Apple Silicon: The Complete Guide

[GFLPraxis]

i know this forum is oddly excited about this idea, but i would much rather apple keep the higher tiers with intel processors.

It's not odd, I get it entirely. I still kind of want to maintain Intel for Windows 10 dual booting (yes, there's Windows 10 on ARM today, but it can only run 32-bit intel binaries under emulation, I suspect it would perform pretty badly for stuff like games) and VM compatibility (good luck running Windows Server or other things under VMs if they don't make an ARM release). There's a professional segment that uses this.


But...with the low end $300-500 iPads beating Apple's low end MacBooks in performance and the $1k iPad Pro in line with the much, much more expensive MacBook Pros...I can definitely see why people are fantasizing about this change. Imagine an MBP with similar or higher performance with no fans and thinner than an Air.

 

[Darth Tulhu]

Can someone explain to me why the first ARM iMac won’t be just like a massive iPad Pro on a stand? Given how powerful, cool and silent iPad Pros are now, that seems entirely possible to me.

Because the Surface Studio exists, and Apple only "invents"...

But seriously, the iMac is long overdue this transformation, I think. I have long contended that out of all Apple's existing machines, the iMac is the one to do this on. It already has the "i" in the name!

I truly believe the iMac Pro is a placeholder because Apple refused for the longest time to give pros a real workhorse and they needed...something. Now that the overkill Mac is coming, they should divert resources to making the mini just the Macintosh, get rid of the iMac "pro", and turn the iMac into another iDevice.

However, as I said before, Tim's not a product guy. He's a profit guy.

The margins on the iMac (and all other products) as it is today may not be worth the effort to turn it into something truly remarkable, like the Surface Studio is.

Tim's not trying to change the world like Steve was, and get their devices in as many hands as possible.

He's trying to make money, and WINNING at it by driving prices skyward and keeping products the same FOREVER, knowing Apple fans will pay ANYTHING. He figured out his sweet-spot target market is the upper middle and high class.

 

[bladerunner2000]

Frankly, I'd rather see Apple use the new 7nm TSMC-made AMD Ryzen CPUs.

Apple would first have to have some respect for it's consumer to do that. It'll never happen, even though it should.

 

[dogslobber]

Apple's problem is the lack of a lean OS on ARM given the bloat in OS X today. What they should do is reset back to 10.6 and bring back Forstall to lead the ARM based OS X derivative. A win-win for Apple and the customer.

 

[jlocker]

Remember Apple use to be part of the Power PC consortium which a A chip is like the daughter of the old PowerPC days being a RISC processor. But by having Intel as a partner they can not be accused of a monopoly on processors. Intel has great processors and a lot of people know x86 code. Why did Sony stop using a PowerPC after the PS3? Because game programmers knew the x86 microcode better than the RISC microcode. That is why the PS4 is the new 2 all time selling console in history and the PS5 is going to be a x86 machine as well. It is known very well by programmers. Plus you can do bootcamp on it and run windows 10 if you want.

 

[BaltimoreMediaBlog]

Plus, it’s not like releasing an ARM Mac Pro in the future would kill the system anyone’s using. All your software, plug-ins, everything still just go on working. At some point in the future, they’ll drop Intel like they dropped PowerPC before it.

I disagree with this part. Have you tried watching any video online on a PowerPC Mac lately? Sure, all the old software still works for my parents except things like seeing pics or video in email or watching any video online. Quicktime still works fine, but today's Youtube is a bust on PowerPC Macs unless I'm doing it all wrong on my parent's old machine, which I still maintain for them.

And then there's the banks and other secure sites simply not accepting the older PowerPC browsers. Sure, my PowerMac G5 is still a beast at running at running Quake 4 w/ an upgraded graphics card, but some of the very basics are busted forever. The only advantage old Intel Macs have is that they could be repurposed simply as Windows 10 machines, which Microsoft will still update. But not Apple.

 

[___joshuaturner]

with Apple also perhaps able to cut down on the size of some of the internal components, thus perhaps allowing for slimmer devices.

Who is asking for thinner MacBooks?

 

[ad1815]

Assuming that there is enough synergy between the Arm processor for Mac and for iPhone, the cost of Arm based Mac will be lower. If Apple is willing to pass on the cost saving to customers, they will be able to lower Mac's price. With a more competitively priced Mac, Apple might achieve something Steve Jobs did not manage - increasing Mac's market share to double digits.

Also these days applications are not that critical to computers any more. I spent most of my time within browsers at home, or within Outlook at office. With the bundled applications in Mac, most people won't need to install anything. Support of iOS application will make it even less an issue.

Additionally, Apple now has the option to implement legacy support in hardware. I suppose Apple today has much better development tools than when it transitioned from PowerPC to x86. So the transition will likely be smoother.

Support for Windows might be an issue. But there is one more option these days - cloud based Windows. I won't be surprised if Apple allows user to create a Windows terminal in Azure directly within App Store.

At last, Mac is not critical to Apple's bottom line any more, so it can afford to take some risks. It is pretty sure that Apple will stop make any x86 based Mac. Apple needs to show the eco system that it is fully confident in its Arm based Mac to succeed.

 

[techwhiz]

Another advantage of ARM and a custom chip is that Intel is $crewing everyone on price. The switch could easily shave $500 off the price of a Mac laptop making them much more price competitive while still keeping margins. The savings on iMacs could be even more. Oddly bad time to introduce the 2019 Mac Pro as the biggest baddest Intel machine you can buy, but if it has a 10 year life span like the old tower, who knows. Apple may split MBA's to ARM, a slow tranistion on MBP's as they know devs just can't instantly recompile code and it will work. This is especially true for apps that have assembly code written sections for anything from optimized image routine rendering to device drivers that have to run as fast as possible. It wouldn't be the last time apple has changed procs and it was mostly not too bad from the user perspective. it took a while for it to happen, but for devs is was a LOT of extra work, which apple seems to like giving them

I find this argument about price always interesting.
As the die increases so Dows the cost. It's not a linear increase because the increase in failure is not linear.
Thinking that Apple will be able to compete on CPU price when they don't own the fab. Will need to absorb a higher failure rate, etc.; is just humorous.

The cost of that ARM processor is going to go up real high.
64 lanes of PCIe, embedded desktop graphics, larger caches, virtualization support, etc...
Opps, now you have a real processor.
Once again, people should check out Ampere and compare the cost of a real server class ARM processor that needs to go in something like a Mac Pro.

I for one, will not buy a Mac that is not Intel compatible because I use VM's in my job and if it can't run the tools I need I won't buy it. My company would immediately stop buying Macs if RedHat or CentOS won't run in a VM.

If Apple wants to kill the Mac, switch to ARM.

 

[Whathappened]

I'm excited about the transition as ARM chips get more powerful. Truth be told, a lot of computational heavy tasks these days seem to be be offloaded onto GP-GPUs. 68000 to PowerPC to Intel to ARM.... if anyone can pull off a transition of this magnitude it's Apple.

That being said, if the year was 1998-2010, i'd be more confident in Apple. Today, I worry that they might throw an ARM CPU into Macs and just to market an ability to run iOS Apps or the Mac with touchscreens or something along those lines.

Interesting, especially as I really don’t see how you got to that view, when I think of how successful Apple was during the years AFTER 2010.

 

[RogerWilco]

TSMC is going to a 3 nm process by 2022, IOW 1/4 the power draw of the current 7 nm A-series. Seems they could easily cram 16 cores along with some coprocessors on a SoC that would match the performance of any intel laptop CPU.

 

[CarlJ]

Doing the same thing on ARM, which would presumably be slower rather than massively faster, would be really, really painful.

Why do you presume this?

 

[AppleMad98004]

I have no doubt an arm-based Mac will allow Apple to provide a better experience overall, but I have two concerns: The first is running Windows/Parallels, how will that work, if at all? And second, will this mean that Apple will move to a controlled-app ecosystem like iOS?

My guess is they won't be able to run Windows/Linux since there are no virtual machines like that for iOS running say Andriod or even Windows Mobile. Apple may not want that market anymore since Windows/Chrome laptops are so cheap.

 

[Realityck]

i know this forum is oddly excited about this idea, but i would much rather apple keep the higher tiers with intel processors.

Agreed!

I know this topic keeps coming up but its the business needs that outweigh people just thinking this would be cool to get away from intel. The Mac's are very versatile running a modern 64 bit OS with separate system and data volumes. You can run Windows as well as a number of other environments. So now that you have i9 CPU's as well as other WS processors with better graphics, we go back to dumbing down on A13 iOS environments as comparable. Bah don't blow it after this marathon to get to a full 64 bit OS with ARM suggestions.

 

[ssgbryan]

Any particular reason you'd care to elaborate on, or just general resistance to change? If the end result is more stable Macs, with better developer support, more regular releases and decent performance improvements, why on Earth not?

Better developer support? more regular releases - do you understand how software is actually developed?

Software houses are on a 2 - 3 year development cycle - If an Arm Mac was released tomorrow, it would be anywhere from 2 - 4 years (Version 2.0 - version 1.0 will be nothing more than a straight port) before you would have something that takes full "advantage" of whatever it is that Arm brings to the table.

Apple dropping 32-bit support was a major reason why my next system will be an AMD based solution. I'm not replacing half of my production workflow because Timmy needs a little extra jingle money.

Would you be willing to put all of your bet-your-business software on version 1.0?

Some of us do real work (my system - see sig, isn't enough, and I am a hobbyist), and Arm hasn't shown it can deliver. If you can survive with iPad levels of performance, by all means, move to an iPad.

I remember the PPC to Intel transition - it took years to actually get my software converted, and a lot of programs I depended on never made the transition, which is why I stayed on 10.6.8 until the release of 10.10.

As small as Apple's PC marketshare actually is, many software houses will simply drop support for Mac. I know that most products in my workflow won't be ported.

 

[jlocker]

Assuming that there is enough synergy between the Arm processor for Mac and for iPhone, the cost of Arm based Mac will be lower. If Apple is willing to pass on the cost saving to customers, they will be able to lower Mac's price. With a more competitively priced Mac, Apple might achieve something Steve Jobs did not manage - increasing Mac's market share to double digits.

Also these days applications are not that critical to computers any more. I spent most of my time within browsers at home, or within Outlook at office. With the bundled applications in Mac, most people won't need to install anything. Support of iOS application will make it even less an issue.

Additionally, Apple now has the option to implement legacy support in hardware. I suppose Apple today has much better development tools than when it transitioned from PowerPC to x86. So the transition will likely be smoother.

Support for Windows might be an issue. But there is one more option these days - cloud based Windows. I won't be surprised if Apple allows user to create a Windows terminal in Azure directly within App Store.

At last, Mac is not critical to Apple's bottom line any more, so it can afford to take some risks. It is pretty sure that Apple will stop make any x86 based Mac. Apple needs to show the eco system that it is fully confident in its Arm based Mac to succeed.

Going to be a long time before Apple can reach a Cooper Lake

Xeon Platinum 9282

56 / 112

2.6 / 3.8

77 MB

400W

With 56 cores and 112 threads on one chip and you can put two chips together on a logic board for 112 cores and 224 threads.

 

[Whathappened]

If they stop supporting a 2 year old machine for the transition they’re finished as far as I’m concerned. My wife’s 10! Year old Toshiba laptop runs the latest version of Windows 10 X64 absolutely fine. Apple have no excuse at all.

Crappy OS on an crappy, old computer, no wonder that works!
Just kidding and do not worry, there won’t be a reason not to support two year young machines anymore.
There are a lot of 3rd party software vendors, too, and they have an interest to sell the software people have computer OSs for. And that will be one of Apple’s key interests, too.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Mac delays caused by Intel delays have been shown to be complete BS, in most cases. Mac releases are delayed because Apple takes their sweet time refreshing their hardware, and, in the meantime, sells out of date hardware at new prices. Intel’s fault, indeed.

Exactly. It's funny how Intel gets blamed whenever Apple doesn't update a particular Mac for a long time.

If Intel has a huge delay... wouldn't Dell be delayed too? And HP? And Lenovo? And Asus? And Acer?

Basically ALL the PC manufacturers???

Intel provides processors for the ENTIRE computer industry. Let's not forget that. And yes... Intel has had some problems.

But seriously... Intel wasn't the reason the Mac Mini and Macbook Air weren't updated in 4 years.

We didn't hear "Dell XPS 15 delayed... blames Intel..." Did we?

 

[brinary001]

The processor conversation aside, this is one of @jclo's best articles imo. Very informative and balanced.

 

[Whathappened]

Better developer support? more regular releases - do you understand how software is actually developed?

Software houses are on a 2 - 3 year development cycle - If an Arm Mac was released tomorrow, it would be anywhere from 2 - 4 years (Version 2.0 - version 1.0 will be nothing more than a straight port) before you would have something that takes full "advantage" of whatever it is that Arm brings to the table.

Apple dropping 32-bit support was a major reason why my next system will be an AMD based solution. I'm not replacing half of my production workflow because Timmy needs a little extra jingle money.

Would you be willing to put all of your bet-your-business software on version 1.0?

Some of us do real work (my system - see sig, isn't enough, and I am a hobbyist), and Arm hasn't shown it can deliver. If you can survive with iPad levels of performance, by all means, move to an iPad.

I remember the PPC to Intel transition - it took years to actually get my software converted, and a lot of programs I depended on never made the transition, which is why I stayed on 10.6.8 until the release of 10.10.

As small as Apple's PC marketshare actually is, many software houses will simply drop support for Mac. I know that most products in my workflow won't be ported.

Your work isn’t more “real” than other people’s work, so please don’t be so ignorant.
Obviously you have no problem with living in the past, but following you logic, mankind would never be able to improve.
You are a small minority, people like you will most likely have no measurable effect on Apple, when you go and buy amd.
Don’t get me wrong, I strongly support the idea that there should be offerings for people like you.
Hope you will be as happy with your amd as most people will continue to be with their Macs.

 

[dspdoc]

Better developer support? more regular releases - do you understand how software is actually developed?

Software houses are on a 2 - 3 year development cycle - If an Arm Mac was released tomorrow, it would be anywhere from 2 - 4 years (Version 2.0 - version 1.0 will be nothing more than a straight port) before you would have something that takes full "advantage" of whatever it is that Arm brings to the table.

Apple dropping 32-bit support was a major reason why my next system will be an AMD based solution. I'm not replacing half of my production workflow because Timmy needs a little extra jingle money.

Would you be willing to put all of your bet-your-business software on version 1.0?

Some of us do real work (my system - see sig, isn't enough, and I am a hobbyist), and Arm hasn't shown it can deliver. If you can survive with iPad levels of performance, by all means, move to an iPad.

I remember the PPC to Intel transition - it took years to actually get my software converted, and a lot of programs I depended on never made the transition, which is why I stayed on 10.6.8 until the release of 10.10.

As small as Apple's PC marketshare actually is, many software houses will simply drop support for Mac. I know that most products in my workflow won't be ported.

I too lived through the PPC - Intel NIGHTMARE! I don't think a lot of the "kids" on here experienced that disaster. I suspect a transition to Arm will be very similar. I think you are right as well that some devs will just drop Apple. I personally am getting tired of Apple's internal instability and greed.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

I disagree with this part. Have you tried watching any video online on a PowerPC Mac lately?

I meant specifically for those with serious business needs. Just like there are folks running their businesses just fine on an un-upgraded PowerPC (because it runs the software they need) there will be folks in the future running on Intel, the limitation that they will ONLY be able to reliably use the software that was last released for it. To do “consumer” stuff, you’ll need to get a separate system.

 

[cppguy]

Windows 10 on the Surface Pro X can emulate 32-bit x86 apps, and support for x64 is coming soon supposedly.

Not so. Check "Surface Pro X app compatibility", it says "x64 apps won't work". There was an article explaining how emulating x64 on ARM64 is a virtually unsolvable problem. Windows general manager Erin Chapple revealed for zdnet early 2018 that this issue will never be resolved. The technical hurdle is just too big to address. And that stance still hasn't changed, and will probably never change. Never say never, but extremely unlikely.

No question that Microsoft is trying to move to the ARM direction, but it's not an ideal platform for professional apps. At least not until AutoCAD, Solid Works, Premier, Illustrator, Photoshop and others are rebuilt and proven on ARM.

It's unclear whether Apple will release macOS for ARM, like a MacBook Airm . They might stick to the decision to strictly separate the iPad Pro and the macOS platforms.

They need to be careful, there's a very fine line between a successful platform and a failed one. Microsoft has kept failing repeatedly. It's a very tough problem. What matters is not just how good the product is, but the perception of the potential buyers. Professionals need to be reassured that they won't be neglected. The only way I see this happen is releasing a completely redesigned Intel MacBook Pro and a MacBook Airm at the same time, hinting that both platforms are taken seriously. They cannot release an ARM Mac and not reassure people.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

ATV 4K is using the A10X

Ok, so there. could potentially be less fan noise with an A13x.

 

[npmacuser5]

Not sure why one would be concerned what processor under the hood in today’s technology world. Comes down too, does the system meet one’s requirements. Apple has a good track record with their IOS devices. Today, less opportunity to build or modify ones hardware, seems a mute point to worry about it.