Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
Actually, Thunderbolt provides two 10 Gbps channels, either of which are capable of transporting a DisplayPort 1.1a main link which has a maximum bandwidth of 8.64 Gbps. DisplayPort 1.2 requires 17.28 Gbps for the main link. It would have been a pretty big ask to expect Thunderbolt to provide two 20 Gbps channels upon its initial release in order to handle DP 1.2. I reckon you have a bunch of consumer electronics cables lying around your cave that can handle 40 Gbps?

Ummm... confused:confused:
The data channel on TB is 10Gbps bi-directional right?
plus the Display port channel.
So the cable would have to be at least 3 x 10 Channels.


The problem for TBolt, however, is whether any significant fraction of those 80M/500M systems have any use for TBolt. If 99% of the market is happy with a USB 3.0 external drive or two, then your potential market is .8M/5M systems.
Well to be fair about 95% of the market is happy with USB 2.0 and would be probably looking towards wireless not wired for their next upgrade.
 
Ummm... confused:confused:
The data channel on TB is 10Gbps bi-directional right?
plus the Display port channel.
So the cable would have to be at least 3 x 10 Channels.

Each port provides two full-duplex (bi-directional) 10 Gbps channels over a single cable. The Thunderbolt protocol allows for multiplexing of PCIe and DisplayPort packets on a single channel. There isn't an inherent separation of DP and PCIe traffic unless the attached device only uses one protocol or the other. This way you can create devices such as the Apple Thunderbolt Display which combines a DisplayPort panel with several PCIe devices. Due to the switching architecture though, each Thunderbolt device can only use a single channel at a time, in order to assure bandwidth to devices further down the chain.

I wasn't taking the full-duplex factor into account in my previous statement, as this is rarely done except in marketing literature. For instance, you don't usually refer to Gigabit Ethernet as a 2 Gbps protocol.
 
Apple obviously should have made sure that all Macs could drive the full resolution of $11,000 televisions that don't exist yet. How wasteful of them not to. They also should have just skipped ahead and included Ivy Bridge so that we won't have more capable Macs on the market next year, tempting people to upgrade yet again. I guess you missed my earlier point about a cable that can handle 40 Gbps not being in the realm of consumer products at this point in the technological advancement of the human race.
TB as today can only handle 10Gbit/s per display. DPv.1.2 can handle over 17Gbit/s.

DisplayPort 1.1a supports displays with resolutions of 2560x1600. Thunderbolt ports can drive up to 2 of these. How many displays with resolutions north of 2560x1600 are currently on the market? I realize that there is an announced home theater standard which would run at 4096×2160p24, but how many of these currently exist or will exist in three years? Is there any content yet released in this format? 99% of what you'll view on one of these screens in the near future will be scaled anyway, so what difference does it make if the output from your MacBook Air is also scaled? It would also suck to use one of these as a PC display at full resolution because the refresh rate is only 24 Hz.
How many 2560x1440 there were before 2010 27" ACD?
None.
How many non-Apple have been sold now?
Millions.

Things can easily change in few years.

But if you want to narrow your vision to the present, please do. You're not alone.
Most people that buy expensive Macs already like to have all & any excuses to buy a new one. They all enjoy these incremental and delayed feature upgrades.

No flat screen will ever have screen refresh rate of 24 Hz. That is the fps speed. No need for that kind of flickering any more. Actually neither did even any projectors for the last century. They all had double or triple blades.
Leds can also be constatly on, so there's no flicker on any frame speed.

Yeah Sony is clearly designing products with the maximum possible lifespan, hoping that their customers buy once and won't come back anytime soon. Unlike Apple, whose products just happen to retain their resale value better than any other PC brand...
Macs are holding their resale value, not because they are so hardware rich, but because their hardware evolves so slow that old models are as good as new...
Recent years Apple has had the volume to change this, but lacks motivation, since they rather just shortsight cash-in.
It would be pretty wise for you to quit trolling.
Maybe it woul be a bit more wise for you to calm down.
 
That's why Intel's purported move to omit TB from its standard chipset is so full of failure. The only reason you do that is if you want to kill TB, just like lack of standard FireWire support from Intel doomed FW to irrelevance.

Putting it into the core chipset is premature and wrong at this point. TB is still new and immature. There is zero reason to put it into a chipset that every single design is going to pick up. This is the same fundamentally flawed reasoning that proclaimed doom-and-gloom for USB 3.0 before Intel tagged it for inclusion.

The current gen got SATA III ( which was prevalent on many boards as separate chip before inclusion)
The next gen gets USB 3.0 ( which is prevalent on most current boards with separate chip now.)
TB isn't prevalent on anything expect Apple. And that is only because Steve probably decreed it be so... not from market demand.

When there are 20 different non-Apple boards with TB included then can talk about when the schedule TB for inclusion. Until then, it is unproven. No tech should "have to be included" for it to get picked up into multiple designs. That would be indicative of a failure.

Putting USB 3.0 into the core chipset will help TB because that opens up room in many board designs to now put an discrete TB chip into the "hole" that the USB 3.0 ( and perhaps SATA III ) chipset occupied previously.

It took USB 3.0 two years to get up enough momentum for inclusion after the standard passed. TB really doesn't even have a standard yet. At least an open standard.



The problem for TB is that it is going to need another rev before gets stable. It does PCI-e v2.0 and DisplayPort v1.1a but those two protocols are going into the rear view mirror now. Many vendors are going to get skittish about putting DP or PCI-e streams behind TB. Similarly, it pragmatically requires that there are graphics on the motherboard (or at least non classic PCI-e cards). The next two iterations of Intel/AMD processors will make integrated graphics universal. At that point, TB is a much more natural design fit. Before then it can be a kludge.

Lots of system vendors were trying to digest USB 3.0. Nobody, including Apple, wanted to deal with USB 3.0 and TB at the same time. There are lots of good reasons for that (e.g., management of complexity, controlling costs, etc.) that have little to do with the long term success or either USB 3.0 or TB.

Some folks tried to paint TB as the "one port to rule them all". That was just setting it up for failure. TB was never going to replace USB. (and therefore USB 3.0). It perhaps over time remove eSATA, FW, ExpressCard and a few other "second tier" ports from the field, but the cost structure and technology was never going to remove USB. As much as TB is applied to docking stations and dongles it isn't going to remove the other legacy connectors much either. It strength lies in aggregating, not removing ports from service to the user.

That said an indicator that TB is going to fail is if most system vendors do not adopt it as the standard docking station connector. If they continue to insist on proprietary connectors then TB will have failed to penetrate a natural targeted market. If it succeeds then it will take a position similar to FW as being the "other" standard port that most systems have.

It is easy for Apple to make the "docking station" decision. They only had one device and the TB version ( TB display) is an improvement. Similarly, for the most part (probably 96+% ), their systems sold are closed graphics. Again a natural fit for TB.
 
The problem for TB is that it is going to need another rev before gets stable. It does PCI-e v2.0 and DisplayPort v1.1a but those two protocols are going into the rear view mirror now. Many vendors are going to get skittish about putting DP or PCI-e streams behind TB. Similarly, it pragmatically requires that there are graphics on the motherboard (or at least non classic PCI-e cards). The next two iterations of Intel/AMD processors will make integrated graphics universal. At that point, TB is a much more natural design fit. Before then it can be a kludge.
So true,
interesting to see if/when gpu cards will have TB port versions to offer.
Another question is if next MP will have TB on motherboard, which would lead to the need of otherwise useless integrated gpu?
And if it has TB as pci-card, will that be available for older models also?
Or will it have TB on a gpu card already?
And will these be artificially restricted to new model, similiar to Apple's external dvd?
Some folks tried to paint TB as the "one port to rule them all". That was just setting it up for failure. TB was never going to replace USB. (and therefore USB 3.0). It perhaps over time remove eSATA, FW, ExpressCard and a few other "second tier" ports from the field, but the cost structure and technology was never going to remove USB. As much as TB is applied to docking stations and dongles it isn't going to remove the other legacy connectors much either. It strength lies in aggregating, not removing ports from service to the user.
Simple example of this "one port to rule them all":
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/intensity/
TB rises the cost over usb3 by 50%.
And these are low volume products.
With high volume products the price difference will be much higher.
With 99% of products not gaining anything in common use from TB.
Maybe the most common use for fast connection to peripheral is external hdd. Just comparing the cost of eSATAp on motherboard (about $3) to eSATAp expresscard ($30) to eSATAp on TB dongle or TB enclosure (maybe $150).
If every Apple's new invention adds zero to the bill, this can't continue much longer...
 
They don't need a dedicated port..stick with the USB and just have a hub from thunderbolt to USB 3.0

All they need to do is fire out TB accessories..make use of the rapid technology!
 
Are you making fun of iCloud?

That's a big leap.
Why would I make fun of iCloud? :D
Seriously, I like iCloud I think it has some really good potential.

To me improvements to wireless will always be a winner, doesn't matter if you make faster, cheaper it's going to win. Then again the cloud helps you with that by making better use of the same improvements. If you can get a network drive for the same price as a new USB3.0 one you'll go network and plug it in to your router unless you really really need high speed access. Same story on the printer or camera. The cloud only makes the wireless advantage more pronounced as we go forward.

Leaving Cables for when you really, really need bandwidth.
So much so you don't mind being tied to one spot.
 
This would be a terrible idea.

It would eliminate one of the reasons that initiates flame wars on MacRumors.

To aid in turning this thread into a flame war, I present the following:

Thunderbolt > USB 3.0.

Go!

Just a matter of time before a third party Thunderbolt to USB 3.0 converter comes out on the market.
 
That's ok. Ivy Bridge will have native USB 3 support and we should see that 1st quarter 2012. Everyone can upgrade their Macs again in April.

Wouldn't it be wonderful if computers had some kind of industry standard expansion slot, so that you could just plug in a card or something to add new capabilites to the computer that you own?

It seems so pointless to send your computer and moniter to the toxic waste recycling facility, and buy a new all-in-one, just to get a faster expansion port.
 
Wouldn't it be wonderful if computers had some kind of industry standard expansion slot, so that you could just plug in a card or something to add new capabilites to the computer that you own?

That's what the Mac Pro and the 17" MacBook Pro are for. However, such things take up vast amounts space, and people do like their sleek laptops and "where did you hide the computer" small form-factor systems.

However, over the years, I've found less and less need for internal expansion, beyond adding RAM and HD. Sure - some people need it, but its a declining trend, and Apple have always been the first to jump ship in such cases.

It seems so pointless to send your computer and moniter to the toxic waste recycling facility, and buy a new all-in-one, just to get a faster expansion port.

Well, Thunderbolt should be a solution to that, provided the adapters show up at a reasonable price.

Seriously guys: I want my Thunderbolt to USB3/Ethernet/eSATA docking station about now. In theory, the announced Thunderbolt-to-PCIe card boxes should be able to do some or all of that, drivers and expense permitting.

Meanwhile, I'm sure that you'll be able to find something better to do with your old system than sending it to landfill.
 
USB 3.0 May not be utilized yet!

I would think that the reason Apple hasn't integrated USB 3.0 yet (or won't for a while) is its simply not a big enough usable boost in speed yet. The Bus is at 600MB/s but rarely do you find hardware even close to that data rate. for instance, the hard drives that come with the MBP's are mostly still 5400 rpm and have max write speed still in the 30MB/s to 50MB/s which is still within the USB 2 Spec. Even for larger faster drives that you might find in an iMac or a Mac Pro write in the upwards 80-90 MB/s but your flash drives and external HDD are still only 20MB/s - 40MB/s write speed. Thus your bottle-necked by the slowest write speed of your transfer. I would think in order for Apple to pay for the Licencing of the USB 3.0 spec, the new chips required, that everyone would have to be running high performance SSD's (greater than 50MB/s write) and have the same SSD or expensive external peripherals. If that were cost effective for that masses, I believe only then will we see USB 3.0 on the Mac.
 
USB 2.0 is a critical bottleneck

There's a lot of confusion in this post - in fact people using USB 3.0 are seeing vastly faster speeds from their USB 3.0 drives compared to USB 2.0.

Consider these charts from Bare Feats: (click to enlarge)

h136_sr.gif
h136_sw.gif


Doesn't 200+ MByte/sec look better than 32 MByte/sec?


The Bus is at 600MB/s but rarely do you find hardware even close to that data rate.

But there's lots of hardware that's a lot faster than USB 2.0's 40 MByte/sec max. As before, 200 MByte/sec is a lot better than 40. You don't have to run at the theoretical peak to see a benefit, you just have to be significantly faster than the older standard.


for instance, the hard drives that come with the MBP's are mostly still 5400 rpm and have max write speed still in the 30MB/s to 50MB/s which is still within the USB 2 Spec.

Actually, Storage Review benchmarks current 5400 RPM notebook drives at over 100 MByte/sec for both read and write. 7200 RPM drives in the 115 MByte/sec range.


Even for larger faster drives that you might find in an iMac or a Mac Pro write in the upwards 80-90 MB/s

Performance of current large capacity drives is in the 110-120 MByte/sec for 5400 and "green" drives, and in the 150 MByte/sec for 7200 RPM performance drives.

Make the external drive a RAID pair, and you'll see even faster speeds.


but your flash drives and external HDD are still only 20MB/s - 40MB/s write speed.

Because they're limited by USB 2.0 !! Put a 150 MByte/sec drive in a USB 3.0 case, and you'll see 150 MByte/sec.


Thus your bottle-necked by the slowest write speed of your transfer. I would think in order for Apple to pay for the Licencing of the USB 3.0 spec, the new chips required, that everyone would have to be running high performance SSD's (greater than 50MB/s write) and have the same SSD or expensive external peripherals. If that were cost effective for that masses, I believe only then will we see USB 3.0 on the Mac.

First, you're underestimating the performance of the internal drives.

Second, you're assuming that a copy between internal and external drives is the only operation.

If your Photoshop and Premiere projects are on the external, the operations are all memory <-> external - the speed of the internal drive hardly matters.

If you have multiple external drives, again the internal drive speed hardly matters.
 
Because they're limited by USB 2.0 !! Put a 150 MByte/sec drive in a USB 3.0 case, and you'll see 150 MByte/sec.

By the way thanks for the correction on all this stuff! I see what your saying by all this but Its troubling because on my PC for instance copying a large file from my WDC Caviar WD1001FALS to my WDC Raptor WD740ADFD and im only getting 50MB/s actual speed. and all the computers I work on or work with never in a million years go much past this. I'm talking about internal transfers too! Does my Equipment just suck?! haha Its supposed to be the fast stuff!:( let me know if you have any insight
 
Can someone please explain to me the appeal of daisy-chaining? It's being touted as a benefit of TB, it was touted as a benefit of FW, but I don't see the appeal of it compared to an adequate number of ports in the first place. Why use an arrangement where you have to unplug everything downstream of a device you want to remove? Or where it gets harder to keep your computer centered on the desk when you have six devices coming off in a chain?
 
By the way thanks for the correction on all this stuff! I see what your saying by all this but Its troubling because on my PC for instance copying a large file from my WDC Caviar WD1001FALS to my WDC Raptor WD740ADFD and im only getting 50MB/s actual speed. and all the computers I work on or work with never in a million years go much past this. I'm talking about internal transfers too! Does my Equipment just suck?! haha Its supposed to be the fast stuff!:( let me know if you have any insight

I had some suggestions, but deleted them because they were off topic. I tried to send you a private message, but you don't accept them.


Can someone please explain to me the appeal of daisy-chaining? It's being touted as a benefit of TB, it was touted as a benefit of FW, but I don't see the appeal of it compared to an adequate number of ports in the first place. Why use an arrangement where you have to unplug everything downstream of a device you want to remove? Or where it gets harder to keep your computer centered on the desk when you have six devices coming off in a chain?

There's no appeal - especially when you have to cleanly disconnect hard drives and your monitor to modify the daisy chain.

TBolt needs hubs/switches to be a reasonable solution - not everyone wants to reboot whenever they need to switch an external device in and out.
 
Last edited:
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.