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Generally but obviously using my own experiences and those of people I know as a metric :)

They can, but if the company have gone above and beyond to ensure the workplace is safe with all Covid measures put in place, I don’t see why people can’t return to work. It’s a different story if the company haven’t bothered to ensure this of course.

If it’s a case that employees just like working from home because it saves them money and is easier for them, I don’t see that as an excuse. If they have a medical reason and are shielding, that’s a different story.

In a lot of companies there will be those who don’t have the luxury of being able to work from home due to their role not being office based too and having a chunk of the workforce working remotely offsite permanently would not bode well for morale IMO. Some have worked throughout the pandemic and had no choice but to come into the workplace and now I think it’s time for companies to revise safety measures and make it safe for all to return.
But remember, safe is a relative term and not an absolute one. It has to be safer than WFH. I simply can't see a situation where that is the case.
 
But remember, safe is a relative term and not an absolute one. It has to be safer than WFH. I simply can't see a situation where that is the case.
I suppose it’s only safer if those same employees stay at home and don’t visit supermarkets, pub beer gardens, beaches and any public space now opening back up where they are mixing with people outside their household. Sadly a lot of the resistance comes from people who feel entitled but aren’t so worried about the safety aspect when it comes to their social lives, just the workplace. This has become apparent for a select few in my wife’s company at the moment and she has been managing 3 employees who have used every trick imaginable to not come into the office but have been loving the fact Cardiff’s bars are reopening lol. Their dream came to an end last week.
 
I suppose it’s only safer if those same employees stay at home and don’t visit supermarkets, pub beer gardens, beaches and any public space now opening back up where they are mixing with people outside their household. Sadly a lot of the resistance comes from people who feel entitled but aren’t so worried about the safety aspect when it comes to their social lives, just the workplace. This has become apparent for a select few in my wife’s company at the moment and she has been managing 3 employees who have used every trick imaginable to not come into the office but have been loving the fact Cardiff’s bars are reopening lol. Their dream came to an end last week.
There are so many logical errors here.

1. Reducing exposure isn’t as good as no exposure, but it’s still better than increasing exposure.

2. People wont stop getting food because they are working in an office.

3. Someone incurring additional risk by going someplace on their own time doesn’t change that WFH is safer than being in the office.
 

The empty office: what we lose when we work from home - Guardian 6/3​



But what would happen to the business of sense-making at work if humans were suddenly prevented from working face to face? As he hovered like a fly on the wall of trading rooms on Wall Street and in the City of London in the early 2000s, Beunza often asked himself that question. Then, in the spring of 2020, he was unexpectedly presented with a natural experiment. As Covid-19 spread, financial institutions suddenly did what Bob had said they never would – they sent traders home with their Bloomberg terminals. So, over the course of the summer, Beunza contacted his old Wall Street contacts to ask a key question: what happened?

It was not easy to do the research. Anthropology is a discipline that prizes first-hand observations. Conducting research via video calls seemed to fly in the face of that. “A lot of my work depends on speaking to people face to face, understanding how they live their lives on their own terms and in their own spaces,” said Chloe Evans, an anthropologist at Spotify, to a conferenceconvened in 2020 to discuss the challenge. “Being in the same space is vital for us to understand how people use products and services for the companies we work for.”

However, ethnographers realised there were benefits to the new world, too: they could reach people around the world on a more equal footing, and sometimes with more intimacy. “We see people in contexts not available to us in lab situations,” observed an ethnographer named Stuart Henshall, who was doing research among poor communities in India. Before the pandemic, most of the Indian people he interviewed were so ashamed of their domestic spaces that they preferred to meet in a research office, he explained. But after lockdown, his interviewees started talking to him via video calls from their homes and rickshaws, which enabled him to gain insight into a whole new aspect of their lives. “Participants are simply more comfortable at home in their environment. They feel more in control,” he observed. It was a new of type of ethnography.

When Beunza interviewed bankers remotely, he found echoes of this pattern: respondents were more eager to engage with him from home than in the office, and it felt more intimate. The financiers told him that they had found it relatively simple to do some parts of their job remotely, at least in the short term: working from home was easy if you were writing computer code or scanning legal documents. Teams that had already been working together for a long time also could interact well through video links.

The really big problem was incidental information exchange. “The bit that’s very hard to replicate is the information you didn’t know you needed,” observed Charles Bristow, a senior trader at JP Morgan. “[It’s] where you hear some noise from a desk a corridor away, or you hear a word that triggers a thought. If you’re working from home, you don’t know that you need that information.” Working from home also made it hard to teach younger bankers how to think and behave; physical experiences were crucial for conveying the habits of finance or being an apprentice.

Beunza was not surprised to hear that the financiers were eager to get traders back to the office as soon as they could; nor that most had quietly kept some teams working in the office throughout the crisis. Nor was he surprised that when banks such as JPMorgan started to bring some people back in – initially at 50% capacity – they spent a huge amount of time devising systems to “rotate” people; the trick seemed not to be bringing in entire teams, but people from different groups. This was the best way to get that all-important incidental information exchange when the office was half-full.


But one of the most revealing details from Beunza’s interviews concerned performance. When he asked the financiers at the biggest American and European banks how they had fared during the wild market turmoil of spring 2020, “the bankers said that their trading teams in the office did much, much better than those at home,” Beunza told me in the autumn of 2020. “The Wall Street banks kept more teams in the office, so they seem to have done a lot better than Europeans.” That may have been due to malfunctions on home-based tech platforms. But Beunza attributed it to something else: in-person teams had more incidental information exchange and sense-making, and at times of stress this seemed doubly important.

The bankers that Beunza observed were not the only ones to realise the value of being together in the same physical space. The same pattern was playing out at the IETF. When the pandemic hit, the IETF organisers decided to replace in-person conventions with virtual summits. A few months later they polled about 600 members to see how they felt about this switch. More than half said they considered online meetings less productive than in-person, and only 7% preferred meeting online. Again, they missed the peripheral vision and incidental information exchange that happened with in-person meetings. “[Online] doesn’t work. In person is NOT just about the meeting sessions – it is about meeting people outside the meetings, at social events,” complained one member. “The lack of serendipitous meetings and chats is a significant difference,” said another. Or as one of them put it: “We need to meet in person to get meaningful work done.”

They also missed their humming rituals. As the meetings moved online, two-thirds of the respondents said they wanted to explore new ways to create rough consensus. “We need to figure out how to ‘hum’ online,” said one member. So the IETF organisers experimented with holding online polls. But members complained that virtual polls were too crude and one-dimensional; they crave a more nuanced, three-dimensional way to judge the mood of their tribe. “The most important thing to me about a hum is some idea of how many people present hummed at all, or how loudly. Exact numbers don’t matter, proportionality does,” said one.
——————-
That is what is missing from working from home compared to attending work, is that you miss getting new information incidentally.
 
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People here are making a lot of assumptions about both the letter writers and Apple's decision makers. Are the writers able to do their jobs as effectively working from home full time as they were when they had to go into the office full time, or is that just their perception? (Notice that I didn't say "productive," because we have no idea what they do or how their productivity is measured.) Did the decision makers carefully consider whether it made sense to allow some employees to wfh full time, and decide that there were compelling reasons not to? (One would hope so.) Did some of the letter writers take a gamble and move far from an Apple office during the pandemic? (We don't know.) Did the decision makers ever give the impression that wfh full time post-pandemic might be an option? (We don't know.)

I've had different experiences with wfh. In the late 1990s, when I was was a technical writer/editor, my company allowed me to move to another state and keep my job. I did it successfully for 3.5 years.

At my previous job, where wfh was fine only if you needed to be at home for a delivery, repair person, or whatever, I started finding reasons to work from home once a week or so. My boss trusted me, and she was fine with it -- until one of her other direct reports, whom she didn't trust to wfh, started complaining about favoritism. My boss didn't want it to become an HR issue for herself, so I stopped.

At my current global company, about a third of the employees work remotely, so wfh is part of the culture. At my office, on my team, we each had one wfh day per week. When the pandemic hit, the entire company was able to switch to wfh pretty easily. It worked out really well. Our offices are starting to reopen, and only people who need to go into an office for some reason will be required to do so. Those who don't need to but want to can do so, and those of us who don't need to or want to can wfh permanently.

So there's really no "one size fits all" to wfh full time. It depends on the company culture, the job, how trustworthy the employee is, whether interacting in person adds value to jobs that otherwise can be done wfh, and so on.
 
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There are so many logical errors here.

1. Reducing exposure isn’t as good as no exposure, but it’s still better than increasing exposure.

2. People wont stop getting food because they are working in an office.

3. Someone incurring additional risk by going someplace on their own time doesn’t change that WFH is safer than being in the office.

With respect I completely disagree with everting you say on this. I don’t see why going into work and socially distancing from others and wearing a mask is less safe than doing the same thing in a supermarket. People are now in restaurants and pubs mixing with way more people than the workplace and at some point we need to transition back to work. I haven’t visited a supermarket for nearly 15 months and it’s possible to order all groceries online too.

If somebody has the opinion that exposing themselves to greater risk on ‘their’ terms is fine but won’t give the same courtesy to their employer, I say they aren’t the person for that job. We haven’t had a single Covid case at my place if work for more than 6 months now and everybody has returned to work. With the right measures in place I think you get an effective result.
 
With respect I completely disagree with everting you say on this. I don’t see why going into work and socially distancing from others and wearing a mask is less safe than doing the same thing in a supermarket. People are now in restaurants and pubs mixing with way more people than the workplace and at some point we need to transition back to work. I haven’t visited a supermarket for nearly 15 months and it’s possible to order all groceries online too.

If somebody has the opinion that exposing themselves to greater risk on ‘their’ terms is fine but won’t give the same courtesy to their employer, I say they aren’t the person for that job. We haven’t had a single Covid case at my place if work for more than 6 months now and everybody has returned to work. With the right measures in place I think you get an effective result.
Because it’s not replacing one behavior with risk for another. People will still need food and recreation independent of the location where they perform work.

The only relevant question is does WFH have benefits for the employee over being in the office?

Otherwise one could make the argument that it’s ok to expose an employee to black mold because they also skydive.
 
Surely it's a new world now. Management needs to realize this as soon as possible or certain type of people/developers will search for new jobs. It's not a matter of being "a spoil kid" as some comments state. It's simply a matter of people figuring out the benefit in flexibility and a better work life balance while also improving overall productivity. It's not for all people but for those getting and seeing this as a benefit they will find other jobs if management doesn't help them stay onboard.
 
Technology has certainly allowed more flexibility to work than the Spanish Flu of 1918. But pandemics will keep returning. So its a new world up to a point that you can do a lot more from home then earlier decades.
 
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Because it’s not replacing one behavior with risk for another. People will still need food and recreation independent of the location where they perform work.

The only relevant question is does WFH have benefits for the employee over being in the office?

Otherwise one could make the argument that it’s ok to expose an employee to black mold because they also skydive.
It feels like the interests in your view are heavily on the side of the employee and not the employer. Working from home if that is the situation should benefit the ‘employer’ too. People work for a business and are extremely lucky to have a job that gives them that wage in order to enjoy the things in life. If working from home means the business suffers or underperforms, then the employee needs to realise it’s not working.

If it’s ok for someone to recreationally sit in a pub with 40 strangers exhaling in the same space, it’s ok to sit in a distanced office with 4 - 10 people they know and work collaboratively IMO. Some here have said they want WFH to become a right, yet having a job isn’t a right but merely a privilege.
 
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Generally but obviously using my own experiences and those of people I know as a metric
I would definitely not agree that "people generally" find working 'face to face' better.

They can, but if the company have gone above and beyond to ensure the workplace is safe with all Covid measures put in place, I don’t see why people can’t return to work. It’s a different story if the company haven’t bothered to ensure this of course.
I didn't mention covid, deliberately.


The apocalypse may be the catalyst that forced companies to get first hand experience with remote working, but there are plenty of better reasons to allow staff who want to work remotely.


If it’s a case that employees just like working from home because it saves them money and is easier for them, I don’t see that as an excuse.
“Excuse”?

Companies traditionally (like before the last 20 years) didn’t have much concept of remote working in the way we’re talking about now, because it was not practical for most jobs.

The internet has changed that in a two ways: there are now a lot more people working on things that are inherently just something on a computer; and there is now much better, faster, cheaper internet access available.

After close to 15 years working remotely, if your question is essentially “why should these staff be able to work from somewhere besides the office” my response to you is: “why not”?

Some jobs obviously don’t work remotely. Customer service in a shop doesn’t work that way. A chef at a restaurant doesn’t work that way.

someone sitting or standing at a computer absolutely works that way.

Besides hand waivey references to “productivity” and “secrecy”, what’s your excuse reason to expect staff to work from an office?
 
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Certainly the letter could be perceived as a bit whiny, however, they at least provided their reasons. In part:
  • Diversity and Inclusion in Retention and Hiring
  • Tearing Down Previously Existing Communication Barriers
  • Better Work Life Balance
  • Better Integration of Existing Remote / Location-Flexible Workers
  • Reduced Spread of Pathogens
Some valid, some perhaps less so. Either way, we'll see how Corporate reacts. Probably with a hammer.
Yeah let's see what's going to happen. hehe
 
I would definitely not agree that "people generally" find working 'face to face' better.


I didn't mention covid, deliberately.


The apocalypse may be the catalyse that forced companies to get first hand experience with remote working, but there are plenty of better reasons to allow staff who want to work remotely.



“Excuse”?

Companies traditionally (like before the last 20 years) didn’t have much concept of remote working in the way we’re talking about now, because it was not practical for most jobs.

The internet has changed that in a two ways: there are now a lot more people working on things that are inherently just something on a computer; and there is now much better, faster, cheaper internet access available.

After close to 15 years working remotely, if your question is essentially “why should these staff be able to work from somewhere besides the office” my response to you is: “why not”?

Some jobs obviously don’t work remotely. Customer service in a shop doesn’t work that way. A chef at a restaurant doesn’t work that way.

someone sitting or standing at a computer absolutely works that way.

Besides hand waivey references to “productivity” and “secrecy”, what’s your excuse reason to expect staff to work from an office?

I think I outlined all my reasons across several posts and I’m in favour of being able to work from home and do so myself some of the time. I’m well aware of the technology that enables people to work remotely as again, I work from home and did so solidly for 10 and a half months during the pandemic. I think it’s good for business to get people back into the work place and working collaboratively face to face again. Sure you may get the odd unsociable person who dislikes people contact but in most environments it’s a team that needs physical presence to break down barriers.

From my experience allowing some employees to work from home permanently causes ill feeling to those who can’t for instance. It’s been a bit of a HR nightmare during Covid to ensure everybody’s needs are met and managing the fallout from those who feel they’ve run the business while everybody else lives it up at home. They have no overview of what you’ve been doing and a perception culture is born. When you’ve got people visiting your site and the entire office are at home, how do you bridge these customer and supplier interactions?

We had to introduce a WFH set of rules last May which required people to be appropriately dressed for work and you clearly stick to break schedules. Attending meetings where colleagues are sat in a T-shirt and sunglasses on their heads is not the impression you want to see.

I suppose I can ask the question, why should office staff be allowed to not attend the workplace and have their desire to be risk free promoted over those who have no choice? What is the added incentive to those being productive on site as opposed to those at home? Bugger bonuses, extra days holidays?
 
Guarantee you most of these people are highly replaceable. If I’m Tim Cook, I come back with 2 days per week at home gives you 4 days per week out of the office and just 3 days in office. That’s more than fair.

If it doesn’t work for you, find new employment.
 
Working from home, depending on the discipline, can be detrimental to a company. Humans aren’t meant to be siloed and while there is video conferencing you are missing a lot of relationship/team building when you don’t have in person interaction.

The residual effects and impact on culture by Covid is worse than the virus itself. It’s been used as a political weapon and a way for folks to add credence to their points.
 
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Guarantee you most of these people are highly replaceable. If I’m Tim Cook, I come back with 2 days per week at home gives you 4 days per week out of the office and just 3 days in office. That’s more than fair.

If it doesn’t work for you, find new employment.
You’re probably correct in that assumption. It’s usually the folks who are on the lower rungs of the company. Who feel entitled to everything yet lack the aptitude and work ethic to fit their vision on where they should be.
Participation trophies are few and far between in the real world folks.
 
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I think it’s good for business to get people back into the work place and working collaboratively face to face again.
You realise that isn’t a reason right?

Sure you may get the odd unsociable person who dislikes people contact but in most environments it’s a team that needs physical presence to break down barriers.
That’s both incredibly insulting and a ridiculous generalisation.

I work from home and did so solidly for 10 and a half months during the pandemic.
so as I mentioned initially you have no real world experience with remote working besides what was forced on you by the apocalypse?
From my experience allowing some employees to work from home permanently causes ill feeling to those who can’t for instance. It’s been a bit of a HR nightmare during Covid to ensure everybody’s needs are met and managing the fallout from those who feel they’ve run the business while everybody else lives it up at home. They have no overview of what you’ve been doing and a perception culture is born.
unless those people are routinely wasting their own time in the office touring everyone’s work spaces to make sure they’re doing work, you’re just pandering to whiners. And if they do that, you’re pandering to hypocrites.

Different jobs have different requirements. Do you also have hr nightmares when the janitor realises the CEO gets paid more? What about when the designers get specialised high end hardware but the developers get perfectly adequate but lower spec hardware?

When you’ve got people visiting your site and the entire office are at home, how do you bridge these customer and supplier interactions?
I dunno. Maybe tell them you’re a modern company that is able to manage in 2021 what other companies have been doing for over a decade? I have no idea what kind of business you work for but being a zoo exhibit for visiting customers hardly sounds like something employees would be enthused about to me.
We had to introduce a WFH set of rules last May which required people to be appropriately dressed for work and you clearly stick to break schedules. Attending meetings where colleagues are sat in a T-shirt and sunglasses on their heads is not the impression you want to see.
Again I don’t know what you do, but you’ve diverted from “measuring output” to appearances pretty quickly.

I suppose I can ask the question, why should office staff be allowed to not attend the workplace and have their desire to be risk free promoted over those who have no choice? What is the added incentive to those being productive on site as opposed to those at home? Bugger bonuses, extra days holidays?
Forget risk. As I said, the apocalypse is unrelated to this.

If someone has to be physically present in the office to do some task that is impossible to do remotely then that’s clearly a job requirement. Cindy works in reception and accepts packages, signs in visitors - ergo she has to be physically present.

June writes legal documents and emails them to her colleagues. That does not require her to be physically present.

If you want to claim they’re both “required” to be in the office because otherwise Cindy will claim it’s not fair, I’d love to hear how you respond to her asking why she gets paid less.
 
I'm Director of Development at a medical start up. I got some of this "pushback" when I announced we were going back into the office.

"Well...the good news is....you don't have to WANT to come back into the office to work. You just have to do it." 1 month later, no one has quit, and there is no grumbling.
Of course not. They are afraid to loose their job. In your case secrecy is an issue. Unfortunately some bosses will bully their employee in line. How loyal do you think this employee be afterwards?
 
People here are making a lot of assumptions about both the letter writers and Apple's decision makers. Are the writers able to do their jobs as effectively working from home full time as they were when they had to go into the office full time, or is that just their perception? (Notice that I didn't say "productive," because we have no idea what they do or how their productivity is measured.) Did the decision makers carefully consider whether it made sense to allow some employees to wfh full time, and decide that there were compelling reasons not to? (One would hope so.) Did some of the letter writers take a gamble and move far from an Apple office during the pandemic? (We don't know.) Did the decision makers ever give the impression that wfh full time post-pandemic might be an option? (We don't know.)

I've had different experiences with wfh. In the late 1990s, when I was was a technical writer/editor, my company allowed me to move to another state and keep my job. I did it successfully for 3.5 years.

At my previous job, where wfh was fine only if you needed to be at home for a delivery, repair person, or whatever, I started finding reasons to work from home once a week or so. My boss trusted me, and she was fine with it -- until one of her other direct reports, whom she didn't trust to wfh, started complaining about favoritism. My boss didn't want it to become an HR issue for herself, so I stopped.

At my current global company, about a third of the employees work remotely, so wfh is part of the culture. At my office, on my team, we each had one wfh day per week. When the pandemic hit, the entire company was able to switch to wfh pretty easily. It worked out really well. Our offices are starting to reopen, and only people who need to go into an office for some reason will be required to do so. Those who don't need to but want to can do so, and those of us who don't need to or want to can wfh permanently.

So there's really no "one size fits all" to wfh full time. It depends on the company culture, the job, how trustworthy the employee is, whether interacting in person adds value to jobs that otherwise can be done wfh, and so on.
Good comments, sensible. I agree.
 
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And people who only work 40 hours a week and use their vacation time are lazy too. A lot of employees work very hard from home. As a business, would you rather have a great worker who happens to work remote or a incompetent worker who is willing to be in an office 8-5?
I work less when I go to the office. Commuting, dressing up, fixing dinner keeps my labor beneath 8h. If I am at home however I'd easily put in 10h. I can also concentrate more.
 
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Humans probably aren’t meant to sit in traffic jams and then inside a cubicle all day either when you think about it.

Right. But this is our method of today to gain a livelihood. Would our early ancestors sat in a cave and expect to acquire what they needed to sustain life? No they had to go out and use whatever means available to them to find success.

But your message reminded me of office space. So thumbs up for that.
 
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