Apple Silicon: The Complete Guide

[Unregistered 4U]

Doubtful.

OH, I doubt it TOO! But still, speculation knows no bounds! LOL And, it’s a nice hedge if Apple DOES drastically reduce the number of Macs sold next year

After all Apple uses Intel chips lower end (ie cheaper) for its Mac graphics - Intel UHD Graphics for the Macbook Air and MacMini and Intel Iris Plus Graphics for the 13" Macbook Pro.

Intel’s graphics options used to be separate chips on the MB. Now, it appears that they are a part of the processor package. So, for these chips, there’s no separation between graphics and CPU’s. If you don’t have one, you don’t have the other... so the story still refers to the CPU.

Intel does have a desktop processor line that HAS the graphics hardware, it’s just disabled. But, if that were the case, then there wouldn’t be a report from these Intel resources and developers as they’d still have the same sized order. No, I think this is clearly and entirely about a reduction of CPU orders from Apple.
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ARM products sell in much greater volumes than Intel. Switching to ARM would increase Mac sales.

If the Mac keeps the same form factor (and Apple has indicated they don’t plan to bring the lines together) and the same relative prices, I don’t see Mac sales increasing much if any. Many of those potential Mac sales have already been lost to iOS and iPad OS, and part of the decision was the portability (still way more portable than a MacBook) and always connected internet. I just don’t see someone that has made a VERY conscious decision to NOT use a Mac suddenly decide to get one just because of the processor in it. The vast majority of iOS/iPadOS owners probably couldn’t tell you what chip was in what they have in their hands!

 

[cmaier]

I just don’t see someone that has made a VERY conscious decision to NOT use a Mac suddenly decide to get one just because of the processor in it. The vast majority of iOS/iPadOS owners probably couldn’t tell you what chip was in what they have in their hands!

It’s easy to straw man when you remove the rest of my post before responding. I explained that the reason Macs would sell is because of the benefits that using ARM brings, not because consumers just like ARM or something.

And the benefits of ARM are obvious.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

It’s easy to straw man when you remove the rest of my post before responding. I explained that the reason Macs would sell is because of the benefits that using ARM brings, not because consumers just like ARM or something.

And the benefits of ARM are obvious.

We just have a difference of opinion. My opinion is that folks don’t like the Mac form factor and much prefer the size and features that come with iOS. That, and to some degree, price, is why iOS outsells macOS by a huge margin. A Mac form factor with an ARM CPU doesn’t change that metric. Macs will still be larger, heavier and have fewer online options compared to iOS/iPadOS.

An ARM CPU could bring benefits a‘plenty. But, if the product maintains a form factor, features, and pricing similar to the current Mac (and, again, Apple has indicated they won’t try to bring iOS features like touch screen and cellular connectivity to macOS), it’s not going to sell any more than it does now. And, like you said, will likely sell much less as you would have fewer folks buying a Mac as an upgrade of a currently owned Mac (with a potentially incompatible software library).

 

[cmaier]

We just have a difference of opinion. My opinion is that folks don’t like the Mac form factor and much prefer the size and features that come with iOS. That, and to some degree, price, is why iOS outsells macOS by a huge margin. A Mac form factor with an ARM CPU doesn’t change that metric. Macs will still be larger, heavier and have fewer online options compared to iOS/iPadOS.

An ARM CPU could bring benefits a‘plenty. But, if the product maintains a form factor, features, and pricing similar to the current Mac (and, again, Apple has indicated they won’t try to bring iOS features like touch screen and cellular connectivity to macOS), it’s not going to sell any more than it does now. And, like you said, will likely sell much less as you would have fewer folks buying a Mac as an upgrade of a currently owned Mac (with a potentially incompatible software library).

If people didnt like the mac form factor there would be so many ipad keyboards sold. Give iphone/ipad users a chrome-book like device that runs all their ios software, syncs all their data, doesn’t have the maintenance issues associated with macOS, etc., and many of them will be on board.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If people didnt like the mac form factor there would be so many ipad keyboards sold. Give iphone/ipad users a chrome-book like device that runs all their ios software, syncs all their data, doesn’t have the maintenance issues associated with macOS, etc., and many of them will be on board.

The Mac form factor and function is not the same as ”iPad with a keyboard”.

What do you mean by “doesn’t have the maintenance issues associated with macOS?“ You mean a NON-macOS system?

 

[Maximara]

If the Mac keeps the same form factor (and Apple has indicated they don’t plan to bring the lines together) and the same relative prices, I don’t see Mac sales increasing much if any. Many of those potential Mac sales have already been lost to iOS and iPad OS, and part of the decision was the portability (still way more portable than a MacBook) and always connected internet. I just don’t see someone that has made a VERY conscious decision to NOT use a Mac suddenly decide to get one just because of the processor in it. The vast majority of iOS/iPadOS owners probably couldn’t tell you what chip was in what they have in their hands!

I agree. There just so many people who will buy a Mac and I don't see the CPU making a difference. Besides IMHO there just isn't that much crossover between the Mac and the iOS and iPad OS markets they are simply aimed at different people with different wants and needs.

Right now I am I'll believe it when Apple official announces it and even there I won't consider it real until Apple actually put the things out (Can you say Copland, Neighbor? I knew you could. )

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Right now I am I'll believe it when Apple official announces it and even there I won't consider it real until Apple actually put the things out

I think that’s a very healthy attitude to have! Even though people speak a lot about Apple’s recent “failures”, each of those failures would have profits any Fortune 500 company would LOVE to have. The only thing that’s fairly sure is that:

In 2020, Apple will do a thing, a lot of folks on forums everywhere will hate it, some will wonder why they didn’t just keep making the Apple II (or maybe the eMate? some “thing” they don’t make anymore is the point and an enormous number of non-forum people will purchase it driving Apple to more success. 👍

 

[08380728]

Apple's problem is the lack of a lean OS on ARM given the bloat in OS X today. What they should do is reset back to 10.6 and bring back Forstall to lead the ARM based OS X derivative. A win-win for Apple and the customer.

eh?? Forstall? He was the iOS guy, what possible reason for him to be OS X Arm guy to bring back a lean OS X?

dude, the Mac OS X QAQC demise started before Forstall’s name was anything.

Avie Tevanian was head of Mac OS X up to Tiger. After he left, the next version of Mac OS X was Leopard this was the first bad release and the beginning of the rushed, unfinished, lower quality releases.

Craig Federighi’s and guys like Scott Forstall are ok for leading smaller projects but not in the same league as Avie.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Craig Federighi’s and guys like Scott Forstall are ok for leading smaller projects

Scott Forstall’s not even in the same league as you, drayon. Just posting to this forum is likely FAR more technical than anything Forstall has done since leaving Apple. He’s one of the few (only?) higher ups at Apple that didn’t do anything in tech after leaving.

 

[dogslobber]

Craig Federighi’s and guys like Scott Forstall are ok for leading smaller projects but not in the same league as Avie.

Internally at Apple, Forstall was incredibly respected and destined for great things. Craig picked up some of the slack when Scott was pushed.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Forstall was incredibly respected and destined for great things.

It’s kind of hard to believe that someone “destined for great things” could not find ANY other company in tech that wanted them.

 

[dogslobber]

It’s kind of hard to believe that someone “destined for great things” could not find ANY other company in tech that wanted them.

What tech companies are there after Apple?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

What tech companies are there after Apple?

All of the others? I mean, to be fair, he WAS reported to be an advisor at Snap, but that wasn’t a paid position.

 

[dogslobber]

All of the others? I mean, to be fair, he WAS reported to be an advisor at Snap, but that wasn’t a paid position.

I mean what other company could offer the same level of satisfaction from work than shipping Apple products? everything else seems meh.

 

[decisions]

If you read Ken Kocienda’s book, you’ll see that Scott was a great leader within Apple that brought out creativity within his subordinates. However you’ll also see that he was very close to Steve, and so I feel like his being pushed out of Apple is actually a pretty sad thing was simply a consequence of Steve no longer being around. I for one wish he was still at Apple.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

If you read Ken Kocienda’s book,

If you look at reality, like... the real world, the only thing he’s done of note was to be Steve’s friend and get hired by him to work where Steve worked. His value as an employee was limited by whether or not he had someone to protect him, which is likely why he’s never held another tech job. And really, has never worked for anyone else.

He’s just not a lot like Steve Jobs. Primarily, when Jobs was forced out of Apple, did he give up on his vision? No, he went on to start the company that gave Forstall his start. I used to be one of those curious about when Forstall would return to Apple until I checked out the wiki page. He hasn’t done anything to show that he’d be valuable if he returned to Apple. Hasn’t held an executive position since leaving Apple... I mean, if you were looking for someone to hire to be an Apple leader, wouldn’t you want that person to show something other than “I used to work here, but really haven’t done anything with tech in about 6 years”?

 

[firewood]

It’s kind of hard to believe that someone “destined for great things” could not find ANY other company in tech that wanted them.

Forstall doesn't need any other company. He could easily afford to fund his very own startup, if he wanted, as Jobs did with Next after getting punted from Apple management. Seems to prefer broadway plays, instead. Not the very worst plan. Jobs made his biggest fortune off of movies about toys.

 

[firewood]

An ARM CPU could bring benefits a‘plenty. But, ... will likely sell much less as you would have fewer folks buying a Mac as an upgrade of a currently owned Mac (with a potentially incompatible software library).

But if a hypothetical ARM MacBook X was offered in additon to Intel MacBooks, instead of as a replacement, the expanded offering could increase sales by offering a consumer more choices: the current line plus some newer, lighter weight models with better battery life at a potentially lower price (no Intel tax, no Qualcomm tax), as well as similar performance for basic Apple applications, plus a growing list of (fat binary) App Store apps. Plus a large number of iOS and Android developers would snap them up for improved simulation/emulation during development. Might even capture a portion of the educational market, where bootcamp Wintel video gaming compatibility is a distracting downside.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I mean what other company could offer the same level of satisfaction from work than shipping Apple products?

Again, any of them. If he was truly as great as folks say he is, he could be amazing anywhere. Unfortunately, Steve Jobs didn’t teach him how to be an effective leader, he was only valuable as long as his friend was around to protect him.

As a result, after 6 years, he doesn’t provide any value to Apple anymore.

Forstall doesn't need any other company. He could easily afford to fund his very own startup, if he wanted, as Jobs did with Next after getting punted from Apple management. Seems to prefer broadway plays, instead. Not the very worst plan.

For him personally, not the worst plan. But I think we can agree that someone doing broadway plays doesn’t necessarily have a place at Apple anymore. I don’t understand folks when they say they’d like to see him return. Maybe to produce one of the Apple Park events?

 

[Unregistered 4U]

But if a hypothetical ARM MacBook X was offered in additon to Intel MacBooks, instead of as a replacement, the expanded offering could increase sales by offering a consumer more choices: the current line plus some newer, lighter weight models with better battery life at a potentially lower price (no Intel tax, no Qualcomm tax), as well as similar performance for basic Apple applications, plus a growing list of (fat binary) App Store apps. Plus a large number of iOS and Android developers would snap them up for improved simulation/emulation during development. Might even capture a portion of the educational market, where bootcamp Wintel video gaming compatibility is a distracting downside.

I think ARM and Intel will exist side by side just like PowerPC and Intel existed side by side. The entire line didn’t transition all at once, they did one system at a time until they were all done. And, because iOS devices are more computer than a lot of folks need, I’m confident the low end ARMacOS systems will be more macOS computer than most folks need, regardless of how it benchmarks against Intel at the time. That “side by side” may only exist for 2020, though. Come 2021, I doubt Apple will continuing with Intel systems.

 

[dogslobber]

Again, any of them. If he was truly as great as folks say he is, he could be amazing anywhere. Unfortunately, Steve Jobs didn’t teach him how to be an effective leader, he was only valuable as long as his friend was around to protect him.

As a result, after 6 years, he doesn’t provide any value to Apple anymore.

Scott still has many friends internally at Apple who are offended with how he was pushed out. It's possibly the biggest scandal at Apple since 2011.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Scott still has many friends internally at Apple who are offended with how he was pushed out.

Almost everyone that has ever been let go from anywhere has people that personally like them but would never want to work with them. Who knows, maybe Forstall tried to do the Jobs thing and get people to leave with him but everyone knew that, without Steve around to rein him in, he'd not be a boss they wanted to work for.

 

[Maximara]

“I used to work here, but really haven’t done anything with tech in about 6 years”?

Reminds me of an old political joke my history teach told us back in the 1980's

Teacher: There is a new toy on the market
Class: What is it?
Teacher: It's an Eisenhower doll
Class: What's it do?
Teacher: You wind up it and it does nothing for 8 years.

Heck, even the man's Presidential Library barely mentions his presidency (when I went there it consisted of a single panel on a average sized wall). Yes, given what was going on in the world back then he was likely the best man for the job but the world has moved on.

And like the world the tech market has moved along and if you haven't done anything in it for 6 freaking years then odds are you are so behind the curve it isn't funny and no sane company would pay you for a top level position in that field.

 

[theorist9]

My opinion is that folks don’t like the Mac form factor and much prefer the size and features that come with iOS. That, and to some degree, price, is why iOS outsells macOS by a huge margin.

I'll be honest. As a Mac user, I get tired of people blithely asserting that "folks don't like the Mac form factor" when they've not bothered to actually check the data.

According to https://www.statista.com/statistics/382260/segments-share-revenue-of-apple/, averaging over all four quarters of 2019, 10.1% of Apple's revene came from Macs, while 8.2% came from iPads. This means people are spending 21% more of their hard-earned dollars on Macs than on iPads. That's hardly people 'not liking the Mac form factor'. At least when they vote with their wallets. Yes, unit sales of iPads are larger, but they cost less.

Granted, I've left out iPhones, but they aren't fundamentally computational devices, but rather communication devices. If we're talking preferred form factor for computational devices (devices for actually getting work done, which is the context in which you and cmaier were having your disagreement), then it's iPad vs. Mac.

In any event, the data I provided directly contradict your contention that "folks don't like the Mac form factor".

 

[Unregistered 4U]

the data I provided directly contradict your contention that "folks don't like the Mac form factor".

and much prefer the size and features that come with iOS. which is inarguably true. AND, considering that we both agree that the number of individuals choosing iOS is greater than the number of individuals that choose macOS, you’re supporting my point. I even added the same point you did “and to some degree, price, is why iOS outsells macOS by a huge margin.”

Even if you refer ONLY to iPadOS, iPads by themselves are outselling not just mobile Macs, but all Macs combined. Some folks prefer the mobile form factor to the desktop systems, some like that they’re lighter than mobile macOS systems, some like the ‘always on’ internet options provided to iPadOS... there’s lots of reasons why, but looking at the numbers it’s clear that folks voting with their wallets are voting for iPadOS.