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"Apple was seeking an agreement that allow it to offer a streaming music service to customers for $7.99 a month rather than the standard $9.99 rate. However, Apple was forced to back down after record labels resisted the change."
Someone please explain that to me. I would think Apple could charge whatever they want for their service, now, if the labels don't give them a good deal, then Apple will have to charge more because they don't want to take a hit financially. If the label said we are not cutting our price, Apple, in theory, could charge customers less then competitors and thereby make up for the loss by taking in more customers. It seems like the article is saying the labels can dictate to Apple what they charge for their service. Do they mean Apple chooses to back down because they dont want to take a hit or do labels actually dictate what streaming services can charge. Don't see how that's possible.

Of course Apple can do what it wants. But it is all related. So yes Apple doesn't want to give away service for free and the Industry players were not willing to take less money on a per customer basis. Sure Apple could charge $7.99 and give the Industry guys $7.00. Heck, Apple could give the Industry guys $50 per customer if Apple wanted to have a huge loss on the deal. Industry can't dictate but they can decide if their songs are available or not. But for that they don't care what Apple charges the consumers. They just care what they get paid.

Apple was looking for Industry to give up per customer dollars in return (Apple would argue) for many many more customers than the other music services will ever convert to paying customers.
 
I love your dry sense of humour; you must be English.

Nope, Canadian eh? Although my wife's insatiable appetite for Monty Don has made me somewhat of a reluctant anglophile, not that this is any more useful than a chocolate teapot.

HAHA. Don't forget "BTW, we made a watch! It's beautiful. It tells time. It does notifications....um yea so there's that."

That's the 'One more thing...' Oo! Maybe there'll be a, wait for it... new baaaaand! How could there not be? If they release a new type of clasp, it'll provide all the Apple podcasters with fodder until the iPhone event.

/yeesh. Yes, I think I *am* a wee bit too cynical this time around for my own good.
 
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"Apple was seeking an agreement that allow it to offer a streaming music service to customers for $7.99 a month rather than the standard $9.99 rate. However, Apple was forced to back down after record labels resisted the change."
Someone please explain that to me. I would think Apple could charge whatever they want for their service, now, if the labels don't give them a good deal, then Apple will have to charge more because they don't want to take a hit financially. If the label said we are not cutting our price, Apple, in theory, could charge customers less then competitors and thereby make up for the loss by taking in more customers. It seems like the article is saying the labels can dictate to Apple what they charge for their service. Do they mean Apple chooses to back down because they dont want to take a hit or do labels actually dictate what streaming services can charge. Don't see how that's possible.

Conceptually Apple could play wholesaler (much like Netflix does with video), lease access to all music on acceptable terms and use the war chest of cash to give it all away for free if it liked. It doesn't like. The $7.99 price is Apple trying to out-price well-established competition. More simply, it's Apple trying to win consumers by offering a lower price. HOW they want to offer that lower price involves them still getting to maximize the profits for themselves. So they want the owners of the content to take the hit so that Apple can be further enriched.

The owners of the content say "no"... wanting to make more money next year, not less (just like Apple), so they'd rather get a cut of established players streaming tiers priced at $9.99 than a smaller cut of Apple's proposed $7.99 version of the same. The ADF will counter "volume!": how stupid the industry is to pass up all the revenue that can be made from the volume that will come with Apple's version of streaming music. But the content OWNERS think they can get the same volume at established price points without having to take the hit solely to further enrich Apple.

Conceptually, $9.99 means that some that might have jumped from Spotify, etc at $9.99 to Apple won't jump... but then the content OWNERS get what they wanted to get from Spotify for those that stick with Spotify. Those that do go with Apple at $9.99/month delivers the same net to the ONWERS of the content. If we can be objective, they are basically encouraging Apple to win over streaming clients on merits other than price.

Now, if Apple would insure the OWNERS of the content that they would make just as much at $7.99 (which would probably involve Apple taking the hit on itself and/or subsidizing this service much like Netflx does), Apple would be pitching a more win:win scenario to the OWNERS of the content. That could very well work. But Apple wants it's profits so the way to preserve them at $7.99/month is for the OWNERS of the content to take the hit. It should be no surprise that they don't want to do that.

Lastly, music has some value. The owners of that product don't covet a race to driving down that perceived value toward zero. Knocking the value of any product down 25% is not something to be embraced lightly. Look how hard Apple works to be sure a company like Amazon or Best Buy can't drive down prices of Apple hardware. Why don't they- as OWNERS of those products- take the hit so that Best Buy and Amazon can be enriched by being able to undercut the pricing of Apple products below established competitors?

As perceived value falls, a mentality of commoditization grows. Is access to almost any song available NOT worth at least $10/month? Is it only worth $8/month? If I'm the caretaker of such products, I'm not thrilled at either rate, as I would want the public to value music at much greater than $10/month. I'd definitely be in no hurry to embrace knocking 25% of the value out just to help another very rich company become richer.
 
The problem is that it Spotify isn't charging enough to actually (A) pay the artists and (B) keep themselves in business. Sure take advantage of it. That price is great. But recognize that this is kind of part Ponzi scheme and part just ripping off the artists. It is still losing money and this with the fact that it's highest "paid" employees are working for far less cash salary because they are hoping (quite reasonably so) for IPO riches. If it ever paid the artists a decent amount or had to pay its employees in actual cash, it would lose even more money.


Either I pay $4.99 and the artists get whatever the contractual agreement entails or they charge $9.99 and I don't pay. I do purchase my music. But let's put that aside since I'm not trying to justify that. As I touched on in my OP, I'm not paying $10, $15, $20 a month to rent music. Some people will, and that's fine. Not only do I like my own library of music, I don't have unlimited data. And while many people do, I think it's safe to say that more people have a limited data plan than those who have unlimited. This is a very broad statement but artists make their money one way or another. I listen to all types of music but I know that, at least in the electronic scene, many artists give a lot of their music away for free because they make up for it touring festivals and such.
 
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The problem is, in a few years, when you're a busy man and don't have much time to listen to music, you may regret not buying the music you like.
I spend a significant amount of money on music, trust me.
 

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Of course Apple can do what it wants. But it is all related. So yes Apple doesn't want to give away service for free and the Industry players were not willing to take less money on a per customer basis. Sure Apple could charge $7.99 and give the Industry guys $7.00. Heck, Apple could give the Industry guys $50 per customer if Apple wanted to have a huge loss on the deal. Industry can't dictate but they can decide if their songs are available or not. But for that they don't care what Apple charges the consumers. They just care what they get paid.

Apple was looking for Industry to give up per customer dollars in return (Apple would argue) for many many more customers than the other music services will ever convert to paying customers.
Thanks, thats what i figured, just wanted to make sure.
 
Either I pay $4.99 and the artists get whatever the contractual agreement entails or they charge $9.99 and I don't pay. I do purchase my music. But let's put that aside since I'm not trying to justify that. As I touched on in my OP, I'm not paying $10, $15, $20 a month to rent music. Some people will, and that's fine. Not only do I like my own library of music, I don't have unlimited data. And while many people do, I think it's safe to say that more people have a limited data plan than those who have unlimited. This is a very broad statement but artists make their money one way or another. I listen to all types of music but I know that, at least in the electronic scene, many artists give a lot of their music away for free because they make up for it touring festivals and such.

I have to agree 100% I use to pay for a streaming service. I found that I wasn't constantly looking for and discovering new music. I know what I like, there are millions of songs I had access to with the service, how much of that did I listen to? Right now I have over 50 gb of music in my library. I think that is a significant amount,roughly 8000 songs. I found that the longer I was a streaming customer the less value I got in return. After two years, I had pretty much established what my library was, then every so often I would listen to something I didn't already have. Every time I paid that $10 I thought,that 7-15 more songs, depending if I bought whole album or a la carte songs that I could have had and would always have....forever. Able to put on cd or flash card or hard drive or mp3 player,or Iphone. Streaming.....for me.....especially the longer you pay,just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe its a generational thing.
 
If you take a step back and look at your comparisons there is only one choice that makes sense.. streaming.

I don't think the majority of people care about owning music anymore.

I just buy music. Many times directly from the artist. No worries or drama about what "service" I need to have or keep paying for. It's mine - forever.
 
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Naysayers can rag all they want to. Apple is feeling the absence of Steve Jobs. Steve was very talented at putting favorable deals together, and his absence is noted. Steve Jobs was very good at getting his way, and Apple isn't quite as magical as it was at one time. Whatever magic is left was Steve Jobs inspired or produced.

I have a friend who works for Apple who very much said what you're saying. After Steve Jobs passed away, I asked him what his thoughts were on how the company would be affected in the future. He said that he thought the raw innovative talent was still pretty much intact, but that the one area that Apple would have difficulty with was negotiating deals. He felt that Tim lacks the charisma that Steve had, especially when it comes to negotiating things like content deals.

My own sense is that Tim is an excellent day-to-day manager but has to rely on others (Jony Ive for example) for the vision and innovation. That's not to say Tim isn't innovative, he has brought in some really great social innovation for Apple (renewable energy, materials sourcing, civil liberties, etc), but he's not particularly good at the product/technology innovation. At least, not to the level that Steve was.
 
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I just buy music. Many times directly from the artist. No worries or drama about what "service" I need to have or keep paying for. It's mine - forever.

Not according to the DMCA (or at least the most recent interpretations of it). The current interpretation of the DMCA is that all of that digital content you "own," regardless of what media you purchase it on, belongs to the artist (read: production company). You merely own the media that it was "printed" on, they own the content that is "printed."
 
I have to agree 100% I use to pay for a streaming service. I found that I wasn't constantly looking for and discovering new music. I know what I like, there are millions of songs I had access to with the service, how much of that did I listen to? Right now I have over 50 gb of music in my library. I think that is a significant amount,roughly 8000 songs. I found that the longer I was a streaming customer the less value I got in return. After two years, I had pretty much established what my library was, then every so often I would listen to something I didn't already have. Every time I paid that $10 I thought,that 7-15 more songs, depending if I bought whole album or a la carte songs that I could have had and would always have....forever. Able to put on cd or flash card or hard drive or mp3 player,or Iphone. Streaming.....for me.....especially the longer you pay,just doesn't seem worth it. Maybe its a generational thing.

Good post. And no, not generational, it's the almost eternal debate of rent vs. own. Ask any home renter or car lease about the question. While some can make a passionate case about the merits of renting/leasing, others can make similarly passionate cases against it. We're trying to sell a home right now. Some of our prospective buyers keep using the phrase, "I'm so tired of renting" often accompanied with "...tired of paying someone else's mortgage payment."

Renting works best when it's the only option. It works well in narrow, specific circumstances. It will wane though as one looks back on it against what they could have purchased with the money. It can become aggravating when one increasingly realizes that when they stop paying, they lose access to their(?) collection.

Music is relatively dirt cheap. Building up a collection of favorites is easier than ever before. Used sources of CDs sell the exact same quality of music as one can find on brand new copies of those same CDs. Get your collection up to even 1000 favorite songs and shuffle can fill your music-listening time with songs you want to hear. If you own them, you don't get your credit card dinged for $10 every month. 10 CDs given as a gift each Christmas over even 5 years adds about 500 songs for free to your collection. There are "free music" promotions running from all kinds of (legal) sources if you just look around. A few iTunes gift cards given as a gift lets you fill in the gaps. Getting to 1000 songs you like for as little as free is quite easy.

But... but... but what about NEW music discovery. That seems to be the biggest argument for streaming over the marketing spin of "it's the future". How did we discover new music before streaming services? Pretty much all those options still exist and still work well. And most of them cost nothing or cost nothing in new monthly fees.

Personally, I think "streaming is the future" because digital is killing the cyclical drive to buy the same music over and over. Once you own digital copies, they will sound as good 10 years from now as they sound now. Generationally, when Junior flies the coop, he might take copies of favorites from Mommy & Daddy's collection with him. That used to create a situation where Junior of his parents would have to buy anew. Now, it's just identical copies. Being able to resell the classics over and over is likely under great pressure, so the marketers are spinning streaming as "the future" as merely another way to monetize it.

As the press to rebuy (over and over) the classic music already in the can winds down, the need for more, brand new GREAT music spikes up. But rather than spend the money to try to bring every great new song to the masses, it's much cheaper to try to spin the concept that renting access to the classic library is "the future" and hoping we swallow what is being served. Spinning this as a gateway to new music is only pretending to ignore free radio, free music streaming sources, the whole music video distribution channel, every kind of television-based discovery method, our social media channels, interactions with friends & family, etc.
 
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Thanks for the condescending (lack of) concern for my emotional well being!!
Lol. Don't worry about me... I have a pleasant life & don't let most things bother me.
However, luckily... I'm not a COMPLETELY unfeeling machine. I can indeed, have strong feelings about things that matter to me. Social injustice, for example. The powerful preying on the powerless... these types of things.
To me: this type of anger is justified... righteous indignation, I believe they call it.

Social injustice? Please. Righteous indignation LOL

The powerful preying on the powerless. Kinda like Apple pushes companies around?

enjoy your righteous indignation.
 
Not according to the DMCA (or at least the most recent interpretations of it). The current interpretation of the DMCA is that all of that digital content you "own," regardless of what media you purchase it on, belongs to the artist (read: production company). You merely own the media that it was "printed" on, they own the content that is "printed."

I don't think there has ever been a situation where an artist came to pick up his content when he was of the opinion any consumer was not entitled to own it anymore. In addition, there is no registration system in place to track who has bought what, so by all intents and purposes a piece of media with content that is bought will remain in your possession forever.
 
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Social injustice? Please. Righteous indignation LOL

The powerful preying on the powerless. Kinda like Apple pushes companies around?

enjoy your righteous indignation.

Lol. For someone suggesting other people calm down & breathe, you sure seem miserable and bitter!!!!
And even if I accept your supposition that Apple bullies other companies (for the record... I do NOT), wouldn't that make BOTH Apple & music labels jerks??
Lol, how in your head does one justify the other?? You're acting like, if Apple pushes around other companies... then I have no right to find record labels deplorable. Huh?? I don't get the connection.
 
Lol. For someone suggesting other people calm down & breathe, you sure seem miserable and bitter!!!!
And even if I accept your supposition that Apple bullies other companies (for the record... I do NOT), wouldn't that make BOTH Apple & music labels jerks??
Lol, how in your head does one justify the other?? You're acting like, if Apple pushes around other companies... then I have no right to find record labels deplorable. Huh?? I don't get the connection.

I sound miserable? Im not the one posting how you are suffering from indignation. Maybe you mean indigestion
 
Not according to the DMCA (or at least the most recent interpretations of it). The current interpretation of the DMCA is that all of that digital content you "own," regardless of what media you purchase it on, belongs to the artist (read: production company). You merely own the media that it was "printed" on, they own the content that is "printed."

That's nothing new, it's just basic copyright law. You never owned the song, the movie, the story, the game, etc.,. You owned the medium and were granted a limited use license to enjoy that content in a private setting (i.e. you can watch your copy of Jurassic Park at home but you can't play it for the public and charge $2 for tickets).

File-based media complicates matters because it is so easy to copy and distribute which leads to DRM which leads to the DMCA which, among other things, makes it illegal to break, circumvent, etc., DRM. It also adds a wrinkle to the first sale doctrine. The first sale doctrine means that after I buy a book, for example, I'm free to sell or give away that book to a third party. The copyright owner can't interfere and can't take a cut of what I sell it for. With file based media though it's difficult, if not impossible, to guarantee that I won't keep a digital copy for myself enough though I've sold a digital copy to someone else. For now, at least, in the US consumers have fewer rights when they purchase file based media as opposed to physical media.

Basically, the convenience of file based media comes at a cost.



But... but... but what about NEW music discovery. That seems to be the biggest argument for streaming over the marketing spin of "it's the future". How did we discover new music before streaming services? Pretty much all those options still exist and still work well. And most of them cost nothing or cost nothing in new monthly fees.

Still work as well, which means they still kinda suck. ;) Being able to tailor my own stations on Pandora or Spotify makes discovering new music that I might actually like w-a-y easier than the radio or even digging through YouTube. Radio, at least in Los Angeles, basically breaks down into one of the following categories. Trendy Contemporary Tracks, Trendy Tracks from the 00's, Trendy Tracks from the 90's, Trendy Tracks from the 80's, Trendy Tracks from the 60's/70's... Sirus isn't much better. I can't find a deep cut or a new/lesser known artist to save my life. It's all the same songs from the same bands.
 
Still work as well, which means they still kinda suck. ;) Being able to tailor my own stations on Pandora or Spotify makes discovering new music that I might actually like w-a-y easier than the radio or even digging through YouTube. Radio, at least in Los Angeles, basically breaks down into one of the following categories. Trendy Contemporary Tracks, Trendy Tracks from the 00's, Trendy Tracks from the 90's, Trendy Tracks from the 80's, Trendy Tracks from the 60's/70's... Sirus isn't much better. I can't find a deep cut or a new/lesser known artist to save my life. It's all the same songs from the same bands.

Personally, I find proactively hunting for new music tedious: plowing through a bunch of rejects for an occasional yes. What seems to work better for me is reactive hunting, meaning I hear something on a commercial or in a show or movie, one of my friends or family suggests (or is playing) something (when I'm around), or I pick up a used copy of Now that What I call Music Volume XX and find a few goodies there.

I've built up a fair collection of owned music over the years. I've made multi-hundred song playlists of these faves and often fill my music-listening time by just shuffling those songs. I'd love to find lots of great new music on par with some of that but it's hard to find great new music IMO. Much of the new seems no so great IMO... not worthy of allocating a few MB on a hard drive to retain them. I don't see how this service or Spotify or Pandora will solve that problem, as I don't want to just put any of them on and listen through the bad for something good.

An interesting divergence of views might be observed here. Over in some other threads, "we" are whining to get rid of 185 channels "I never watch" because "I only want to pay for what I do like." We have all kinds of rationale why we don't want junk pushed upon us and we certainly don't want to pay for that junk. Then, over here in streaming music threads, we are dying for streaming radio so that we can have undiscovered music pushed upon us and we do want to pay for it. Since I know not all of that will be great, I find it interesting how the same pool of people can have such differing views of almost the same thing.

I haven't found a source of streaming or otherwise that only push great new music to me. Instead, it's a bunch of junk (IMO) to find an occasional good one... much like those 185 TV channels can be a bunch of junk but occasionally have something I might want to watch. Conceptually, a "top 40" channel is supposed to have the best new 40 songs available. I hardly ever hear one in such streams that I consider a "keeper." If my general tastes like that are representative of many, I don't think streaming "is the future" in terms of solving a problem of music sales or ongoing monetization of music. Instead, I think the answer is the harder solution of finding the next Beatles, Stones, Zep, et all and bringing them to market... lots of them if lots of them are out there waiting to be discovered, packaged and marketed.
 
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Given the lack of music deal, absence of new Apple TV hardware, and google photos stealing their thunder, this keynote's looking a little like:

- wow, we made a lot of money
- here's what's new with OS X... oh wait, we thought we'd just focus on fixing the existing screw ups.
- Here's what's new with iOS... that thing about fixing screw ups? Yeah, we'll do that there too.
- Dammit, we're PRIVATE! We'll bill the snot out of y'all, but we won't sell your data to anyone! Really! That's why we're great!
- Uh... here's Cold Play.
- Bye... go program something.

What's wrong with Coldplay?!
 
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