Apple Store in Maryland Makes History by Voting to Unionize

[icanhazmac]

I still don't understand how this is a bad thing? They quite literary negotiated a great deal as workers in a union. Because their union are competent.

I'm confused, is this supposed to be a bad thing? Can you point out what exactly is wrong with this?

The same types of people that are mad about CEO salaries are suddenly in support of a lifeguard making $400k/yr?

As a tax payer you should be incensed by this obvious over compensation. I'm all for fair wages but this is obvious exploitation by unions and complete incompetence by Los Angeles.

Again, no wonder California is the ****-hole it is and no wonder they are bleeding population. If it is a great place to live and all those taxes are just why are all the libs leaving? Blue states and cities are mired in unsustainable contracts with union employees that politicians ok because they know they will be long gone when the bill comes due.

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

This is a bit different from corporations killing people "on demand".

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It is believed that one of the big banana corporations literally did have people killed in a south American country. Costa Rico as I remember. I think Shell was also accused at one time of having activists killed. Then there was Silkwood, PG&E with Erin Brockovitch, and on and on... Ford and the side saddle gas tanks, the Pinto, etc...

 

[Adamantoise]

The same types of people that are mad about CEO salaries are suddenly in support of a lifeguard making $400k/yr?

As a tax payer you should be incensed by this obvious over compensation. I'm all for fair wages but this is obvious exploitation by unions and complete incompetence by Los Angeles.

Again, no wonder California is the ****-hole it is and no wonder they are bleeding population. If it is a great place to live and all those taxes are just why are all the libs leaving? Blue states and cities are mired in unsustainable contracts with union employees that politicians ok because they know they will be long gone when the bill comes due.

Why do you assume that I'm against CEO's making what they make again? Care to point out where I stated that?

You cannot be for the free market of labor and then suddenly get upset when people want to discuss their wages and bargain collectively.

By busting unions and preventing employees from discussing wages, you're interfering with the free market.

Think of it this way... Imagine residents of California were not allowed to know what residents of New York paid for gas. Now imagine if this was true for every state... How can you be sure that the market price of gas isn't being tampered with?

CEO pay is a red herring, cutting down the pay of one employee isn't going to fix the problem of low pay for the others, and only naive people believe otherwise.

If you want to fix low pay, the only way to do that is free market of labor.

 

[icanhazmac]

Why do you assume that I'm against CEO's making what they make again? Care to point out where I stated that?

That is why I worded it that way, as not to call out any one member/poster but many here seem to support the lifeguard receiving what is IMHO gross over-compensation but then also state that CEOs and executives are grossly overpaid.

By busting unions and preventing employees from discussing wages, you're interfering with the free market.

I never advocated "busting" anyone, care to point out where I said that? Just because I don't like unions or find them necessary / beneficial in 2022 doesn't mean I advocate "busting". Do what you want as far as joining a union but I doubt these Apple retail employees will be happy with the outcome.

I also never stated that employees should be prevented from discussing wage I have only ever said I don't do it and very few people I have ever worked with did, it is considered inappropriate and I will stand by that, no one else needs to know what I negotiated for myself. I have never asked a coworker what they make and IIRC I have only been asked once about my compensation. Data on compensation is readily available from many sources. As an example, I current work in a team of 6, we all know what the base rate or range is but no one knows what anyone else on the team might have negotiated at hiring or in performance reviews. We all have different experience levels, education levels and performance levels, why should we individually settle for an average negotiated for us by a union? Why should the most senior person get all the perks when the newest hire might have more education, experience and skill?

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

If you want to fix low pay, the only way to do that is free market of labor.

BS!!! That is the insane argument that got corporate America to ship jobs wholesale to China, Korea, Vietnam, Mexico, etc...

'Oh, wages have to be 'competitive' with the world'. NO THEY DON'T! China doesn't have the infrastructure we have here. There are so many reasons why moving jobs was a disaster, but the main two arguments for it are 1) Larger profits for investors, and 2) Killing unions. Which has led to more people unemployed, and under employed, and has decimated worker representation and power to demand respect, fair wages, protections... (And, since unions largely supported the democratic party, it helped punish them) The wholesale move to China was accelerated by Walmart's demands that their vendors do it to keep their agreements for Walmart to stock their goods. Articles have said that Walmart had a division that HELPED their suppliers shift manufacturing to China and elsewhere. Because it's all about profit profit profit. Quality didn't go up (if anyhting it became more deadly), prices didn't go down, but the 'cost of goods sold' plummeted. Practically no labor regulations, environmental regulations, and they make HUGE profits? Done and done...

 

[Adamantoise]

BS!!! That is the insane argument that got corporate America to ship jobs wholesale to China, Korea, Vietnam, Mexico, etc...

'Oh, wages have to be 'competitive' with the world'. NO THEY DON'T! China doesn't have the infrastructure we have here. There are so many reasons why moving jobs was a disaster, but the main two arguments for it are 1) Larger profits for investors, and 2) Killing unions. Which has led to more people unemployed, and under employed, and has decimated worker representation and power to demand respect, fair wages, protections... (And, since unions largely supported the democratic party, it helped punish them) The wholesale move to China was accelerated by Walmart's demands that their vendors do it to keep their agreements for Walmart to stock their goods. Articles have said that Walmart had a division that HELPED their suppliers shift manufacturing to China and elsewhere. Because it's all about profit profit profit. Quality didn't go up (if anyhting it became more deadly), prices didn't go down, but the 'cost of goods sold' plummeted. Practically no labor regulations, environmental regulations, and they make HUGE profits? Done and done...

Companies ship jobs overseas because it's cheaper to do so. If you take anything away from this post, let it be this.

As long as we have labor laws and safety regulations in the USA, cost of labor in the USA will always be greater than that of places that don't have those protections.

That's really all there is to it.

What then is the solution? Should we do away with labor laws and safety regulations? Labor is cheaper in China, Vietnam, Mexico etc. because workers there can be exploited. There is no OSHA, no child labor laws, no worker protections, no benefits.

Is that what you want for Americans?

 

[maxoakland]

Don't care if he's the General, $400/k a year?!?!

You failed to address this part:

Seven lifeguards in Los Angeles made more than $300,000 a year including benefits, and 82 made more than $200,000, government watchdog group OpenTheBooks found.

The top-paid lifeguard made $392,000 in compensation in 2020, and 31 lifeguards made between $50,000 and $131,000 in just overtime.

Lifeguards can retire at age 55 and get 79% of their pay for life.

Again, no wonder California is the complete mess that it is.

Do you have a problem with executive pay being more than 640x what an average work makes in a year?

 

[vipergts2207]

The same types of people that are mad about CEO salaries are suddenly in support of a lifeguard making $400k/yr?

As a tax payer you should be incensed by this obvious over compensation. I'm all for fair wages but this is obvious exploitation by unions and complete incompetence by Los Angeles.

Again, no wonder California is the ****-hole it is and no wonder they are bleeding population. If it is a great place to live and all those taxes are just why are all the libs leaving? Blue states and cities are mired in unsustainable contracts with union employees that politicians ok because they know they will be long gone when the bill comes due.

As a tax payer are you incensed with the CEOs of Walmart and other businesses that pay such poverty wages that some of their employees qualify for food stamps and other government programs paid for with tax payer dollars, or is your outrage reserved only for life guards and other positions of similar stature?

 

[A Hobo]

Apple should automate the whole store. It’s time for apple to revisit their retail business model and make some needed strategic upgrades and changes.

Yeah so people like you can line up outside to complain that there’s nobody here to help you 😂😂

 

[PinkyMacGodess]

Companies ship jobs overseas because it's cheaper to do so. If you take anything away from this post, let it be this.

As long as we have labor laws and safety regulations in the USA, cost of labor in the USA will always be greater than that of places that don't have those protections.

That's really all there is to it.

What then is the solution? Should we do away with labor laws and safety regulations? Labor is cheaper in China, Vietnam, Mexico etc. because workers there can be exploited. There is no OSHA, no child labor laws, no worker protections, no benefits.

Is that what you want for Americans?

I saw a box of nails, Made In China. How are nails made? Someone feeds wire into the machine, and it spits nails out at the other end until it needs more wire. Doing it In China makes no sense. An average American can be trained to feed wire into a nail making machine. I'd bet someone could train a chimpanzee to do it. But it's 'cheaper' to do it in China? It's cheaper to ship American meat to China to have it butchered, and shipped back here? Really? If people knew the amount of penetration of the Made In China scam was, they would be horrified, I'd think...

Love Rod Serling, love this meme...

 

[Adamantoise]

I saw a box of nails, Made In China. How are nails made? Someone feeds wire into the machine, and it spits nails out at the other end until it needs more wire. Doing it In China makes no sense. An average American can be trained to feed wire into a nail making machine. I'd bet someone could train a chimpanzee to do it. But it's 'cheaper' to do it in China? It's cheaper to ship American meat to China to have it butchered, and shipped back here? Really? If people knew the amount of penetration of the Made In China scam was, they would be horrified, I'd think...

Love Rod Serling, love this meme...

View attachment 2022008

Yes, it's cheaper to pay someone in China to do that because of the reasons outlined in the very post you quoted.

You can come up with as many anecdotes and cute stories as you want, none of that will change the root cause of the issue.

Globalization is the reason your iPhone doesn't cost $2500, it's also the reason so many Americans struggle to find work.

If you want things to be better for your fellow Americans, you should be in favor of collective bargaining (this means unions) and should be against unchecked globalization.

You can cry about it all you want, but this is the free market in action. When the labor market is the global stage, Americans simply lose out on jobs.

You also never answered my original question....

What then is the solution? Should we do away with labor laws and safety regulations? Labor is cheaper in China, Vietnam, Mexico etc. because workers there can be exploited. There is no OSHA, no child labor laws, no worker protections, no benefits.

Is that what you want for Americans?

 

[icanhazmac]

If you want things to be better for your fellow Americans, you should be in favor of collective bargaining (this means unions) and should be against unchecked globalization.

Ok, I'll play, how exactly will unions artificially driving up US worker wages to the point that corporations are forced to ship those jobs overseas or automate them? Are we going to favor import or trade tariffs to balance wages out? Should we become isolationists? If our manufacturing wages are too high no one will buy our stuff, simple math.

Asking for the US steel industry, oh wait, it doesn't exist anymore... why? Unions.

 

[icanhazmac]

As a tax payer are you incensed with the CEOs of Walmart and other businesses that pay such poverty wages that some of their employees qualify for food stamps and other government programs paid for with tax payer dollars

No I'm not.

Not all jobs, not all positions are meant to support a household, why is this not common sense? If you are a Walmart checkout clerk or burger flipper at McDonalds you are not going to make a "living wage", those jobs were never supposed to be the "bread winner" for a household.

If that is all you can do well then you will probably need two jobs if you are a single person. If you are a single head of household then there are assistance programs for just this purpose. Maybe you should have made better choices in life?

Only need to look back to the 60s and 70s, 1 parent had what would loosely be considered a "real job" and one parent worked for a little side cash... guess what those parents did? Retail, waitressing, etc.

If Walmart sucks so hard my local convenience store is hiring at $15/hr with a signing bonus, problem solved.

 

[vipergts2207]

No I'm not.

Not all jobs, not all positions are meant to support a household, why is this not common sense? If you are a Walmart checkout clerk or burger flipper at McDonalds you are not going to make a "living wage", those jobs were never supposed to be the "bread winner" for a household.

If that is all you can do well then you will probably need two jobs if you are a single person. If you are a single head of household then there are assistance programs for just this purpose. Maybe you should have made better choices in life?

Only need to look back to the 60s and 70s, 1 parent had what would loosely be considered a "real job" and one parent worked for a little side cash... guess what those parents did? Retail, waitressing, etc.

If Walmart sucks so hard my local convenience store is hiring at $15/hr with a signing bonus, problem solved.

At least you admit to having a double standard favoring the ultra-wealthy.

 

[icanhazmac]

At least you admit to having a double standard favoring the ultra-wealthy.

Never said those words, do you have anything to offer besides "whataboutulisms" or putting words in people's mouths they never said?

Not once have I typed that I support obscene CEO compensation, not once. I simply don't believe that unions in 2022 will accomplish anything other than to drive more jobs into extinction.

2 problems can exist at once, obscene CEO pay and unions fighting to over-compensate menial jobs.

 

[vipergts2207]

Never said those words, do you have anything to offer besides "whataboutulisms" or putting words in people's mouths they never said?

Not once have I typed that I support obscene CEO compensation, not once. I simply don't believe that unions in 2022 will accomplish anything other than to drive more jobs into extinction.

2 problems can exist at once, obscene CEO pay and unions fighting to over-compensate menial jobs.

I asked point blank if you had a problem with the CEOs of these companies while tax payers subsidize the wages of the companies they run and you said no.

 

[icanhazmac]

I asked point blank if you had a problem with the CEOs of these companies while tax payers subsidize the wages of the companies they run and you said no.

As a tax payer are you incensed with the CEOs of Walmart and other businesses that pay such poverty wages that some of their employees qualify for food stamps and other government programs paid for with tax payer dollars

No, you asked the above. I said no, I am not incensed with the CEOs for offering poverty wages because I don't believe they do. I believe, for the most part, that wages for retail positions and the like are commensurate with the skill needed to perform those jobs. Some jobs were never meant to be able to sustain a household.

 

[vipergts2207]

No, you asked the above. I said no, I am not incensed with the CEOs for offering poverty wages because I don't believe they do. I believe, for the most part, that wages for retail positions and the like are commensurate with the skill needed to perform those jobs. Some jobs were never meant to be able to sustain a household.

So in that case you don’t care if tax payers subsidize the poor wages? You can’t have it both ways. It’s quite hilarious to see you astroturf for tax payers when these CEOs are making 100-200 times as much as these life guards, yet the latter is who you’re pointing to. Perhaps we need a special tax for CEOs and other highly compensated executives that recoups every penny spent by tax payers on subsidizing the employees of their companies.

 

[icanhazmac]

So in that case you don’t care if tax payers subsidize the poor wages?

Yes I do care. I don't think we should be subsidizing as much as we do.

 

[vipergts2207]

Yes I do care. I don't think we should be subsidizing as much as we do.

So which way do you want it then? Have the companies paying these poor wages increase the pay or continue to have tax payers foot the bill?

 

[pastrychef]

So in that case you don’t care if tax payers subsidize the poor wages? You can’t have it both ways. It’s quite hilarious to see you astroturf for tax payers when these CEOs are making 100-200 times as much as these life guards, yet the latter is who you’re pointing to. Perhaps we need a special tax for CEOs and other highly compensated executives that recoups every penny spent by tax payers on subsidizing the employees of their companies.

There are minimum wage laws... If no laws are broken, no one can be blamed.

Do any of those employees choose to work just enough hours to stay within certain income tax brackets? If they deliberately stay within the lowest bracket, they avoid paying federal income tax and qualify for food stamps and they get to have more free time for themselves, as well as Obamacare.

 

[Adamantoise]

There are minimum wage laws... If no laws are broken, no one can be blamed.

Do any of those employees choose to work just enough hours to stay within certain income tax brackets? If they deliberately stay within the lowest bracket, they avoid paying federal income tax and qualify for food stamps and they get to have more free time for themselves, as well as Obamacare.

That's a lot of words to say "I don't know how income tax works"

 

[pastrychef]

That's a lot of words to say "I don't know how income tax works"

I explained it right there...

Let me try to make it simpler for you...

Work enough to earn $10275 and take your standard deductions. You will pay no federal income taxes. You will also qualify for all sorts of entitlements like Obamacare and Food Stamps.

Was that easy enough?

Source:https://taxfoundation.org/2022-tax-brackets/

 

[icanhazmac]

So which way do you want it then? Have the companies paying these poor wages increase the pay or continue to have tax payers foot the bill?

Neither.

I think most companies, especially in this market are paying fair wages for these entry level positions that are not, and have never been meant to support households. They are first jobs for teens, second jobs for those that need extra money. If you cannot get a better job then get 2, work one of these full time and another part time.

Example: New Jersey still has this stupid law on the books that requires gas to be pumped for you.... do you believe that these people deserve $20/hr for that work? A so called "living wage"?

 

[Adamantoise]

Ok, I'll play, how exactly will unions artificially driving up US worker wages to the point that corporations are forced to ship those jobs overseas or automate them? Are we going to favor import or trade tariffs to balance wages out? Should we become isolationists? If our manufacturing wages are too high no one will buy our stuff, simple math.

Asking for the US steel industry, oh wait, it doesn't exist anymore... why? Unions.

How are unions artificially driving up US worker wages?

If foreign labor had the protections of the American worker, foreign labor wouldn't be cheap either.

American corporations exploit foreign labor because foreign governments allow it. Why do you think we export labor to China and not Germany?

I'm going to keep repeating this question... because seems a lot of you don't actually have any solutions beyond "Unions bad"

What then is the solution? Should we do away with labor laws and safety regulations? Labor is cheaper in China, Vietnam, Mexico etc. because workers there can be exploited. There is no OSHA, no child labor laws, no worker protections, no benefits.

Is that what you want for Americans?

Unions are the reason we got things like OSHA and labor laws...