Apple Still Facing Criticism Over Warranty Issues in Europe as Lawsuits Spread to More Countries

[thekev]

Do they inform you about food hygiene requirements when you go to a restaurant? Or alcohol licensing terms when you buy a pint? Do car dealers inform you about the highway code when you buy a car?

By the same logic, if you're fined for playing golf in a park, or not picking up dog crap - you can't use the excuse "there were no signs" - you're expected to know.

These are not parallel examples.

How exactly?

So they're supposed to say "if this breaks down, you have a 2 year warranty with the seller, but you need to prove there was an inherent fault if it breaks after 6 months" when you buy something.

Where have you EVER heard that said? It's the law, not a service. You should know the law in your own country.

Are you familiar with European law or just going off what people posted on here? I suspect the real thing is far more specific than this. Otherwise it could mean that only common defects are covered outside of the manufacturer warranty. You also mention the seller. Are they expected to replace it from their own stock or does it go through the manufacturer? What if the manufacturer has since gone out of business? You are going off incomplete information and coming to baseless conclusions unless you just left out a large portion of your own background knowledge on the subject.

So the moral of the story is that the EU wants Apple to hand hold customers through warranty regulation when someone is trying to make a purchase?

How about this EU.....how about you tell your own citizens to be better versed on their own rights instead of trying to regulate industry to do it for you.

Here is the quote from the article.

"This case and the responses I received since I sent my letter have highlighted rather clearly just why the Commission cannot sit on the side-lines on enforcement issues," she said. "The approaches to enforcement in these types of cases turn out to be very diversified and inconsistent at a national level. In at least 21 EU Member States

Apple is not informing consumers correctly about the legal warranty rights they have.

This is simply not good enough."

That can mean a lot of things depending on the context of the overall discussion. Do they mean that Apple employees do not specifically mention warranty terms directly related to EU law? Do they mean that Apple employees often inappropriately dismiss such claims? Try not to form such concrete opinions out of so little information. Every time one of these articles comes up, it's like I'm reading through a bunch of armchair lawyer responses.

 

[Brian Y]

Are you familiar with European law or just going off what people posted on here? I suspect the real thing is far more specific than this. Otherwise it could mean that only common defects are covered outside of the manufacturer warranty. You also mention the seller. Are they expected to replace it from their own stock or does it go through the manufacturer? What if the manufacturer has since gone out of business? You are going off incomplete information and coming to baseless conclusions unless you just left out a large portion of your own background knowledge on the subject.

No, I am perfectly aware of EU law - and it has nothing to do with the manufacturer. The manufacturer has no legal responsibility under EU law or the Sale of Goods Act in the UK. None whatsoever.

The general rule of thumb (for like the 5th time in this thread) is that if it's less than 6 months old, the seller has to prove it was not inherently faulty. If it's older than 6 months, it's down to the you to prove that it was inherent faults. Anything other than inherent faults (i.e. faults that weren't present at the point of purchase/have developed) aren't covered. Either way, it's the Seller who is responsible. Fair or not, that's the law.

 

[Galatian]

No, I am perfectly aware of EU law - and it has nothing to do with the manufacturer. The manufacturer has no legal responsibility under EU law or the Sale of Goods Act in the UK. None whatsoever.

The general rule of thumb (for like the 5th time in this thread) is that if it's less than 6 months old, the seller has to prove it was not inherently faulty. If it's older than 6 months, it's down to the you to prove that it was inherent faults. Anything other than inherent faults (i.e. faults that weren't present at the point of purchase/have developed) aren't covered. Either way, it's the Seller who is responsible. Fair or not, that's the law.

While I agree with you I should be noted that I yet have to see any store or seller who outright refuses to take a product back for repair even after 6 months here in Germany for free. It would be too much of a hassle for a seller to disprove a customer who claims a defect was already there months ago, unless of course the product is already scratched and in a bad shape.

 

[snipper]

So the moral of the story is that the EU wants Apple to hand hold customers through warranty regulation when someone is trying to make a purchase?

How about this EU.....how about you tell your own citizens to be better versed on their own rights instead of trying to regulate industry to do it for you.

I read a lot of this kind of misinterpretations here. What they mean is: Apple should be clear about the guarantee. For example:

If I buy an iMac in the Netherlands, Apple legally has to give at least a 2 year guarantee. Apple knows this, because it's the law in the whole EU. But what do they write in the guarantee paper? 'You have one year guarantee, unless local laws demands differently'. They even write this in the localized Dutch, German etc versions so they know very well that that product is sold in the EU and that they are obliged a 2 year guarantee.

What happens when your iMac brakes down after 13 months and you bring it in? They say: "I'm sorry but you only had a one year guarantee, look, here it is in the guarantee paper."

Of course the *** salesperson knows it is 2+ years but they just do everything to try to get around it. You really have to be very assertive, write a letter, complain over and over, etc. It can take weeks, months before they take your claim, IF they do it at all.

Surely you'll win in the end but you might even take it to court. I'm sorry, but if the hard disk of my € 2000 computer dies after 13 months (which happened to my parents' 2006 iMac) I want it fixed NOW and not in weeks or months. And that's what Apple is banking on. They hope you don't know the law, are not assertive enough, or just can't do long enough with your computer and give in. And have it fixed on your account.

(So I drove to the next electronics shop, bought a new hd for € 75 and googled how to exchange it myself, but that's not for everybody, not for my parents.)

As far as I picked up, Apple service is much more friendly in the US, for the same price (or less) so why can't they be the same over here?

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BTW

You also mention the seller. Are they expected to replace it from their own stock or does it go through the manufacturer? What if the manufacturer has since gone out of business?

I'm not sure if this is covered by the same law as the guarantee, but I do know that in the Netherlands, the seller is responsible for the guarantee.

It doesn't matter if the manufacturer has since gone out of business: One has an agreement with the seller.

 

[charlituna]

Of course not, the issue is however when, in the face of inquiries and demands, Apple refused to fix or replace a faulty item for free in the second year and instead told everyone that they need to pay for fixes, repairs or replaced (refurbished) units in that second year if they didn't have AppleCare when Apple was legally obligated to provide that fix for free.

No one has come forth with such a claim. Not in this cases. One guy on this site claims he was told to get a lawyer over an item that was over six months old but that's actually in compliance with the local law. The seller has every right to tell him he has to do that.

But not a single one of these investigations etc come from someone proving they had a valid claim against Apple under one of these laws and being told by Apple so shove off.

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How exactly?

So they're supposed to say "if this breaks down, you have a 2 year warranty with the seller, but you need to prove there was an inherent fault if it breaks after 6 months" when you buy something.
.

Yep that's exactly what they expect Apple to say. With every purchase

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What happens when your iMac brakes down after 13 months

Then it was most likely not an inherent fault present at time of delivery and in most countries its on you to prove otherwise at that point in time (most countries say anything after six months is is on you to prove. as it was not an inherent fault the seller isn't required to do jack for ya

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

Says the American who is in trillions of dollars of debt. Who's congress couldn't even come to an agreement until the last minute and almost sent the country down the toilet. And who's education system is completely substandard to pretty much every other western country.

Do not let us fill this forum with facts!

;-)

 

[snipper]

Quote:
Originally Posted by snipper:
What happens when your iMac brakes down after 13 months
Then it was most likely not an inherent fault present at time of delivery and in most countries its on you to prove otherwise at that point in time (most countries say anything after six months is is on you to prove. as it was not an inherent fault the seller isn't required to do jack for ya

That's very interesting but this article is about the EU, and it's EU law says: 2 years minimum guarantee.

If you think two years is long: It even says there is a right on partial guarantee after those 2 years, depending on the product and 'soft' conditions like 'expected product life'.

BTW
This guarantee is only for consumers.. not for business clients. There is no minimum guarantee for them.

 

[cjmillsnun]

This is simply wrong. If my headphone jack breaks after the year period is over I state in my complaint that the product is quite simply 'not fit for purpose'. A product should be able to be used as intended for a reasonable period of time. If Apple object I bring in the Office of Fair Trade (UK example). I can assure you I will get my product replaced or repaired under my two year warranty.

Please note I don't have to get some lawyer involved to get this done. My country offers me protection for such occurrences.

Yes but that is UK law, which is different to EU law.

We and the Italians have consumer laws that go beyond the EU minimum.

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That's very interesting but this article is about the EU, and it's EU law says: 2 years minimum guarantee.

If you think two years is long: It even says there is a right on partial guarantee after those 2 years, depending on the product and 'soft' conditions like 'expected product life'.

BTW
This guarantee is only for consumers.. not for business clients. There is no minimum guarantee for them.

No that isn't true.

The warranty is only on defective manufacture. If something breaks through wear and tear it is not covered.

You have to study the EU law to get exactly what is covered.

Apple's one year warranty provides more in that first year than is required by EU law. After that you have to prove the fault was down to a manufacturing defect or design flaw. Otherwise you're SOL. And before you ask I do know what I'm talking about here.

Also he was referring to the Netherlands, which last time I checked was part of the EU.

Also businesses have the same legal redress as consumers.

For clarification because Apple got this spot on..

 

[cjmillsnun]

No they love to sue Apple because Apple constantly tries to pass off the the poor customer protection services in the US in the EU.

Your buried chart may offer more detail but Apple UK are still trying to gloss over the warranty details.

http://www.apple.com/support/products/mac.html

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/APPLECAREMBP-102583/applecare-protection-plan-for-macbook-pro

Notice how they use the exact same simplified graphic for both and how in the UK version it does not reflect the warranty situation at all?

And in the case of iPhone Apple UK are basically trying to sell you the warranty coverage you get for free.

http://store.apple.com/uk/product/MC265ZM/A/app-for-iphone?fnode=4e

Nowhere on that page does it say that the second year is covered by the store.

On that UK page, directly under the graphic which clearly states APPLE warranty rather than statutary warranty

Apple One-Year Limited Warranty and AppleCare Protection Plan benefits are in addition to rights provided under consumer law. For details, click here. (with link)

Also my second year on my iPhone is not covered by Apple at all in the same way as the first year is. The coverage is only for manufacturing defects or design flaws. NOT for wear and tear. That would completely tally with the Sale of Goods Act in the UK. In the UK the Sale of Goods Act offers more protection to consumers than the EU directive, and has done since 1979.

 

[aristokrat]

Oh get a grip man. We have laws to protect the consumer, whether it is Apple or any other company. Example, when you buy a washing machine/Fridge/TV in the UK, you get 2 year warranty as standard (indeed if you purchase a TV at Costco you get 5 yrs warranty in the UK as standard!). Now as far as I know a washing machine has far more moving parts and is more likely to require repair than any Apple Kit. It is done free of charge within the first 2 years NO Questions asked. So what is wrong in requiring Apple or for that matter any reputable company "to put their money where their mouth is"?

I don't know about you, but my computer gets far more hours of use than my washing machine, so it is much more likely that I will wear out my computer through use.

As an ex-computer repair technician, I know that laptops are far more likely to fail than desktops, and I don't think it's because of the desktops themselves, but rather that people tend to be more careless with their portables. But even then, when they're computers come in with little bits of liquid residue on them and small dents to the corners, they always act like it's someone else's fault that the computer has stopped working. This is the big downside of consumer protection laws: they sometimes allow people to distance themselves even further from personal responsibility.

Personally, I think this issue can be solved simply: add half the cost of AppleCare to the cost of all the computers and give everyone the 2-year warranty they apparently want! (Maybe make it 35% cost of AppleCare if you don't want to include phone support and international coverage as default). Nothing in this world is free.

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my iphone 4s battery dies when out in the cold, my phone is a few months out or warranty (apples so called 1 year manufacturer warranty) I phoned them up yesterday asking for a free battery replacement as the battery is faulty, they asked me for £55, I stated the fact that i live in the UK and that their 1 year warranty meant nothing to me as being a previous I.T technician in my old job we took back faulty ipads, iphones, MBP's back to the stores over their 1 year warranty and had free replacements with no applecare whatsoever, they still denied me a free replacement, so i called back to a different team and finally got through to someone who had a bit of decency to them, after i explained that i had 2 kids and paid over £2,400 for apple products i refused to pay for a battery as under the uk warranty sceheme and sales of goods act that i was legally covered as i had been using the phone as normal with no damage whatsoever and that the battery fault had been inherent from when i first got the phone, aswell as the fact that when the phones in my pocket sometimes the screen stays black and the battery heats up really really hot almost burning me.

im going to the applestore on wednesday to get it checked out, then if theres no damage on thursday i get a replacement IPHONE! FOR FREE no applecare no nada! so the lesson is kids to keep calling trying different people distress your situation say your not happy, etc etc...

now i have to call up carphone warehouse because the other iphone i bought for the missus has a microphone problem which is incredibly annoying, i have a feeling they will try to make me pay... NOT GONNA HAPPEN.. also i bought her phone on my credit card anyone know if i have a right to claim back from the credit card company?

Do you think it's possible that you just wore your battery out? Batteries are like tires: you can wear them out through normal use. Even if you buy a Porsche, you can expect its tires to wear out quickly if you drive it 300 km a day. Adding cold weather to that (a known antagonist of batteries) isn't helping things. Or maybe your battery is fine and your phone software is just draining it (as evidenced by the phone getting really hot - sounds like a runaway process). But I guess that's a completely unreasonable idea...

 

[apolloa]

Countries see Apple's cash pile (mostly overseas) and they go "ching-ching".

I'm sorry but what?? In what way does Apple NOT selling Apple care add to the monetary incomes of European country's??? If anything they would WANT Apple to sell it so they get the tax of it! They aren't suing Apple ffks, they will force them to comply with the law or fine them!

 

[applesith]

First: a store purchases a product off from the manufacturer and then sells it to the customer, hence it is also in the interest of the store to sell perfect products. The shop usually just deals with the manufacturer in case of malfunctioning.

Of course Apple does act as its own reseller, when you go through an Apple store or online store.

That being said: fanboys are out in force today. Apple is making some of the highest margins from their products. With margins like that I simply expect top customer support and for example good working conditions for the suppliers, both of which Apples fails at. Since this is really part of the Apple experience take a look at why the stock is falling...

Then don't buy Apple products if they no longer worth the value.

That's not why their stock is dropping....sales are up on everything. It was a record quarter for them. Their margins are at the lowest they've been in a while as well.

I love how so many people here like to choose how much money is too much a company can make. And what the company needs to include.

My posts have not been as an apple fanboy. I've been consistently discussing the business management aspect of required extended warranties mandated by the government.

 

[thekev]

No, I am perfectly aware of EU law - and it has nothing to do with the manufacturer. The manufacturer has no legal responsibility under EU law or the Sale of Goods Act in the UK. None whatsoever.

The general rule of thumb (for like the 5th time in this thread) is that if it's less than 6 months old, the seller has to prove it was not inherently faulty. If it's older than 6 months, it's down to the you to prove that it was inherent faults. Anything other than inherent faults (i.e. faults that weren't present at the point of purchase/have developed) aren't covered. Either way, it's the Seller who is responsible. Fair or not, that's the law.

That suggests that a guarantee is unlikely unless the problem applies to that product or product line at a general level, an example being the Seagate drive issue with some Macs.

It doesn't matter if the manufacturer has since gone out of business: One has an agreement with the seller.

Okay so it's at the retailer level. I wasn't sure who had to make the guarantee. Edit: I meant to say at least in the Netherlands as you stated.

 

[iGrip]

So all of this is about a claim that the phrase "Apple One-Year Limited Warranty and AppleCare Protection Plan benefits are in addition to rights provided under consumer law. For details, click here." is not comprehensible to consumers?

No. There's a whole lot more to it than that.

But you knew that already...

 

[macs4nw]

When is Apple going to learn that screwing over its customers is bad business?

That's harsh, but I propose that a standard world-wide two year warranty on all their products would probably be a good idea, that shouldn't cost that much, given APPLE's build quality, and it would be a nice pre-emptive strike by APPLE to get rid of all this nasty negative publicity that crops up every time another country decides to jump on the 'misleading warranty coverage' bandwagon.

The slightly increased prices would be partly offset by a lower-cost optional third year of coverage.

 

[r3m1]

For clarification because Apple got this spot on..

Image

Apparently not

 

[tekno]

When is Apple going to learn that screwing over its customers is bad business?

Probably when they're not selling millions of products and earning billions in profits. Until sales slide, they'll keep ignoring laws and churning out the same products.

 

[Galatian]

Then don't buy Apple products if they no longer worth the value.

That's not why their stock is dropping....sales are up on everything. It was a record quarter for them. Their margins are at the lowest they've been in a while as well.

I love how so many people here like to choose how much money is too much a company can make. And what the company needs to include.

My posts have not been as an apple fanboy. I've been consistently discussing the business management aspect of required extended warranties mandated by the government.

Sorry if you felt offended directly. I was more pointing towards those fanboys who scream: "This is why Europe is broke." and the like...

Stock trading is a very delicate business and react to the smallest fluctuations. The drop quite certainly has to do with all the bad press Apple has gotten in the last few months. They get what the sow in my eyes and while their margins might be the lowest (though I yet have to see that except for maybe the 16 GB Wifi iPad mini), they still have some of, if not even the, highest profit margin in the industry.

I'm not complaining how much money Apple makes. If they have a certain value I pay for them. But - and this is key - if I'm spending my money fully knowing how much profit margin they have and then see a)how they tread their customers, b)how they tread their suppliers and c)how they engage in full blown cooperational warfare with my money it is simply my duty as a human being to at least question their motifs.

 

[beestigbeestje]

My Experience

I live in Belgium and have had many issues trying to get replacements for the 2nd year of warranty.

Had to go to 5 different stores before they would replace my iPhone 4, all stating Apple only gives 1 year of warranty.
The last store said " oke no problem, I'll send it "
One week later, a new device was waiting for me.
I mean, what the hell.. Why does one has to go to this much trouble?
There must be some miscommunication with the stores and Apple.
Or, Mobistar is too lazy to send off iPhones.

Same thing happened when trying to replace my 3GS. 4th store replaced it with no issue, the other stores said they couldn't cover my warranty.


This doesn't sound as Apple "just handing you the 2nd year as EU law states" DOES IT ?

 

[weckart]

Also businesses have the same legal redress as consumers.

They don't. All the laws mentioned in this thread refer specifically to consumers. Businesses have to rely on manufacturer warranties. Those will vary according to product or contract, but tend to be less generous than the terms of consumer protection laws. Their legal redress is typically limited to breach of contract.

 

[MarcelEdward]

Hopefully Apple will come to sense and make sure they comply to the eu laws. Just like all other people and company do.

I would save them a lots of bad publicity, a shipload of fines and dozens of laysuits it they do.

 

[eq-]

The general rule of thumb (for like the 5th time in this thread) is that if it's less than 6 months old, the seller has to prove it was not inherently faulty. If it's older than 6 months, it's down to the you to prove that it was inherent faults. Anything other than inherent faults (i.e. faults that weren't present at the point of purchase/have developed) aren't covered. Either way, it's the Seller who is responsible. Fair or not, that's the law.

A same thing can be expressed in numerous ways, which applies to this case as well.

"Proving inherent fault" most often simply means asserting that you've used the device in a normal fashion and given it's price and other factors it should've lasted longer - i.e. the inherent fault caused it to fail when it did.

Stores, as in the corporations that run them, would of course gladly not lose money by repairing or reimbursing the faulty product, which is why in many (EU) countries there exists strong consumer agencies to "enforce" good behaviour. After all, a damaged reputation is often much costlier than a few repairs every now and then.

Furthermore, none of this is "the" law, unless you're speaking only of the UK. EU members implement the EU directives in many different ways, and some may require proving inherent fault only after a longer period of time (don't know of any that do, but then again, I don't know many legislations by heart). The 2 years figure isn't set in stone, either: in some countries there isn't a definite limit at all!

This certainly doesn't mean that you could expect electronics to last forever (you can't), but you can expect them to last for "a reasonable time". It's thus far from unheard of to get a reimbursement for having a three-year-old machine fail, which in some ways renders AppleCare moot (and at the very least, a bit expensive for what it's worth).

 

[iGrip]

Probably when they're not selling millions of products and earning billions in profits. Until sales slide, they'll keep ignoring laws and churning out the same products.

Good point.

 

[SpyderBite]

Meanwhile here in the states I'm adding AC+ to my new iPhone and buying AC on two MBP I picked up last June.

Pay for warranties and don't break your ****. Lets be honest.. If something goes wrong with your computer after a year; it's probably your fault.

 

[snipper]

Lets be honest.. If something goes wrong with your computer after a year; it's probably your fault.

No matter how careful you are, a hard disk, motherboard, USB hub, power supply can fail at any time. I've been using Macs for decades and I'm always extremely careful with them, but even I encountered a few 'monday morning models'.

• A oxidizing laptop screen cable in the 1st generation Titanium PowerBook. Later it turned out that thousands of TiBP's suffered from this, there were rumors of a recall but it was a relatively exotic model so it never reached the 'critical numbers'.
• About all the hinges of all early models Titanium Powerbook broke or cracked sooner or later.
• A failing 13 months old hard disk of a 2006 iMac that was hardly used (Apple refused to replace despite legal obligation).
• A powerbook keyboard that lost keys (was immediately replaced by Apple without any questions).
• The (2600XT?) graphic card of the early 2008 Mac Pro that got a recall (free replacement) after ± a year because so many of them broke down.

And that's just what I encountered with half a dozen Mac over the last 15 years. Really, I'm still a huge Apple fan, but let's be realistic, nothing is perfect.