Apple Still Facing Criticism Over Warranty Issues in Europe as Lawsuits Spread to More Countries

[weckart]

Just a clarification: "Faulty" doesn't mean "not working". If a fan in your laptop is designed to work for three years, then a faulty fan could stop working after 18 months. That fan would have been faulty from day one; the fault isn't that it's not spinning and cooling your laptop, the fault is that it breaks too early.

Strictly speaking, that is a separate issue of durability and is not subject to the same time constraints that applies to faults. If you buy a high value item, there is a certain expectation as to how long it should operate. These times are not enshrined within law but are subject to the legal minefield term of 'reasonable expectation'. If your laptop has parts (batteries!) that wear out before they are expected to then you are automatically entitled to a replacement, repair or refund without having to establish a fault at manufacture.

A fault would be harder to detect - more like poor wiring in the psu or a faulty capacitor leading to mainboard failure.

 

[Stephen123]

So all of this is about a claim that the phrase "Apple One-Year Limited Warranty and AppleCare Protection Plan benefits are in addition to rights provided under consumer law. For details, click here." is not comprehensible to consumers?

Or is it that they want Apple to stop providing customer support and make people rely on the retailer (except when Apple is the retailer).

 

[applesith]

I wouldn't purchase any product of your company anyway if you are not confident enough in your product to at least give out a 2 year warranty...

And that's the whole point why consumers are upset about Apple (besides Apple purposefully screwing them over, with not correctly stating what warranty they have): Apple wants us to believe they sell premium products and ask a lot of money for it. I would at least expect them to proudly announce their products are so superior that they'll have a 2 year warranty everywhere, yet Apple just maximizes margins by screwing customers over...it's becoming harder and harder to support Apple

Many stores don't make what they sell. They are re-sellers, so why should they have to cover the cost of replacement or repair?

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Just to be clear here: The manufacturer is under no obligation to provide any warranty to end users / consumers (unless, of course, they acted as seller of their goods themselves). That means Apple is not required to provide any (manufacturer's) warranty by law if they didn't sell the device to the consumer.


Quite simple: By charging your customers more for your products. That fact that any seller, including your competitors, has to abide by the law, in effect levels the playing field.

And yes, that contributes to us Europeans often paying more for merchandise than in the US or Asia


You might have a claim against your supplier that allows you to fulfill warranty obligations.

So only the retailer has to provide the warranty? The retailer doesn't know the manufacturing process and specs for each part used. How could they possibly account for all issues? I love how all you Europeans want someone else to have to pay for a benefit you have. Because stuff isn't free, prices go up. Then you are constantly complaining about high prices whenever new products are released. No pleasing you.

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Let's say you open a store that sells iPads. If you buy your iPads at Costco and sell them with some markup, then that's a bad business idea, and payments for statutory rights will eat you alive. What you will be doing is to sign a contract with Apple; and that contract will tell you exactly what Apple will pay you if you have to fix a problem with an Apple product.

If you buy from a manufacturer who you think will not reimburse you for that kind of cost (because they just won't, or they will avoid paying out, or they might go bankrupt), you must make sure that your markup is higher accordingly.

And just saying: _All_ products are subject to this law.

Such a waste of resources. Why should everyone have to pay higher prices across the board when issues aren't likely to happen to most people? Instead, each person can choose to buy coverage and/or pay the cost of repair or the warranty for their own device. I don't see why everyone must pay more just so people don't have to think when buying something.

 

[bawbac]

It's how aggressively they push Extended Apple care and tell people the warranty is 12 months.

Apple is worse at coercing a new purchase for Apple Care than Best Buy with their Geek Squad warranty. I've said no numberous times and they keep going on and on hoping you will cave.

 

[macrem]

If repair or replacement under the 2-year guarantee rules is not possible within a reasonable time or without inconvenience, you may ask for a refund or a price reduction.

Source: European Consumer Centres Network

Well, that law sure has razor sharp teeth

 

[GermanyChris]

Countries see Apple's cash pile (mostly overseas) and they go "ching-ching".

Have a peek at the German economy..

So the moral of the story is that the EU wants Apple to hand hold customers through warranty regulation when someone is trying to make a purchase?

How about this EU.....how about you tell your own citizens to be better versed on their own rights instead of trying to regulate industry to do it for you.

How about the store selling the stuff is actually honest..

So if I ran my business in the EU, I'd have to offer an additional warranty past one year of the manufacturer just because I am selling it? How can small businesses survive this requirement? I would never open a business in the EU for any products subject to this law.

Only large businesses can afford to offer such warranty and this screws over small businesses.

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No, they don't and who is to say what their margins should be?

Funny people start small businesses everyday, in my case if someone tells me something broke in a computer I build them I replace the part then RMA it with the manufacturer and keep the replaced part in stock, it's really not that hard.

 

[EwanMcTeagle]

I'm sorry, but they do comply with European law. However, is the EU expecting them to tell people about their rights when they purchase? Surely it's your own responsibility to know your own rights.

Do they inform you about food hygiene requirements when you go to a restaurant? Or alcohol licensing terms when you buy a pint? Do car dealers inform you about the highway code when you buy a car?

By the same logic, if you're fined for playing golf in a park, or not picking up dog crap - you can't use the excuse "there were no signs" - you're expected to know.

Well, it's not the same
• "Do they inform you about food hygiene requirements when you go to a restaurant... " - no, but they don't try to sell me the knowledge about the requirements which is free anyway just as the car dealer doesn't try to sell me a highway guidebook for an additional price...

Of course everyone should know their rights - that would be perfect. But not everyone is a lawyer, you don’t every law, bill with its interpretations etc. And the thing is that when a serious company like Apple advertises it’s AppleCare in a way that suggests that the basic warranty is for 1 year - it’s simply misleading - though Apple isn’t the only one, because I’ve noticed that almost every major electronic reseller (like Media Markt) is doing basically the same thing, though they add the word „additional” between the lines.
Nevertheless what Apple is doing is simply misleading - and I think that if they were honest about it they wouldn’t much if anything, since AppleCare has 1 major advantage - that is, you don’t have to prove that the flaw has been there „on the arrival”.
Nevertheless, in EU for example, if your equipment fails within first 6 months after purchase it’s the manufacturer’s or seller’s duty to prove that it has been okay when it’s been sold to you - which is really a good thing for the customer.
And, as someone said before - as Apple is really charging premium for its products it should give premium warranty - when I buy Wharfedale speakers I get 5 years of door-to-door service, when I buy a Denon amplituner I get 3 years...

 

[hirukopt]

I have just registered on this forum because of this topic. So here is a bit of context...

in the year i converted to apple, I spent on apple products over 12000 euros, and about 4500 euros in apple products each of the following years, following the trends and new releases. Until one of my MBPs had a hard drive death, in its 13th month.

As a EU citizen with a EU bought product, I activated the mandated warranty of 2 years. And both seller and Apple said, and wrote to their error, that apple was special and only gives 1 year warranty. Over 4 months I waisted my time with trips to the re-seller and on the phone with apple, they even asked me for all my serial numbers... And used it as a stall tactic, has in my country you only have 6 months to file a legal action. Even when our law states that the product should be fixed up to 30 days after the product is returned.

Thankfully, I had the resources to start my own legal action against Apple and the re-seller. And like me, I have seen several people in stores getting the same BS...

Honestly I don't really care how much money apple makes, or the prices they practice here and there. I just want what is my legal right to be respected and not enforced.

I am still an apple consumer, and almost a iFan... But I have to say from all this ordeal apple has the worst costumer relation I have seen.

If you guys want, on the 15th of April the judge will do it sentencing on my case, I can scan and send a copy as proof.

 

[Carniphage]

Sure they do. There is a link on the "Apple Care" page that leads to all the information you could want.

Trouble is, instead of quoting from the web-page. Or directing customers to take a look. (Or just saying nothing at all...)

...Apple employees provide inaccurate information to consumers about the protection on offer, in order to present Apple Care in a more favourable light.

However you spin it, this is underhand. It does not come up to the high standards that Apple is justly famous for.

Apple has a great asset in the loyalty of its customers. They don't just spend their money in the store, they act as ambassadors for the brand. This kind of shenanigans isn't worthy of them, and could damage that loyalty.

 

[applesith]

Funny people start small businesses everyday, in my case if someone tells me something broke in a computer I build them I replace the part then RMA it with the manufacturer and keep the replaced part in stock, it's really not that hard.

I see how that may work for computers you build. But what about a Macbook Air or an iPad? Pretty much need to replace the whole thing or at least the logic board for many parts. These items aren't easily serviceable by anyone. And with a 2 year window, you would have to keep extra units in stock past their normal distribution. Small business are supposed to sink money into extra units just for replacements when the margins on these item are slim enough?

 

[baryon]

I think that free warranty should last as long as you should expect the product to last. When you buy a MacBook Pro for thousands, do you expect to buy a new one a year later because you expect it to break, and you think that's normal? I doubt it, so warranty should be longer than that. Warranty means that you are also buying a guarantee that the product will work for that amount of time.

Consequently, you can imagine that your product cannot be guaranteed to work after the warranty has expired, meaning that the product was never designed to last longer than one year, in Apple's case. That just means products are of poor quality and promote consumerism, excess waste production and buying more things you don't need.

If your products are so great, why do you only guarantee they will only function for a year? What's wrong with them, won't they last longer?

I think 2 years is a minimum logical warranty for anything that costs as much as an Apple product.

 

[GermanyChris]

I see how that may work for computers you build. But what about a Macbook Air or an iPad? Pretty much need to replace the whole thing or at least the logic board for many parts. These items aren't easily serviceable by anyone. And with a 2 year window, you would have to keep extra units in stock past their normal distribution. Small business are supposed to sink money into extra units just for replacements when the margins on these item are slim enough?

Small Apple shops will just RMA the board or get a refund from Apple. You also have to remember the Apple Authorized Service Centers don't look at your computer for free, if you take something to them and they decide it's not under warranty you pay the diagnostic fee, for my local guy thats 62 euro ($79.89) per hour billed in 1/2 hour increments. For my local PC shop it cost 30 euro to hand it to him, if they decide it's not under warranty you pay the bill minus the original 30 euro. Like all repair Labor is the money maker not parts..

European companies in my experience don't keep things in stock like their American peers. You cannot buy everything at any time that applies to all things.

As long as Apple still stock the parts you'll get them in 1 to 2 days do your repair and have a three day turnaround..

 

[applesith]

I think that free warranty should last as long as you should expect the product to last. When you buy a MacBook Pro for thousands, do you expect to buy a new one a year later because you expect it to break, and you think that's normal? I doubt it, so warranty should be longer than that. Warranty means that you are also buying a guarantee that the product will work for that amount of time.

Consequently, you can imagine that your product cannot be guaranteed to work after the warranty has expired, meaning that the product was never designed to last longer than one year, in Apple's case. That just means products are of poor quality and promote consumerism, excess waste production and buying more things you don't need.

If your products are so great, why do you only guarantee they will only function for a year? What's wrong with them, won't they last longer?

I think 2 years is a minimum logical warranty for anything that costs as much as an Apple product.

Because it's a nightmare for financial reporting and managing a business. A MacBook should work for at least 5 years in my experience. With reasoning, Apple will have a liability for every MacBook for 5 years past its sale date. It's the same reason stores only offer a limited time for making a return. You have to be able to close the books and finalize the revenue and costs for everything sold. Keeping everything outstanding for so long doesn't make sense.

Small Apple shops will just RMA the board or get a refund from Apple. You also have to remember the Apple Authorized Service Centers don't look at your computer for free, if you take something to them and they decide it's not under warranty you pay the diagnostic fee, for my local guy thats 62 euro ($79.89) per hour billed in 1/2 hour increments. For my local PC shop it cost 30 euro to hand it to him, if they decide it's not under warranty you pay the bill minus the original 30 euro. Like all repair Labor is the money maker not parts..

European companies in my experience don't keep things in stock like their American peers. You cannot buy everything at any time that applies to all things.

As long as Apple still stock the parts you'll get them in 1 to 2 days do your repair and have a three day turnaround..

Not all retailers offer repair services. For stores that do, does Apple compensate you for the labor you paid to your staff? Base on your wording, the customer doesn't pay anything if under warranty. Just wondering who picks up the bill for labor costs.

 

[AppliedMicro]

So only the retailer has to provide the warranty? The retailer doesn't know the manufacturing process and specs for each part used. How could they possibly account for all issues?

Simple enough: You have a contract with your supplier stating that defects will be taken care or costs reimbursed.

And yes, most suppliers are actually willing to enter into such contracts. Otherwise they'd be largely missing out on the big EU market - which also has (relatively) plenty of purchasing power.

Though, admittedly, it can be a problem with more "exotic" merchandise, especially when there is lack of regional/global supply chain. "Small" stores may be acting as small importers themselves, thus bearing the risk of defects themselves. These products' prices can be substantially higher.

But it's certainly not a problem with high-volume and/or global brand products.

Such a waste of resources. Why should everyone have to pay higher prices across the board when issues aren't likely to happen to most people? Instead, each person can choose to buy coverage and/or pay the cost of repair or the warranty for their own device

Well... in this regard it's not unlike an insurance policy:
With all people paying, every customer (consumer) pays a small, sometimes even marginal amount.

Otherwise, if they weren't to pay the "insurance" mandated by law, few "unlucky" customers with defective products would pay a disproportionally high amount for their repairs (with Apple products, that is).

Of course, that's not the only reason for consumer rights laws.
They also keep companies from "screwing" customers and discourage sales of bad (and in some cases unsafe!) products.

 

[applesith]

Simple enough: You have a contract with your supplier stating that defects will be taken care or costs reimbursed.

And yes, most suppliers are actually willing to enter into such contracts. Otherwise they'd be largely missing out on the big EU market - which also has (relatively) plenty of purchasing power.

Though, admittedly, it can be a problem with more "exotic" merchandise, especially when there is lack of regional/global supply chain. "Small" stores may be acting as small importers themselves, thus bearing the risk of defects themselves. These products' prices can be substantially higher.

But it's certainly not a problem with high-volume and/or global brand products.


Well... in this regard it's not unlike an insurance policy:
With all people paying, every customer (consumer) pays a small, sometimes even marginal amount.

Otherwise, if they weren't to pay the "insurance" mandated by law, few "unlucky" customers with defective products would pay a disproportionally high amount for their repairs (with Apple products, that is).

Of course, that's not the only reason for consumer rights laws.
They also keep companies from "screwing" customers and discourage sales of bad (and in some cases unsafe!) products.

It's a matter of forcing someone to buy insurance. And with anything "included for no extra fee" such as a warranty on a MacBook or universal healthcare, it has to be paid by someone. When those using the services should actually be paying for them and not everyone who doesn't need/choose to buy. But then again it seems many places are moving towards mandated purchases with higher prices for everyone to cover the costs regardless of the effectiveness.

 

[GermanyChris]

Because it's a nightmare for financial reporting and managing a business. A MacBook should work for at least 5 years in my experience. With reasoning, Apple will have a liability for every MacBook for 5 years past its sale date. It's the same reason stores only offer a limited time for making a return. You have to be able to close the books and finalize the revenue and costs for everything sold. Keeping everything outstanding for so long doesn't make sense.



Not all retailers offer repair services. For stores that do, does Apple compensate you for the labor you paid to your staff? Base on your wording, the customer doesn't pay anything if under warranty. Just wondering who picks up the bill for labor costs.

If Apple works like most large corporations they pay for parts and labor, but this is an educated guess nothing more.

 

[Lancer]

Personally I think AppleCare is worth it but I guess it comes down to the buyer being informed about their choice and rights. If people choose to spend $1000s on a new computer without research then they are idiots. Its like the whole 4G iPhone issue, the limitations of the 4s were well known the day it was launched and a simple Google search would tell you all you need to know. Or at least get you to ask questions at the retailer.

I got AppleCare for my new 27" for piece of mind and hope I never have to use it, just like I hope I never need my backups but it's nice they are their is something goes wrong. I have free phone support and other features not offered but the standard warranty or current laws.

Are the prices too high, maybe? I know the MBP it costs a lot more than my iMac or a Mac Mini, why? You can buy a 5 year extended warranty for a PVR at some retailers for $99, yes a PVR is much simpler than an iMac but still for a full 5 years of cover I'd get it. I wish I had got it for my current PVR which has been fixed twice. First time under the normal warranty and later when I had to pay for repairs, next time it quits I'll be getting a new one. Although it's less than 2 years old so I wonder if it's now covered again?

With the recent changes here in Australia I'll be calling the store I bought my iMac through to see what the changes mean for me.

 

[baryon]

Because it's a nightmare for financial reporting and managing a business. A MacBook should work for at least 5 years in my experience. With reasoning, Apple will have a liability for every MacBook for 5 years past its sale date. It's the same reason stores only offer a limited time for making a return. You have to be able to close the books and finalize the revenue and costs for everything sold. Keeping everything outstanding for so long doesn't make sense.

I just found it extremely unfair when my £1500 MacBook Pro's superdrive, graphics card, screen, CPU fan and battery all failed one after the other one year and a few weeks after purchase. I felt like Apple should repair my high tech, top of the line, best in the world computer that I bought not long ago, thinking that it would be a great investment for the future. I spent all my money on it and I couldn't afford AppleCare at the time (or anything else for that matter, for a few months following the purchase), and I didn't feel like I should spend even more on such an expensive computer anyway.

It's simply not right to say that it's very possible that you'll have to buy a new computer every year. When you buy a Mac, do you buy it thinking that it will last only one year, and any extra time is bonus, or do you secretly hope that it will probably be fine for a couple of years? You're therefore adding a lot of perceived value to the machine when buying it, value that Apple doesn't provide you with. When you buy an Apple computer, you're only buying it for a year, the time beyond that is just hope and good luck.

Car manufacturers are pushing their warranties further, I think Nissan or someone has 7 year warranties, even though a car is far more likely to fail since it actually has moving parts, but can cost as little as twice the price of an Apple computer. How is this fair? A computer nowadays has no moving parts (only the fan), so it simply has no excuse for failing, so Apple should be comfortable giving us years of warranty. Unless they know that their soldering materials are poor and become brittle when heated, that their batteries die prematurely, etc… In which case they should fix those issues instead of limiting their warranty.

Other computers and electronics (in the EU) most of the time come with 3 years of warranty, and I thought that's normal. You'd think a better quality product would come with even more, not three times less!

 

[7709876]

I bought an external HD in an Apple shop. It failed after about 6months the other day.

After speaking to Applecare and trying to get it working they suggested I return it to where I bought it. That happened to be Apple.

The "genius" ran a diagnosis and agreed it was faulty. He then said the warranty was with the manufacturer and I would need to return it to them.

I am in the UK and that is contrary to the law here. The contract of sale exists between the retailer and the customer - the manufacturer isn't involved. I think it is the same across the rest of the EU.

I managed to explain the legal position calmly and politely to the "genius" who then passed me to a manager to swopped the drive out with a new one.

The outcome was fine but the company line of "your warranty is with the manufacturer not us" shows that Apple has a blatant disregard for consumer law here in the UK at least.

 

[weckart]

As a EU citizen with a EU bought product, I activated the mandated warranty of 2 years.

Guarantee, not warranty. Apple as manufacturer provides the warranty of 12 months. Your retailer, if not Apple, provides a two year guarantee. Warranties and guarantees are not the same thing. The main thing is what your country, which you don't mention, has implemented in its law. Just because the EU issues directives does not necessarily mean that they have any legal force in any particular member state. Lots of directives remain ignored years after being passed by the EU.

Here is a publication from the EU showing the amount of EU directives still to be implemented by each member state (transposed is the EU term for this) as of February 2013.

http://ec.europa.eu/internal_market/score/docs/score26_en.pdf

 

[macingman]

If people in the EU need to be handheld to buy an extended warranty it certainly explains why they are having so many financial problems over there.

Says the American who is in trillions of dollars of debt. Who's congress couldn't even come to an agreement until the last minute and almost sent the country down the toilet. And who's education system is completely substandard to pretty much every other western country.

 

[7709876]

Says the American who is in trillions of dollars of debt. Who's congress couldn't even come to an agreement until the last minute and almost sent the country down the toilet. And who's education system is completely substandard to pretty much every other western country.

Good darts.

 

[applesith]

I just found it extremely unfair when my £1500 MacBook Pro's superdrive, graphics card, screen, CPU fan and battery all failed one after the other one year and a few weeks after purchase. I felt like Apple should repair my high tech, top of the line, best in the world computer that I bought not long ago, thinking that it would be a great investment for the future. I spent all my money on it and I couldn't afford AppleCare at the time (or anything else for that matter, for a few months following the purchase), and I didn't feel like I should spend even more on such an expensive computer anyway.

It's simply not right to say that it's very possible that you'll have to buy a new computer every year. When you buy a Mac, do you buy it thinking that it will last only one year, and any extra time is bonus, or do you secretly hope that it will probably be fine for a couple of years? You're therefore adding a lot of perceived value to the machine when buying it, value that Apple doesn't provide you with. When you buy an Apple computer, you're only buying it for a year, the time beyond that is just hope and good luck.

Car manufacturers are pushing their warranties further, I think Nissan or someone has 7 year warranties, even though a car is far more likely to fail since it actually has moving parts, but can cost as little as twice the price of an Apple computer. How is this fair? A computer nowadays has no moving parts (only the fan), so it simply has no excuse for failing, so Apple should be comfortable giving us years of warranty. Unless they know that their soldering materials are poor and become brittle when heated, that their batteries die prematurely, etc… In which case they should fix those issues instead of limiting their warranty.

Other computers and electronics (in the EU) most of the time come with 3 years of warranty, and I thought that's normal. You'd think a better quality product would come with even more, not three times less!

It does stink when all that happens right after the warranty expires, I agree. I've had out of warranty issues for a couple products and Apple helped me out and I've heard of many similar experiences on MacRumors. I'm not saying they always do this, but Apple is known to provide great service all around for the most part.

In the USA, you have one year from purchase to buy Apple Care for your computer. I know that helps me spread out the cost on new devices.

 

[Galatian]

Many stores don't make what they sell. They are re-sellers, so why should they have to cover the cost of replacement or repair?

First: a store purchases a product off from the manufacturer and then sells it to the customer, hence it is also in the interest of the store to sell perfect products. The shop usually just deals with the manufacturer in case of malfunctioning.

Of course Apple does act as its own reseller, when you go through an Apple store or online store.

That being said: fanboys are out in force today. Apple is making some of the highest margins from their products. With margins like that I simply expect top customer support and for example good working conditions for the suppliers, both of which Apples fails at. Since this is really part of the Apple experience take a look at why the stock is falling...

 

[7709876]

That being said: fanboys are out in force today. Apple is making some of the highest margins from their products. With margins like that I simply expect top customer support and for example good working conditions for the suppliers, both of which Apples fails at. Since this is really part of the Apple experience take a look at why the stock is falling...

I expect my £2200 Apple computer to last longer than a cheap, generic "beige box" for £300

My guess is most European judges would view it in a similar way.