Apple Silicon: The Complete Guide

[baryon]

So many questions though....

• Will the new Mac Pro and 16" MacBook Pro be Intel at release? If not, why release them as Intel right before the transition?
• What will happen to those who buy current Intel Macs, will their computers lose support for new, now "ARM Only" applications faster than usual?
• What happens to current applications, like Adobe Creative Cloud and all the other stuff when ARM computers come out? We've seen how Adobe still couldn't transition over to 64 bit, I bet they will have even more trouble with the ARM transition. While this may be laziness on their part, the customer is still the one who suffers from it.
• Will all current Intel apps immediately be compatible without the developer doing a thing, or will it take years and years until lazy developers finally release ARM versions of their apps, but with new bugs and lacking features just like they did with the PPC/Intel transition?
• Will there be an emulator like Rosetta that bridges the gap between the old and new software, albeit at the cost of performance? In other words, will it be the PPC/Intel transition all over again?
• Will ARM chips be suitable for something as power hungry as the Mac Pro? Or will some computers remain Intel for longer due to ARM not being high-end enough?
• Will we lose Windows Boot Camp support?
• The iPad Pro may be "almost as fast as the MacBook Pro" but that means nothing if it can't run any of the applications that you'd compare the two with. The iPad Pro may process meaningless raw binary numbers nearly as fast as the MBP, but if you threw Premiere Pro or DaVinci Resolve at it, what would happen?

 

[intelligence]

Reading this thread really scares me. I for one use my computer to do actual work (developing websites to be precise). Seems like people are suggesting working with iOS apps and even in browser applications is a good idea. Might be a good idea for whatever work (or social media browsing/media consumption) you’re doing, but it won’t work for me, not with the current lackluster state of iPadOS/iOS anyway. Most professional apps on those OS’ seems more like trial software, missing important functionality that’s available on macOS.

Hope this transition is a couple of years away, because it’s not a plausible alternative for the professional work I do with my laptop.

 

[needsomecoffee]

Fine with Catalyst. Wish Apple had some signal that PWAs are also a priority. MSFT is building Chromium into Windows, and has been investing a lot in releasing JS apps so we know Nadella is going there.

 

[code-m]

Maybe the MacBook Air first? Ideal place to start probably given it's goals as a product, weight, battery life emphasis, performance needs, etc.

There is a reason why Apple dropped and did not update the retina MacBook while some presumed it was replaced with the 2018 retina MacBook Air, the case can be made that Apple has been hinting that the Ax series chips for the last few years have desktop class performance something tells me it will do so with the introduction the one first A MacBook. Provided with project Catalyst to have some popular apps for initial launch excitement and slowly roll the remaining catalogue.

I suspect similar to the next iPad Pro the A MacBook will come with an A13 or 14 chip and 8GB LPDDR4 RAM along with 128GB base storage inching up to 1TB. This move will initially place pressure on intel, however Apple's goal is to be self sustaining and launch hardware when ready.

Given the iPhone line gets an annual update, iPad Pro get a 18 month to 2 year update, the A MacBook may see a 2 year to 4 year update cycle max if not something sooner similar to the iPad Pro.

Only question remains if the A MacBook receives a touchscreen and if that happens then its redundant to have an iPad Pro line considering the remaining of the iPad line has received pencil and keyboard support plus iPadOS receiving mouse support via Assistant.

I would welcome this move while keeping the MacBook Air x64 for the transitional period.

 

[symphony]

This is incorrect. See their guidelines:

Do not alter the spelling or form of Arm's trademarks by abbreviating them, creating acronyms, translating them, joining them to other words, symbols or numbers (either as one word or with a hyphen - unless otherwise permitted, e.g. Arm® Cortex®-A15), or using improper capitalization. However, permitted capitalization occurs when using an Arm word trademark in headlines, titles or text where all of the surrounding words are shown in uppercase characters. In this situation, you may use the relevant Arm trademark in uppercase characters, provided that such use complies with these guidelines.

Wow it’s not an acronym????????????? I’m so wrong, I rescind my previous comment.

 

[cppguy]

Not sure why one would be concerned what processor under the hood in today’s technology world.

The average person isn't concerned, they just want apps to work. We're enthusiasts here, and we know that a platform is useless without apps. Those who're just watching Youtube and browsing Facebook won't care. Many of us want serious apps, Photoshop, Capture One, Visual Studio, Xcode, Premier, AutoCAD. All of these have to be developed, which is nearly impossible if Apple is keeping the transition secret. At some point they need to publicly reveal the new platform, to give time for developers.

This is not 2002 anymore, they cannot cut Intel overnight. And most likely they cannot emulate x64, either. I'm absolutely sure that Apple is not going to abandon the Intel customers. Yes, they abandoned 32-bit, but only after a decade, and many people are not happy.

Professionals cannot use unsupported platforms, because they rely on periodic updates and fixes. They would not release an Intel Mac Pro unless they were committed to Intel for the time being. ARM on the side is possible, but Intel won't be neglected.

 

[JayKay514]

You might want to check out their website. Aside from their logo being all lowercase, when they describe themselves on their own website, it is always referred to as "Arm", never "ARM".

Yeah, they rebranded in 2017 from ARM to Arm Holdings. There are still a few incidences of ARM on the website (probably older articles) but logically, they've turned an initialism (A-R-M, pronounced ay are em, similar to FBI) into an acronym (pronounced as a word, 'arm') and then doing that peculiarly British thing of only capitalizing the first letter in the acronym (like Unicef, Unesco, Defra, Nasa, Nato). It's consistent, but tbh it just looks really weird after we've seen the all-caps version for 20+ years.
[automerge]1572994757[/automerge]

Wow it’s not an acronym????????????? I’m so wrong, I rescind my previous comment.

It is an acronym. It's just that they don't use all-caps for it. British newspapers started doing this about a decade ago, but the trend hasn't caught on in North America.

 

[code-m]

Reading this thread really scares me. I for one use my computer to do actual work (developing websites to be precise). Seems like people are suggesting working with iOS apps and even in browser applications is a good idea. Might be a good idea for whatever work (or social media browsing/media consumption) you’re doing, but it won’t work for me, not with the current lackluster state of iPadOS/iOS anyway. Most professional apps on those OS’ seems more like trial software, missing important functionality that’s available on macOS.

Hope this transition is a couple of years away, because it’s not a plausible alternative for the professional work I do with my laptop.

Your present concerns are valid, however that is all dependant on the present hardware form factor and the OS artificial limitation placed by Apple. You have to understand that with iPadOS Apple is flirting outright that it is ready to mature iOS into a desktop class experience. Some people are placing the present limitations to future hardware and OS capabilities, this is unfortunate it is similar to the famous saying of Wayne Gretzky, "don't skate to where the puck is but rather to where it is going" these words are quite true for what Apple is trying to accomplish and has been in the works for year. It is not a Cook project but a project that started with the intention of iPad under Jobs. If we compare the iPod and what it transformed into an app on the iPhone and just continuing with this process.

 

[symphony]

Yeah, they rebranded in 2017 from ARM to Arm Holdings. There are still a few incidences of ARM on the website (probably older articles) but logically, they've turned an initialism (A-R-M, pronounced ay are em, similar to FBI) into an acronym (pronounced as a word, 'arm') and then doing that peculiarly British thing of only capitalizing the first letter in the acronym (like Unicef, Unesco, Defra, Nasa, Nato). It's consistent, but tbh it just looks really weird after we've seen the all-caps version for 20+ years.
[automerge]1572994757[/automerge]


It is an acronym. It's just that they don't use all-caps for it. British newspapers started doing this about a decade ago, but the trend hasn't caught on in North America.

Oh, that makes sense. I just googled it and they’re all capital letters.

I rescind that second comment, and reinstate my first comment.

 

[RadioHedgeFund]

Given the damning reviews of the Surface Pro X I don’t think Apple will be in a hurry to adopt ARM in computers unless people start buying iMacs to run iPad apps 🤨

 

[JayKay514]

Reading this thread really scares me. I for one use my computer to do actual work (developing websites to be precise). Seems like people are suggesting working with iOS apps and even in browser applications is a good idea. Might be a good idea for whatever work (or social media browsing/media consumption) you’re doing, but it won’t work for me, not with the current lackluster state of iPadOS/iOS anyway. Most professional apps on those OS’ seems more like trial software, missing important functionality that’s available on macOS.

Hope this transition is a couple of years away, because it’s not a plausible alternative for the professional work I do with my laptop.

When you say 'developing websites' are you doing front-end HTML/CSS or large-scale JS apps (Node? Transpiled from TypeScript?) or old-school CGI gateway DLLs / EXEs?

I've done a lot of quote-unquote 'serious' web development in CodePen when I didn't want to deal with command-line task runner setup; plenty of coding apps are written on Electron or derivatives thereof. I mean, it's *possible* to have a serious app that uses a web-based front end, and there are iOS native terminal apps and coding apps.

That said, I agree with you, that if you need CPU / GPU power, and space for a local dev environment with a moderately large DB, and the flexibility to serve a page over a local network etc, even an iPad Pro is a little bit lacking.

I would be interested to see that design scaled up into something closer to a MacBook Pro, with 16-32GB system RAM + minimum 256GB storage, and some of the thermal constraints lifted for speed / power. I think MacOS on ARM could be a winner given how close it gets to Intel even in its constrained configuration.

 

[HVDynamo]

Windows has actually told us they will release a Surface device on ARM running Windows, so they will be compatible.

Maybe Windows itself will eventually, but what about all the apps I use on Windows, 99% of those don't support ARM today.

 

[Rigby]

It looks like Intel is finally over the hump when it comes to 10nm yields, which should end the relatively slow pace of performance-, and, possibly more important, efficiency-improvements of the last few years. I hope Apple stays with Intel for their Mac products because x86 compatibility makes many things easier. Microsoft's ARM experiments didn't go too well.

 

[acorntoy]

Where are you getting those Geekbench scores from? The numbers seem too high:

View attachment 875162

looks like Geekbench 4.

 

[HVDynamo]

And what about making their own X86 chips? Like AMD does. Would that be impossible? With know how from Ax series of their own chips.

They can't, Intel owns x86, and they have only licensed it out to AMD. They show no interest in licensing it out further, and the license to AMD becomes void if someone buys AMD as well.

 

[ssgbryan]

Your work isn’t more “real” than other people’s work, so please don’t be so ignorant.
Obviously you have no problem with living in the past, but following you logic, mankind would never be able to improve.
You are a small minority, people like you will most likely have no measurable effect on Apple, when you go and buy amd.
Don’t get me wrong, I strongly support the idea that there should be offerings for people like you.
Hope you will be as happy with your amd as most people will continue to be with their Macs.

Going to an AMD system isn't living in the past - that would be buying any current, or in the case of the 7,1, upcoming mac. I need horsepower - my workflow is built around cores and ram (there is no such thing as too much) - not the ability to run Candy Crush on my workstation.

Buying stuff for the sake of buying stuff is pretty stupid. If newer software doesn't make my workflow more productive, there is no reason to buy newer software. Nothing has been added to later versions of Creative Suite or Adobe Acrobat that I need. A 64-bit version of ZBrush isn't actually going to make my workflow any faster - it will simply be another $500 expense. Replacing my 32-bit modeler means I have to learn an entirely new product. Replacing my 32-bit outdoor scene generator is not only an additional added expense, it is also a major slowdown while I learn a new system. I am not doing that as a hobbyist, and I can pretty much guarantee that it is less likely to happen in a professional workflow.

That could change at some point in the future, but right now, I am not replacing everything for the sake of being an unpaid beta tester on an unproven hardware platform version 1.0 software on version 1.0 hardware - that is the way to madness.

3d creatives aren't replacing their entire workflow - It will be easier (and much cheaper, not to mention more productive) to move to a Windows based workflow than to move to an Arm workflow - I am sure Arm will one day get some horsepower, but that day isn't tomorrow, and the next day isn't looking too good either.

I am dumping Macs, because at the end of the day, Tim Cook's Apple no longer provides a computer with the horsepower I need - Sorry, but the 7,1 is $1,500 dollars of parts, which, outside of the CPU are EoL technology. A $4,500 Apple tax is just a bit too much.

Have fun with Candy Crush levels of software.

 

[JayKay514]

Who is asking for thinner MacBooks?

Honestly? I have an Air and a recent MBP. The MBP is more powerful but weighs like 3x as much. When you travel for work or even just lug a laptop around between meetings, it adds up. When I switched back to the Air for a week while the MBP was in the shop for a minor repair, I felt like Superman lifting a car above my head. If we could get MBP power/performance in an Air's footprint, sign me up.

 

[scaramoosh]

I hope never, as for me it'll be the death of Mac, that final nail. I can never upgrade OS.... I use too many 32bit programs, so for me I'll have to switch to Windows anyways.

 

[JayKay514]

Why did Sony stop using a PowerPC after the PS3? Because game programmers knew the x86 microcode better than the RISC microcode.

Well, to be fair, the PS3 was a really complicated machine. The Cell processor was essentially a general-purpose PowerPC RISC core combined with six 'Power Processing Element' coprocessors, and in the original version, also had the entire chipset of a PS2 onboard for the backwards compatibility feature. It was really hard to program, even though on paper it was incredibly powerful. It was really only towards the end of the PS3's run that studios learned to take advantage of it.

To be fair, it's not the PowerPC per se. The Xbox 360, GameCube, Wii and Wii U were all based on PowerPC variants and we didn't hear about programmers having issues with them at the time... it's just that the PS3 was over-ambitious and over-complicated in its system design.

 

[Poisednoise]

Arm chips have historically been seen as not powerful because x86 chips are designed for more robust desktop machines while Arm chips are designed more for lower power applications like mobile devices. Arm has historically focused on power efficiency, while Intel has historically focused on maximizing performance.

This is a bizarre claim. It may be the case in the recent past, but historically, not so. Anyone who remembers the extraordinary power of RiscOS on the Acorn Archimedes knows how powerful Arm chips can be. I had a CompSci friend at university with an Archimedes in the early 90s, and that thing could give the University Unix mainframe a run for its money in certain applications. The notation package Sibelius was developed on the Archimedes and only ported to the PC and Mac five years later because at the time of development (1993) no other architecture could repaginate notation on the fly effectively.

Yes, because of their energy efficiency Arm chips have ended up being used in portable devices, but that's not their progeny. They had (and still have) the capacity to be stupidly fast and powerful chips.

 

[Marx55]

Intel x86 is a must for true compatibility with the rest of the world (x86 Windows). For instance, when using Microsoft Office applications, EndNote, VMware Fusion to run Windows, etc. If Apple switches Macs to ARM, we will be forced to switch to Windows. A shame for all!

 

[JayKay514]

Intel x86 is a must for true compatibility with the rest of the world (x86 Windows). For instance, when using Microsoft Office applications, EndNote, VMware Fusion to run Windows, etc. If Apple switches Macs to ARM, we will be forced to switch to Windows. A shame for all!

Well, yes and no. Modern Office file formats are a superset of XML and are cross-platform (They have Office for iOS!) So you should be able to exchange files between desktop, tablet, phone, and Office 365 no problem.

VMWare Fusion? Yes. That will be an issue.

I suspect the solution will be to 1) buy a small PC to run those apps or 2) there will be some sort of combination of Remote Desktop + a cloud based Windows PC or VM, using streaming technology to minimize lag.

Google uses this kind of technology for their Stadia gaming platform, and both Sony and Microsoft have deployed similar things for 'virtual consoles', so if there is sufficient cloud architecture (with local servers, a good CDN, etc.) it ought to be relatively easy to do the same for desktop apps.

 

[joiwomcow]

The reviews for Microsoft's Surface Pro X are pretty dismal:

Microsoft Surface Pro X review: heartbreaker

Better than expected isn’t enough

www.theverge.com

Emulation of Windows x86-native apps is just plain slow. So it runs "full windows," at netbook pace.
I know, I know, Apple's ARM chips are better, but the fact remains, in the initial years, only a small amount of first party software will run at an acceptable speed. There will be the apps ported over from ipad, but these don't come close to covering what's available on OSX.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

The only thing I’ll need to know if this comes to a future MacBook Pro, is can I still virtualise Windows? Non-negotiatiable, mission critical requirement.

I would guess no, but that’s only because when you check Apple’s website, there’s no mention of emulation or virtualization on any of their product pages. It USED to be at least on the pages for the Pro machines, but it’s a feature that I would bet they don’t plan to support in the future.

 

[cppguy]

If you're curious about the possibility of x86 emulation, just check out the Surface Pro X review on theverge.com. On paper, x86 32-bit emulation should have virtually no performance penalty, but the reality is disappointing. And x64 apps don't work at all. Apple is not going to do this unless they're sure that the performance is great and apps can be transitioned quickly. Even then they're not going to drop Intel support anytime soon.

If an ARM Mac was released, the it would take at least 1 year before the major software developers like Adobe could transition. It would take very little effort for small developers to recompile their simple apps. The biggest hurdle by far would be VMware / Parallels, I think they would have to start from scratch. Some companies would react very slowly. For example, Sony, Nikon, Canon, Spyder (monitor calibration) wouldn't be able to support the new platform for 6-12 months. Also printer and scanner manufacturers wouldn't have drivers for 12-16 months, and if your scanner isn't the latest model big brand, then never ever. This is based on historical evidence. Sony camera firmware updates still don't run on Catalina. Nikon usually needs 2-3 months just to evaluate whether their software works on new macOS or not. An ARM version would take them significantly longer to support.

BootCamp: It's not clear whether BootCamp would be available. Technically they could be, unless Apple modifies the hardware so much that Windows drivers cannot bridge the gap. But the question is not if it's possible, but whether the effort would be made.

Emulation: Most Windows apps are still 32-bit. x86 emulation on ARM comes with a performance hit. It's OK for business apps, like inventory, but it's not OK for professional apps. Even Chrome (x86) runs significantly slower than Edge (native ARM). macOS, on the other hand, is 64-bit only, and emulating x64 on ARM is an enormously big problem. For example, they would have to add more registers that only the emulator could use. Would it be worth the effort? Not in my opinion. If Lightroom and Premier run twice as slowly, what's the point?

Adobe could support Lightroom (CC) easier, but Lightroom Classic probably wouldn't even be ported to ARM anymore. It's not just about lazy developers. Simple apps would be easy enough to recompile. Enormous million-line apps cannot just be recompiled. VMware and Parallels would have to be rewritten from scratch. So do printer and scanner drivers.

The best way to predict the performance of an ARM computer is the Surface Pro X. For note taking, it's fine, but for fine art, not so sure. I would stay with Intel (DaVinci Resolve, AutoCAD, etc.), or iPad Pro (Procreate, Medibang, etc.) But for an average businessman, lawyer, even non-machine learning developer, the ARM might work.