I just did, with the baseball example you hand-waved away by pretending someone else would magically compile the metrics for you.
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Apple Staff Complain About Plans for Return to Office Work in Letter to Tim Cook
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I just did, with the baseball example you hand-waved away by pretending someone else would magically compile the metrics for you.
Lol no hand waving, it was just a bad example. What product do baseball players create that can be shown to their managers to judge how well they play the sport?
Now, using Apple as the example, do you think Apple employees have to show their completed work to a manager?
if you think these 2 are apples for apples caparisons then you either don’t know much about baseball or how computer based work is handled.
It wasn’t a bad example. Baseball players and programmers both create and produce. Your entire argument is based on the straw man argument that the only benefit to the office is being able to count heads and count minutes at the desk.
What does a baseball player physically create/produce that someone can judge their work on?
An employee again is given a task, if that task is completed it can be verified. If the project works and was done on time, then why does it matter where that employee did the work.
no straw man argument here, I personally believe there’s no added benefit to going into the office, but the management aspect was specifically what I was responding to.
Hits and home runs and strikeouts and putouts, etc.
Employees and teams are given tasks and then there’s no interaction or supervision until the task is completed? Or are you claiming that it’s just as easy to interact with and supervise people working in 200 locations as it is in one location?
Hits, homer runs, strike outs… those are all actions, not physical items you can hand to another person for verification. If a baseball game was played without any umpires, fans, or stat keepers, you’d have no way to verify whether a Homer was actually hit. If an employee adds search bar functionality to an app in their basement, you can verify whether that works VERY easily.
it’s very easy to track progress and answer questions/collaborate with zoom. There are entire methodologies of development to help facilitate this easier (agile). You don’t have to have 20 people in a room to talk/ collaborate anymore.
We wouldn’t know what baseball players produce if no one watches, but we do know what programmers produce because … someone watches?
You’re just making things up to fit your narrative.
That’s a great idea but not always achievable. In my line of work the quality of work is demonstrated at the end of a project and some of these take years to complete. All updates are verbal or through PowerPoint presentations. Constant checking and updates consume time but being present and discussing in person often speeds this process up.
Letting employees go isn’t that easy either and being lazy isn’t grounds for instant dismissal. You have to build a case and issue warnings through a HR source and attempt to rectify the situation before making someone redundant. The talent pool isn’t always as rich as it likely is in San Francisco. There’s too many jobs for the lack of applicants in my part of the world now and wage demands are going up.
I don’t agree with relaxing home working to the point of allowing people to disappear to the shops during their shift ‘as long as they get their work done’ as a working day isn’t always a preset number of tasks. When you work in roles where questions are continuous and turnaround time vital, it’s not unreasonable to expect someone to be available between 8am - 4pm excluding the hour that person gets for lunch. If management are happy for the occasional trip away and it’s pre-agreed, then that’s great.
lol what are you talking about? Do you think a manager has to sit over a programmers shoulder to prove that the work is getting done?
this really isn’t a hard concept to grasp. Baseball players produce nothing tangible that can be verified. Programmers produce something both tangible (physically or digitally) and verifiable.
even in the office, a manager isn’t sitting at the desk with their programmers watching them work… heck most of the time I’d doubt their even on the same floor of the building.
You’re back to arguing that companies spend huge money on offices (and apparently unneeded managers) just for the hell of it.
with homes costing millions and rent 5K a month no wonder they want to work remote 100% so they can stay at affordable places instead.
For starters that figure is against the following, not the average Silicon Valley salary.
Why don't you look at
Average Salary for Apple Computer, Inc Employees - Payscale
So for all you people think going that Apple doesn't pay their employees well, just dig a little further then that figure that Wall Street mentioned.
Had a good time at BJ's in front of the infinity loop. There are other places around.
I never mentioned anything about spending money on offices yesterday, nor did I say managers were unneeded.
what I did say was that if you have a manager who can’t evaluate productivity outside of whether you’re in the office or not, then it’s probably time to replace that manager with someone who can.
just out of curiosity, are you a middle manager?
No, I’m a company owner with a combination of office and remote staff.
The clear implication of your argument is that companies foolishly waste big money on unneeded offices.
im not suggesting to wait until an entire project is done in order to determine an employees worth, I’d imagine most projects are broken up (or can be broken up) into small projects. You can check progress with daily 15 meetings, progress reports, etc.. I still find it hard to believe that giving these updates in person are that much, if any, faster than on zoom.
as for firing someone, I get that there’s steps and procedures that need to be followed, but those steps are the same regardless of whether the employee is remote or in the office. Laziness might not be a fireable offense, but not getting work done is, so it’s no different firing someone for job performance in office as it is at home.
lastly, when I talked about relaxing the work from home to allow people to come and go as they please, I specifically mentioned that they would need to get their work done AND be available when needed. I’ve always got my phone on me, if I choose to leave for the store in the middle of the day, then I need to make sure that I can still answer calls and answer questions while I’m out. If it becomes an issue, and I’m always leaving and unavailable, then I’m not I’m not performing my job and can be fired. We’re all adults, we should make our own decisions, if I can still do my job while at the grocery, then who cares.
No my argument is that companies need to understand their most valuable resource is their employees and they need to understand that this new generation of employees don’t care about company name. Millennials value things different than the boomer generation and as a result, will look for more opportunities in which they can work from where they want and spend more time with their family.
from a business perspective, yes it is stupid for you to spend money on a physical building when the same work could be done remote. It’s like going out and buying a bunch of type writers, they are outdated, unnecessary and a new more effective way of doing things have been found.
I couldn’t care less what millennials want. Employees are there to make my life easier, not the reverse.
I have zero interest in spending all day, every day, setting up Zoom meetings and staring at little faces on a screen.
Lol well with them being the largest percentage of the work force, you might want to start caring.
You sound like a wonderful person to work for. I’m sure whatever business you own will manage to survive, but I doubt you’ll ever manage to get top tier talent with such a closed minded approach to leadership.
The percentages mean nothing. There are plenty of millennials who aren’t whiny and entitled, and who enjoy working face to face with colleagues.
You’re assuming I’m a bad boss because I don’t let employees dictate their terms of employment?
”LOL,” indeed.
Nope I’m assuming your a bad boss because of how you “couldn’t care less” about what the largest percentage of the workforce wants. I’m also basing that assumption on the fact that you look at your employees as pawns to make your life easier and seemingly don’t care about helping to make their lives easier.
who would want to work for a person like that? I have no idea what industry your in, but if I ever caught my boss publicly saying “I don’t care what my employees want” or “my employees are here to make my life easier, not the other way around”, then I’d be looking for another place of employment immediately.
As you put it, “LOL.”
Why should I care “what the largest percentage of the workforce wants”? I’m the customer here. What I want is all that matters.
If I decide that a job needs an in-person presence, that’s it. I don’t care if some hypothetical prospective employee prefers to work remotely from Peoria.