Apple Still Fighting for Smaller SIM Card Standard for Future iPhones

[the8thark]

Fine - but for something like this - there shouldn't be a patent involved. If there is to be a universal standard than no one should own a patent on it.

There should be a patent yes. So there is an owner/inventor of said technology. But there should be no payments required to use said technology. it should be come an open free to use standard.

 

[zorinlynx]

I hope Apple doesn't get their way here. We don't need yet ANOTHER sim card standard.

It's bad enough that I can't easily move my micro-SIM to another phone if my iPhone should go out of commission. Now they're going to introduce yet another standard, requiring more adapters and uncertainty about what will work?

Screw that. Micro-SIMs are small enough already. Besides, the iPhone needn't get any smaller; at this point if we could use anything it's a slightly larger screen.

 

[ericrwalker]

I hope Apple doesn't get their way here. We don't need yet ANOTHER sim card standard.

It's bad enough that I can't easily move my micro-SIM to another phone if my iPhone should go out of commission. Now they're going to introduce yet another standard, requiring more adapters and uncertainty about what will work?

Screw that. Micro-SIMs are small enough already. Besides, the iPhone needn't get any smaller; at this point if we could use anything it's a slightly larger screen.

Just because you think the sim is small enough doesn't mean they can't or shouldn't make it smaller. The sim takes up more space than just the size of the sim. You have the sim tray and the sim card reader electronics inside. That is precious space that could be use to improve battery life.

 

[hchung]

Well, no, you're wrong about the 4 and the 4S working on the exact same networks. The 4 is a GSM/UMTS phone that had a later CDMA model released. They're separate.

The iPhone 4S is GSM/UMTS/CDMA all on one radio. One phone model though the CDMA is, AFAIK, totally disabled in software for networks other than Verizon and Sprint. This is what Verizon and Sprint call a "global phone" (unlike Verizon's iPhone 4 which had CDMA only).

Verizon and Sprint CDMA global phones use a SIM card ONLY when roaming outside the United States. For Verizon, this is provided by their part-owner Vodafone. It is homed to either Vodafone UK or Vodafone NL and has a British or Dutch number that when online automatically tells Verizon's network in the US to forward incoming calls to it. It's a hack-job mess of global roaming. When at home in the US, the phone's MEID is used to authenticate it on the CDMA network.

With Verizon LTE phones, which use LTE for data and CDMA for voice (and data in non-LTE markets), Verizon uses a SIM card for ALL authentication. USIM application for LTE authentication, and CSIM application for CDMA authentication. This SIM card can be freely swapped between all Verizon LTE devices. I was telling the person that he was incorrect about the SIM not being used for CDMA *in Verizon LTE phones*

Now, my big question - why do the iPhone 4S (and other global roaming CDMA phones) not use the same SIM cards with USIM and CSIM? For that matter, why do they have no global roaming LTE phones (no Verizon LTE phones last I checked have GSM/UMTS)?

I don't know the technical reason (if any) for this, I only posted what I did to clarify that there's a HUGE difference between the SIM Verizon uses in CDMA global phones (a Vodafone SIM used only for international GSM/UMTS roaming) and the SIM Verizon uses in LTE phones (an actual Verizon SIM used for all authentication including CDMA vis CSIM).

1. Perhaps the reason is marketing (SIM swapping is a cool new LTE feature...).

2. Perhaps the reason is roaming agreements (i.e. Verizon may not want to negotiate a full set of International roaming agreements, instead preferring to rely as they do now on the global roaming agreements of their 45% parent Vodafone).

3. Perhaps there are unresolved technical switching considerations required in bringing roaming voice traffic from the GSM MAP core into Verizon's legacy ANSI-41 MAP. Here is a white paper from 3GPP2 (the people officially behind CDMA, basically a front for Qualcomm) on how this can be accomplished though: http://www.3gpp2.org/public_html/specs/N.S0028-0_v1.0.pdf

I'm inclined to believe it's a mix of 2 and 3. That not only would they have to negotiate roaming agreements all over the world (instead of using Vodafone's), they'd have to work with these carriers to help implement GSM/ANSI-41 interoperability. While obviously, due to their part ownership, it should be no problem getting Vodafone to do this, other international carriers - especially in smaller countries may be more reluctant.

These issues may need to be resolved, at least domestically anyway, before Verizon can start the migration to VoLTE, which will use Diameter, the replacement and official migration path from the GSM MAP. Where are the LTE global phones? Perhaps we won't see any until VoLTE is implemented and Verizon is using Diameter all around, including for voice traffic. What will happen when these subscribers leave the Verizon LTE coverage area? While Verizon will have the vast majority, if not all, of their native coverage overlaid with LTE before they deploy VoLTE on any wide scale. But what happens when these customers go to say, Alaska, where Verizon has no service? Today they roam on a local CDMA network. Will Verizon VoLTE phones support CDMA and have ANSI-41 interoperability working? Will Verizon VoLTE phones be GSM/UMTS/LTE devices and roam on arch-rival AT&T in those areas? What about global phones? If Verizon's main switching for VoLTE is Diameter and they use ANSI-41 interoperability to roam domestically in areas without Verizon LTE coverage, then foreign carriers would have no potential ANSI-41 compatibility issues. I could see VoLTE bringing a substantial loss of coverage to Verizon customers if they don't implement ANSI-41 interoperability with rural CDMA carriers and they don't allow GSM/UMTS roaming on arch-rival AT&T. Perhaps that's the point behind Verizon's LTE in Rural America program?

It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

As for LTE roaming, sure it exists. Not deployed yet, but the capability is there. But at approx US$2-10/MB in data roaming charges (depending where you are in the world and who your home network is) and the insane number of bands LTE is getting shoehorned into, who wants it yet?

UPDATE - I corrected myself. LTE does not use the GSM MAP (aka SS7/MAP) as we know it. It uses a new protocol called Diameter which is the intended replacement for the GSM MAP.

UPDATE 2 - The necessary integration, whatever it may be, might be coming soon. Further research shows that both the Motorola Droid 4 and LG Spectrum have radio chipsets with support for GSM/UMTS; and early leaked inside information stated they'd be global roaming phones. While it's possible this means nothing (both the iPhone 4 and 4S have radio chipsets supporting UMTS-1700 for example...), there is a possibility (if other needed hardware is in place) that a future firmware upgrade could enable this ability and an unnamed "Verizon representative" apparently states it will. Take with a huge grain of salt: http://pocketnow.com/android/verizon-confirms-global-roaming-for-new-lte-smartphones

I'm inclined to believe you're mostly correct.

I think the reason there's no LTE roaming is because there are so many bands for LTE that it's just there's no viable roaming partners.

There's probably never going to be UMTS roaming for Verizon with AT&T simply because there will rarely ever be a phone with both, and given the size of the network, you're better off staying on Verizon's network anyway. Roaming costs the companies money both in agreements and infrastructure overhead. I recall a while back that Sprint and Verizon have a roaming agreement, but it's unidirectional: Sprint phones roam on Verizon, but not the other way around. Somebody might need to clarify that as I've never went out to fully verify that.

As for phones like the Droid 4, it's not likely that UTMS will ever be activated because even if the support hardware is already there, it'd have to be re-certified as a new phone and given the rate these phones get discontinued, it just isn't feasible. Which leads me to believe that they'd know this and not even include the extra parts that would normally go unused.

People need to know that RF hardware isn't just plug and play. It takes more engineering time and effort to cram small high frequency devices in a compact space because they interfere with each other.

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I hope Apple doesn't get their way here. We don't need yet ANOTHER sim card standard.

It's bad enough that I can't easily move my micro-SIM to another phone if my iPhone should go out of commission. Now they're going to introduce yet another standard, requiring more adapters and uncertainty about what will work?

Screw that. Micro-SIMs are small enough already. Besides, the iPhone needn't get any smaller; at this point if we could use anything it's a slightly larger screen.

In other words, no matter who wins, you're going to be unhappy. Regardless of whether or not Apple gets it their way there will be another SIM card standard.

Micro-SIM was a standard even before iPhone 4. Apple only made it popular.

 

[AllieNeko]

I'm inclined to believe you're mostly correct.

I think the reason there's no LTE roaming is because there are so many bands for LTE that it's just there's no viable roaming partners.

There's probably never going to be UMTS roaming for Verizon with AT&T simply because there will rarely ever be a phone with both, and given the size of the network, you're better off staying on Verizon's network anyway. Roaming costs the companies money both in agreements and infrastructure overhead. I recall a while back that Sprint and Verizon have a roaming agreement, but it's unidirectional: Sprint phones roam on Verizon, but not the other way around. Somebody might need to clarify that as I've never went out to fully verify that.

As for phones like the Droid 4, it's not likely that UTMS will ever be activated because even if the support hardware is already there, it'd have to be re-certified as a new phone and given the rate these phones get discontinued, it just isn't feasible. Which leads me to believe that they'd know this and not even include the extra parts that would normally go unused.

People need to know that RF hardware isn't just plug and play. It takes more engineering time and effort to cram small high frequency devices in a compact space because they interfere with each other.

The FCC would need to authorize the additional modes, if they allowed GSM/UMTS on 850/1900/AWS, yes.

Verizon absolutely roams on Sprint, it used to be Verizon customers could access pretty much the whole Sprint network. Today, that's been dramatically reduced to a tiny fraction of what it once was.

And yes, the radio hardware and certification issue is why I said take with a HUGE grain of salt the anonymous Verizon rep who apparently said GSM/UMTS would be added to the Droid 4 and LG Spectrum in a firmware update.

But as for never roaming on AT&T, in a pure-VoLTE Verizon world, GSM/UMTS/VoLTE phones could be technically easier than CDMA/VoLTE phones. AT&T would provide better roaming coverage in the state Verizon doesn't serve (Alaska). It would also cover many if not most of the other areas Verizon currently roams on smaller CDMA providers. They roamed on each other in the AMPS days, and while they may be bitter enemies, if it was good for business for both, I could see it happening.

 

[adder7712]

I hope Apple doesn't get their way here. We don't need yet ANOTHER sim card standard.

It's bad enough that I can't easily move my micro-SIM to another phone if my iPhone should go out of commission. Now they're going to introduce yet another standard, requiring more adapters and uncertainty about what will work?

Screw that. Micro-SIMs are small enough already. Besides, the iPhone needn't get any smaller; at this point if we could use anything it's a slightly larger screen.

I thought micro-sims are designed to be reverse compatible?

 

[Revelation78]

Yep, sure looks like Apple is trying to make a lot of money off of licensing...

Apple ready to license its nano-SIM design for free, on one not-so-nano condition

/sarcasm...