renamed to Apple OS.
iBluetooth
macrumors 6502a
Well older apps that don't get recompiled usually run better in emulation just because they were programmed against old processors and todays are much faster. Circuit layout and CAD gain a lot with increased processor count, as they have a easily parallel algorithms, so these will probably be a lot better on ARM multicores
I see it the opposite. If Apple didn't care about the Mac, the safe play is to just keep rolling out whatever chip updates Intel releases and design around them. If they move to Arm, you could almost use the exact same reasoning for why they switched from PPC to Intel.
I would be very curious to see what an Apple-designed SOC would run at with proper cooling.
Well older apps that don't get recompiled usually run better in emulation just because they were programmed against old processors and todays are much faster. Circuit layout and CAD gain a lot with increased processor count, as they have a easily parallel algorithms, so these will probably be a lot better on ARM multicores
Your logic doesn't make sense. apps that don't get recompiled simply don't run. They don't run better in emulation than they would native. We aren't talking about a shift from an old x86 processor to a newer one, this is a completely different architecture. Emulation for this sort of thing isn't trivial, and has a huge performance hit. Also, the core count of x86 processors has been constantly going up, so I don't know what this core count point your making is. The bigger point here, is these apps run in Windows, I run bootcamp in order to run them now. If apple goes ARM, bootcamp goes away, or only supports the ARM version of windows which is not capable of running those CAD programs. Unless the companies that make those CAD programs see Windows start moving to ARM, it's unlikely they will move to ARM as well. This basically means that apple moving to ARM makes them lose me as a customer. Period.
Maximara
macrumors 68000
The cost
At least with the Intel where was evidence as far back as 1992 that efforts to get the MacOS to run on Intel with the Star Trek project (Computerworld made the obvious joke of "the OS that boldly goes where everyone else has been"). Yes, the project died a year later but there was at least official conformation that something was going on. To date no evidence of a Mac with an ARM chip running the MacOS has been reliably reported.
Yes there are benefits to going to ARM, for the laptops, but the cost is huge. The whole under the hood unix core will no longer compile all the ported to Mac code out there. Windows ARM has gone exactly nowhere and if an OS that dominates the PC world can't make ARM work as a desktop/laptop hardware platform then what chances does an OS that at best has perhaps 10% of the marketshare have?
I agree. In fact, this whole 'switch to ARM' idea burns a lot of bridges unless Apple has some form of emulation ready and that is going to cause a performance hit
At least with the Intel where was evidence as far back as 1992 that efforts to get the MacOS to run on Intel with the Star Trek project (Computerworld made the obvious joke of "the OS that boldly goes where everyone else has been"). Yes, the project died a year later but there was at least official conformation that something was going on. To date no evidence of a Mac with an ARM chip running the MacOS has been reliably reported.
Yes there are benefits to going to ARM, for the laptops, but the cost is huge. The whole under the hood unix core will no longer compile all the ported to Mac code out there. Windows ARM has gone exactly nowhere and if an OS that dominates the PC world can't make ARM work as a desktop/laptop hardware platform then what chances does an OS that at best has perhaps 10% of the marketshare have?
Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
I think of it like this, the people most impacted by the inability to run Intel compiled macOS software are the people that already have a computer sitting in front of them that runs Intel compiled macOS software. Those people can do exactly nothing and maintain all of the flexibility and all of the mission criticality that they need for years to come! So, they don’t need emulation, they just need to not upgrade.
The majority of those that would be buying a new computer are going to be fine with iLife, Safari, and the other apps that come installed, and maybe whatever apps they want from the App Store. All the apps they have access to will be already be ARM compiled, so they don’t need emulation either.
Now,there‘s a group of folks in between that have macOS devices but spend most of their time emulating or virtualizing other OS’s. This used to be a broadly touted feature, but at this time, it no longer gets a mention, not even on what would be the most appropriate system, the Mac Pro (just did a search for “vir” and got a hit... but it was for virtual instruments
. They’re going to burn bridges, but with the majority of macs sold now going to folks who’ve never owned a Mac before, the impact would be lessened.Apple does many things that they don’t provide official confirmation on. Because their ARM solution is all in-house, they can just keep working it until they get something they like. There’s no external chip companies... Intel or AMD folks, to leak any useful information. TSMC could leak something, because they would potentially be turning out chips now for evaluation purposes (and there are stories about the A14 samples being shipped to Apple), but that still wouldn’t force Apple to have to confirm anything.
Pretty good. It’s not the size of the marketshare, it’s the work that’s been done by Apple to put them at every stage of the code/compile/deploy cycle. In fact, the situation as it exists today for Catalina is similar to a CPU transition. Anyone that wanted to update to Catalina found that much of their software wouldn’t work after upgrading... so many didn’t upgrade. Some updated a few apps they needed, maybe downloaded new versions from the App Store, said goodbye to apps they couldn’t update, and upgraded. The same thing would happen for ARM, you check to see if all your critical apps are available in ARM compiled versions and, if so, you can buy a new ARM macOS system. If not, you don’t upgrade, going back to the first point. Additionally, the ARM processors Apple has access to are FAR faster than anything Microsoft would have access to. Qualcomm is doing better, but, as Apple’s solution is tuned for Apple, it will always run Apple software faster than raw performance numbers would indicate (someone should do a compression test between a new MBP’s iMovie and the iOS iMovie...)
Incidentally, all of the above applies to any transition, ARM or AMD. Though, since most of Apple’s sales are of mobile devices, and since Intel thinks a switch is going to happen next year (they didn’t say WHICH, they just said, essentially, ‘they ain’t buying our stuff!’), unless AMD has a secret high performance, low watt mobile solution up their sleeves, I’d lean towards some flavor of Apple’s A-series chips.
cmaier
Suspended
Who runs circuit cad on windows? What kind of amateur-hour nonsense is that? As someone who designed cpus for years, I would never even consider such a thing
Who runs circuit cad on windows? What kind of amateur-hour nonsense is that? As someone who designed cpus for years, I would never even consider such a thing
Well, Altium Designer doesn't run on anything but Windows, and it's the best PCB CAD software I have ever used.
Maximara
macrumors 68000
All the apps they have access to will be already be ARM compiled?
Hardly. One only need to look as the Power PC to Intel transitions to see that isn't going to be true for a while. Apple will support Intel only apps up to 2 years after the last Intel Mac ships as two years seems to be as old as Apple goes with its refurbished macs. Heck, some companies will not make the transition though I suspect Apple will have some form of Sunset clause regarding the App store.
Now,there‘s a group of folks in between that have macOS devices but spend most of their time emulating or virtualizing other OS’s. This used to be a broadly touted feature, but at this time, it no longer gets a mention, not even on what would be the most appropriate system, the Mac Pro (just did a search for “vir” and got a hit... but it was for virtual instruments
watt mobile solution up their sleeves, I’d lean towards some flavor of Apple’s A-series chips.
I think your Google fu was weak, grasshopper. ;-) I just now (18, Dec 2019) searched for "macOS virtual machine on Mac" and chose macOS as the refinement option.
VM Fusion and Parallels topped out the list and there were a lot of how to run MacOS (whatever) on VirtualBox hits as well but nowhere near the wasteland you are implying.
Heck, I even found "Windows95" an emulation of Windows95 written in freaking Electron thanks to my GoggleFu being beyond 1st Dan level (for the rest of you 1st level Dan is effectively a black belt - where the expert training begins) Never mind finding such things as "Azure Virtual Machines on Mac" and instructions to on how to instal Linux (Puppy/Red Hat/Ubuntu/etc) and Windows (whatever) on to a VM via Fusion, Parallels, and VirtualBox.
Just searching for "vir" will get you non starters like "Virginia International Raceway" so I question just what kludgy search engine you were using (as well on how you were using it) to just get "virtual instruments" and not a lot of irrelevent junk using "vir".
cmaier
Suspended
Ohhh. PCBs. Okay. I thought you could do that with graph paper and tin foil.
Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
Look at it like this, let’s say I bought my grandmother a MBP 16. It ships with Catalina. Every app she has access to when I set it up for her, will be 64-bit. If she goes to the App store, ALL the apps she sees available for download will be 64-bit. She doesn’t know to look anywhere else for apps, so ALL the apps she effectively has access to are 64-bit. The same would apply for ARM.
The PowerPC to Intel transition didn’t have an App Store that forces a good chunk of developers to update their code in order to be listed. AND, developers weren’t using the same Apple supplied IDE, making that transition a lot more straightforward. By significantly reducing the pain of updating their code, Apple has increased the likelihood that developers will update their code, right when Apple says it’s a requirement. Apps like Vectornator, that currently run on Intel macOS systems and ARM iOS systems, will quickly be ready to run on ARM macOS systems.
Certain specialist apps aren’t on the App Store, but your general consumer aren’t using specialist apps. Heck, they’re barely going beyond Safari!
No, that actually proves my point!
You didn’t used to need to know what you’re looking for to find what you’re looking for! You could be a level one novice and still know, just by visiting the iMac page, that it You USED to be able to look at ANY Apple product page and it would tout the the Intel processor and the ability to run Windows apps. Some even mentioned Boot Camp and/or Parallels.Now, you you have to already know what you’re looking for to find it. You have to already know about Windows and Boot Camp in order to search for them and find anything on any of Apple’s pages. BUT, as a first time consumer, looking at Apple’s product pages, you won’t find a single instance of Apple mentioning virtualization or emulation or even Windows on their product pages anymore. As Apple telegraphs things like this far in advance of any actual technology change, it tells me that “being able to run non-macOS apps” is far down the list of what Apple thinks any future system should be able to do.
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Maximara
macrumors 68000
No, that actually proves my point!
I don't think you got the memo but those days are as long gone as the ways where you had to go to the blacksmith to re-shoe your horse. The idea that you could plunk in "vir" in a modern search engine (be it Google, Yahoo, or what every else is out there) and not get a lot of junk (like "Virginia International Raceway" Heck, that pops up on searching in Apple's own freaking store) is so laughable as to be ridiculous and the claim that only virtual interments pop up is impossible.
"System requirements to install Windows using Boot Camp for macOS" - Apple's own website
Software System - Apple's discussion board - Bootcamp, Parallels, VMFusion, and Virtualbox (ie the big four) are the first answer posted.
"If a disruption to the Mac platform this large is coming, it can’t be pulled off overnight. Not only is development of ARM-based processors difficult, Apple would also quickly run into an app problem. No one wants a new Mac that can’t run the software and apps they already know and love. Microsoft has already demonstrated what a mess transitioning over to ARM can be without the proper app support. That’s a disaster Apple would want to avoid at all costs." - Digital Trends November 30, 2019
"Currently, developers must generate separate apps for MacOS and iOS, and right now, they appear more inclined to develop for iOS than MacOS. Just look at the Mac App Store’s seemingly barren state, which is devoid of popular apps like Facebook, Twitter, Netflix, and Hulu" - Digital Trends November 5, 2019
The whole thing hinges on how many developers write programs via Catalyst that run on both the Intel MacOS and iOS. If it is a lot then there is incentive for an ARM Mac but if it goes the way of Taligent OS, Copeland, and OpenDoc then a ARM Mac could become the modern version of the Apple Pippin. The article is way too optimistic with a possible date of June 2020 - a Mac that can only run a handful of software outside of Apple's own efforts is going to basically sit there.
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Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
That’s not a search engine search, that’s a browser search!
If you want to very quickly tell if ANY of Apple’s product pages include either emulation or virtualization, you just go to each one and type the first few letters in the URL bar. It’ll even tell you how many times that pattern appears on the page. Same works for “win” if you want to know if Windows is listed on a page.And, this is my point, once again.
Apple used to list this information, not JUST in their discussion boards, but on their product pages. I don’t think they even have “Windows” on those pages anymore. Go to ANY Mac page, even the professional pages where you’d think this would be. It’s not there. It’s a tiny thing (like an unannounced AMD processor showing up in a .kext but it wouldn’t surprise me if this was the direction they were headed.The problem with statements like this is that it assumes that, once Apple releases an ARM based Mac, everyone is forced to upgrade and will find that some of the apps they already know and love won‘t run. And, this just isn’t true. Folks have a computer that can run the software and apps they already know and love right now, it’s sitting right there in front of them on the system they OWN and love! No one is going to take that away from them and these people should NOT buy an ARM based Mac. Mac sales would suffer tremendously, but I don’t think that bothers Apple much.
For the last few years the majority of Macs have been sold to people who don’t have software and apps they know and love, because they’ve never owned a Mac before. So, these people don’t care if it’s Intel, or ARM or Dorito, as long as they can surf the web and check their email, maybe store and edit their photos or play videos and music, that’s all they need. Remember the vast majority of people never utilize the potential of the computer they buy.
But THAT hinges on whether it’s easy enough to do AND if the developer feels there’s money to be made. If so, the App problem solves itself. But, there’s a bigger problem just below...
One of the most SERIOUS problems with the Mac App store is that most people don’t need what’s being sold. OmniGraffle for example, excellent program, but you can create simple enough graphics using Keynote. Pixelmator, very nice app, but you can do ”good enough” edits with Photos. I would guess that if we followed most of the Macs leaving the Apple Store today and see what gets done with them, we’d likely find that they get home, they set up their email and other basic settings and never do much of anything else. In that sense, “only running a handful of software outside of Apple’s own efforts“ is pretty much describing the average Mac today!
Of course this is all idle speculation based around ONE idea... that Intel has said they expect Apple to start some transition next year (likely based on the fact that Apple has contracted far fewer chips than they normally do). If this is the case, and that WILL start in June of next year, then it’s going to be seriously disruptive and some things are going to be left behind. Changing to AMD would be less impactful, but Apple would have to take a step backwards in performance with their top sellers, mobiles, because AMD’s mobile solution is not where Intel is now.
IF, and that’s a big IF, they go with an A-series solution, since so very few people use/need emulation/virtualization (and the ones that do have the solution sitting in front of them), I could totally see them going with a “Hey, if you need that particular feature, keep the computer you have. BUT, for everyone else, look at how much faster iMovie renders and Safari displays a web page versus an Intel system!”
There’s VERY few people that think Apple would have the performance level required in their A-series solution to emulate Intel at a decent speed. BUT, if their A-series comes out and it’s truly a world beating processor, then sure, everything above is null and void and I’m just a pessimist
Maximara
macrumors 68000
Facepalms. Please tell us that was a Troll comment because otherwise...ugh.
A browser is the interface through wich you use the internet. Chrome, Firefox, and Safari are the examples of browsers.
A Search engine is the software that the browser interacts with so you can find stuff. (see Web search engine) with Google and Yahoo being the big ones. Though there are others (14 Great Search Engines You Can Use Instead of Google). Heck, Spotlight is a defacto search engine built into the Mac OS that mainly finds files on your computer though it will throw up things on the web from time to time.
Of course this is all idle speculation based around ONE idea... that Intel has said they expect Apple to start some transition next year (likely based on the fact that Apple has contracted far fewer chips than they normally do). If this is the case, and that WILL start in June of next year, then it’s going to be seriously disruptive and some things are going to be left behind. Changing to AMD would be less impactful, but Apple would have to take a step backwards in performance with their top sellers, mobiles, because AMD’s mobile solution is not where Intel is now.
IF, and that’s a big IF, they go with an A-series solution, since so very few people use/need emulation/virtualization (and the ones that do have the solution sitting in front of them), I could totally see them going with a “Hey, if you need that particular feature, keep the computer you have. BUT, for everyone else, look at how much faster iMovie renders and Safari displays a web page versus an Intel system!”
There’s VERY few people that think Apple would have the performance level required in their A-series solution to emulate Intel at a decent speed. BUT, if their A-series comes out and it’s truly a world beating processor, then sure, everything above is null and void and I’m just a pessimist
Welcome to Speculation City
Seriously, Apple doesn't pump out a bucket load of macs when a new model comes out and sit on them like a mother hen until the next model come out. Rather, they keep making those computers for what ever the planned lifespan is (generally two years), CPU purchasing is the same way - not one big 'I'm all in' but a "steady" stream.
Which makes this "Apple has contracted far fewer chips" statement weird. Take a look at something like Best Mac 2019: the best Macs to buy this year and realizes that nearly all of those will still be made with Intel chips into 2020 for the 2018 models (Mac Mini and MacBook Air) and 2021 for the 2019 models)
Never mind Apple just bought Intel's mobile modem business for over $1 billion which I imagine contains Intel chips.
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Unregistered 4U
macrumors G4
No, you just don’t understand what I’m talking about.
On a Mac, you can use this to find specific text on a page in Safari without being connected to the internet.
Find on Web Page in Safari
on iOS it’s
Same thing for iOS
and in Windows, it’s
Same feature, this time on Windows
Again, these aren’t internet searches. You can disconnect your device from the internet and still find content on the page that’s being shown. Like, right now, for this page, “Max” shows up 16 times. And, I can jump right to each reference.
Yeah, it’s a LOT of text, but still, all just idle speculation. I didn’t want anyone to think that this was a crusade or anything!
It’s going to be interesting whether it turns out to be ARM, AMD or Dorito! I just like to take a guess at where things may be headed. Like, for the Intel thing, I wonder ”What non-specific information would Intel have that would make an Intel person say that?” Well, like all corporations dealing with millions of widgets, you can’t show up at the last minute and say “I’ll need 3 million by tomorrow”. These contracts have to be settled far in advance.The story came out in Feb of this year, (before the sale of Intel’s modem division, so that’s not included in what the Intel resources are communicating) so it was probably preceded by a meeting between Intel and Apple where Apple lays out their needs. Let’s say Apple sells about 8 million Macs a year. Intel would go into the meeting expecting their normal steady stream order of 8-9 million CPU’s.
Intel: So, we’ve been looking at your contract proposal..
Apple: Yes?
Intel: And... is this figure right? 2 million CPU’s?
Apple: Yeah, that’s how many we need, plus more if sales exceed expectations.
Intel: And... you don’t think you’ll need more like... 8 million CPU’s?
Apple: Oh, no! No. Nononononononono. Definitely won’t... ahem... won’t need that many.
Intel: Huh... ok. Soooo, this is it? Nothing else?
Apple: Nope, just sign there and we’re done until next year!
Intel: Huh... ok.
Apple won’t have said anything about their future plans in detail, but Intel could easily see that either Apple was expecting an EXTREMELY steep fall off in Mac sales OR they will have a non-Intel CPU in them. And, you know, I hadn’t even thought to speculate that Apple COULD expect to sell WAY fewer Macs...
I guess preceding stories (Bloomberg, Ming-Chi Kuo) referring to an Apple transition to ARM, followed by a story sourced from Intel saying, “Huh, they’re not buying as many from us” could lead to a focus on CPU migration speculation. BUT, WOULD Apple really do something that would actually just make Mac sales fall off so much?
Maximara
macrumors 68000
Doubtful. I wonder if it was more Apple not ordering as many chips rather then as many CPUs and the information got messed up down the line. After all Apple uses Intel chips lower end (ie cheaper) for its Mac graphics - Intel UHD Graphics for the Macbook Air and MacMini and Intel Iris Plus Graphics for the 13" Macbook Pro.
cmaier
Suspended
ARM products sell in much greater volumes than Intel. Switching to ARM would increase Mac sales.
Sure, they’d lose customers seeking to run VMs and niche customers who really need Intel instruction set for some reason, but even if zero existing mac customers ever bought another mac, switching to ARM (more accurately, the benefits that derive from this switch) will cause a percentage of iphone and ipad owners who never bought macs to buy macs, and this will result in many more mac sales than apple has ever achieved before.