Apple Stores Will Continue to Require Masks for Now

[germinator]

First, Apple (and anyone) should follow science. The CDC guidelines are supported by science. It is evident that vaccinated persons to not need to follow the same precautions.

Second, no one can compel people to get vaccinated. So there will be no way for any store/business to check the vaccination status. This means that once these guidelines go into effect, anybody will be able to walk into the store without a mask.

Third, this means that potentially unvaccinated people may get infected. I am OK with that. If the vaccine is widely available, I have no sympathy for the anti-vaxxers. I feel that I don't have to take the burden of wearing a mask to protect the idiots. (I am aware that there is a small chance that innocent people will get infected: kids and immuno-deficient people. I think for kids, the chance of getting Covid is really low. I would be comfortable taking my kids own kids into stores without mask mandate. If you are one of the small minority of immuno-deficient people, you know who you are and you should not get out in public).

Fourth, it is not the responsibility of the store to take care of Covid. The businesses should follow scientific and rational principles. If the employees want to wear a mask, let them wear one.

Fifth, the Covid restrictions imposed a terrible toll on many activities and had a huge economic impact. It makes sense to remove the restrictions once we are out of the emergency even at the cost of a small number of additional cases.

The way I see it, the CDC guideline couldn't have come early enough. If anything, it is a little too vague. I wish they had gone into more details.

 

[btrach144]

Well it's quite obvious: what the hell was the point of getting vaccinated if we still have to wear masks? And thankfully the CDC recognized this. It was really undermining the vaccine. If you’re uncomfortable going into public places without a mask then wear a mask. Or two.

The point of getting the vaccine wasn't to stop wearing a mask. The point of getting the vaccine was to avoid serious illness or death and overburdening our hospitals (just look at India).

 

[Isengardtom]

The alternative is to ask for a vaccination passport at the door. A lot more people would have a problem with that.

People should just wear the mask and try to spend a little less energy complaining about everything.

 

[trifid]

The alternative is to ask for a vaccination passport at the door. A lot more people would have a problem with that.

People should just wear the mask and try to spend a little less energy complaining about everything.

Yea exactly, CDC guidance falls short of an actual convincing implementation because of this. The ideal scenario is vaccine passport, but that'll be fought by people as well. The easiest less controversial implementation is to keep requiring masks for everyone for now.

To be clear it's not just Apple, most stores seem to be following the same protocol, Home Depot, Starbucks, Target, Walgreens etc

 

[supercoolmanchu]

Well, remember that with global warming, we started to revere the meteorologist as nearly a deity unto his or her own greatness and all-knowingness. This is why people believe global warming claims from a group that can't even tell me if it's going to rain this afternoon.

Well I was referencing consulting a meteorologist “if” you hear thunder rather an priest. The meteorologist can probably tell if it’s raining, but yes, the profession clearly lacks any reliable prophetic abilities. But they have instruments to measure the atmosphere in real time, where priests do not.

Likewise looking to medical professionals for microbiotic matters that they both lack any expertise in, nor in their professional lives even encounter the tools required for their study… which are also highly experimental and largely theoretical for the actual experts of that discipline… is equally as stupid as consulting a priest for thunder, or as you put it a meteorologist for climate predictions.

And that is an interesting parallel you bring up. Global warming advocates completely bypassed the actual experts in taking ground temperatures, geologists. The fact that geologists are largely not on board with global warming theory, is not scientifically insignificant. Entirely new disciplines have been “ordained” to side step that fundamentally critical detail and run with shoddy conclusions that ignored actual real science.

If you screw up setting a baseline for ground temperatures, every climate theory and model built on top of that mistake can be thrown directly into the trash, or indiscriminately into the equally misguided and useless recycling bin.

Further climate models assume zero as a baseline for ground temperatures, which is fundamentally stupid considering the earth’s core is the second most significant heat source in our environment, and clearly not zero and clearly not a uniform value across the entire planet. To even get any reliable expertise about ground temperatures anywhere, probably going to want a geologist.

These are all distinctions lost on the superstitious who have closed their minds in fear of invented or imagined demons. In order to achieve any science in either global warming or viral research, some honesty (and a healthy dose of hubris regarding actual scientific capability) needs to be addressed. “Believers” need not apply.

omg, thats hilrious and I don't know why!

Mormons wear their magic garments underneath clothing, the covidorks wear their magic clothing on their faces. Superstitious skid marks betray the imagined divinity of both.

 

[aidler]

No, I understood just fine... the quote was "But you can (and it HAS been shown in multiple instances) still pass it along to other people."

No, you can't pass it along to other people. It has been shown in literally zero instances. Literally. The word literal being applied in its true form. You can't transmit the infection unless you HAVE the infection, actively. As I, you were immunocompromised and the antibodies failed and the virus evaded them. If your body has lopped off all its legs and is in the process of killing it, it isn't being transmitted. Dr Walensky at the CDC said as much, though the following day other researches said she spoke too broadly and that they're "still researching" the claim. But all evidence available says it's impossible. It's been 2 months since then... and now guidance is that vaccinated people are able to resume lives as normal......... because they can't find evidence of vaccinated individuals transmitting it...................

I hope you are right. I don't want the fact on my conscience that my negligence maybe has infected and killed other people.

 

[aidler]

Too much text...
tldr "I have no idea what I'm talking about"

So much text and still the wrong conclusion. Sad...

 

[bollman]

Prepare yourself for wearing masks forever. The mask has become an important symbol and thus, will not go away that easily.
And, since so many people will continue wearing masks even if it's not mandated, I predict FaceID is going away.

 

[Analog Kid]

It has been shown in absolutely ZERO instances that you can pass it to others.

Can you link to support that statement? I've seen "less likely", and "reduces viral load" and "growing evidence to conclude", but I've yet to see any definitive statement that it has never happened and find it really unlikely knowing that there are breakthrough cases which are likely also transmissible.

 

[hagar]

Third, this means that potentially unvaccinated people may get infected. I am OK with that. If the vaccine is widely available, I have no sympathy for the anti-vaxxers. I feel that I don't have to take the burden of wearing a mask to protect the idiots.

You wrongfully seem under the impression the vaccin protects you 100%. It’s not. It varies from anywhere between 60 and 95%. You also seem to ignore groups of people that can’t be vaccinated.

Well, remember that with global warming, we started to revere the meteorologist as nearly a deity unto his or her own greatness and all-knowingness. This is why people believe global warming claims from a group that can't even tell me if it's going to rain this afternoon.

I don’t know if it’s your intention but your wording seems to imply you don’t believe in climate change because you follow the wrong scientists. Which is a weird argument because weather and climate are very distinct with separate experts from different scientific fields.

I do hope that after 1,5 years of discussions about covid, we’re not going back to making drama about things like climate change. The time for discussions was 25 years ago. Now is the time to fix the issue.

 

[rjp1]

How exactly should Apple verify that you're fully vaccinated when you walk into the store?

How were they verifying your vaccination status previously for hepatitis B, diptheria, tetanus, whooping cough, flu, polio, rotavirus, pneumococcal, Hib, chickenpox, measles, mumps, rubella, hepatitis a, hpv, meningococcal, etc.?

 

[R10k]

 

[hans1972]

um. do you understand the science of risk assessment? Absolutely nothing to do with any of that. The argument is whether the government can require you to live risk-free. If so, they can order you to wear a mask forever, never drive or ride in an automobile, never go on a hike in a remote area, never go outside during a thunderstorm, etc. etc. Has nothing to do with training or licensing or insurance. lol.

The government can require you to wear seatbelts every time you are in a moving car for the rest of your life. So yes, there is many instances where the government restricts your liberty indefinitely.

If I had to sum of the history of the US, it would be that the federal government has had an enormous increase in power and that its citizens are much more regulated than at any other point in history.

The same is true for all other western countries also.

 

[hans1972]

Wearing a piece of cloth isn't the issue. Being FORCED to do so by an authoritarian government (or corporation) IS the issue. We need to separate the science of good health practices with the constitutional balance of individual liberties. You are free to implement whatever preventive measures you wish: wear a mask, wear a face shield, wash your hands regularly, stay home away from others, etc. But U.S. citizens are NOT guaranteed a life of ZERO risk...if they were, automobiles would be outlawed. If you go in public, you might get sick. That's life.

You seem to want to run a society based on principles. IMO it is a very bad way to run a society. What you need is a lot of pragmatism with just a small dose of principles.

Taking cars as an example. The government hasn't outlawed it, but they have created a large body of requirements and restrictions on how to build, sell, use, repair and drive a car. Some states even make it illegal to fill your car with gas yourself!

 

[anshuvorty]

Yes, but infants, at least, are often vaccinated against the worst diseases, including influenza, and currently aren't being vaccinated against covid yet.

Yeah, they aren't being vaccinated yet, because clinical trials haven't been done on infants yet. We don't know what the effect of these vaccines can do to an immature and undeveloped immune system.

 

[Analog Kid]

We'll see how this plays out, but this bit seems like a bit of a miscalculation on CDC's part:

In summary, relaxing certain prevention measures for fully vaccinated people may be a powerful motivator for vaccination, and thus should be an important goal of the U.S. vaccination program.

Problem is that the way their guidance is being interpreted is to relax prevention measures without proof of vaccination, which seems significantly less motivating...

 

[Analog Kid]

Yeah, they aren't being vaccinated yet, because clinical trials haven't been done on infants yet. We don't know what the effect of these vaccines can do to an immature and undeveloped immune system.

That's exactly what I said-- some groups aren't eligible for vaccination, young children being one such group. I'm not sure I get your point...

 

[hans1972]

There is absolutely no data to support this claim. Feel free to prove me otherwise but I have done a fair bit of research on it and all the data indicates that fully vaccinated people do not spread the virus to others.

If you are vaccinated you can still get Covid-19 and then you can transmit it to others.

From https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythingstoknow.html
"
What We Are Still Learning

• We are still learning how well vaccines prevent you from spreading the virus that causes COVID-19 to others, even if you do not have symptoms. Early data show that vaccines help keep people with no symptoms from spreading COVID-19.
• We are also still learning how long COVID-19 vaccines protect people.
• We are still learning how many people have to be vaccinated against COVID-19 before the population can be considered protected (population immunity).
• We are still learning how effective the vaccines are against new variants of the virus that causes COVID-19.

"

Zero probability is very hard to achieve. Let's say 300 million people in the US gets the vaccine (not very likely) and there are 10 cases among those vaccinated, it would still represent a probability of 0,0000333% of getting infected.

 

[anshuvorty]

That's exactly what I said-- some groups aren't eligible for vaccination, young children being one such group. I'm not sure I get your point...

My point was that the reason young children and infants aren't yet being given the vaccine is because clinical trials haven't been completed yet for this age demographic. We still don't know what the adverse effects (if any) are when they are given the vaccines.

Your post didn't mention the reason why this age demographic hasn't yet been given the "all clear" to receive the vaccine. I have provided the reason, hence my post, which explains why this age demographic isn't yet being vaccinated.

 

[hans1972]

No, I understood just fine... the quote was "But you can (and it HAS been shown in multiple instances) still pass it along to other people."

No, you can't pass it along to other people. It has been shown in literally zero instances. Literally. The word literal being applied in its true form. You can't transmit the infection unless you HAVE the infection, actively. As I, you were immunocompromised and the antibodies failed and the virus evaded them. If your body has lopped off all its legs and is in the process of killing it, it isn't being transmitted. Dr Walensky at the CDC said as much, though the following day other researches said she spoke too broadly and that they're "still researching" the claim. But all evidence available says it's impossible. It's been 2 months since then... and now guidance is that vaccinated people are able to resume lives as normal......... because they can't find evidence of vaccinated individuals transmitting it...................

You can't transmit the disease if you don't have it. A vaccine doesn't reduce the probability to zero for someone getting infected and thus having the potential to spread it.

“If Dr. Walensky had said most vaccinated people do not carry virus, we would not be having this discussion,” said John Moore, a virologist at Weill Cornell Medicine in New York.

“What we know is the vaccines are very substantially effective against infection — there’s more and more data on that — but nothing is 100 percent,” he added. “It is an important public health message that needs to be gotten right.”
NY Times-article

There is a huge difference between p=1 and p<1 for infections.

"However, a small percentage of people who are fully vaccinated will still get COVID-19 if they are exposed to the virus that causes it. These are called “vaccine breakthrough cases.” This means that while people who have been vaccinated are much less likely to get sick, it may still happen. Experts continue to study how common these cases are.
-CDC

 

[Analog Kid]

My point was that the reason young children and infants aren't yet being given the vaccine is because clinical trials haven't been completed yet for this age demographic. We still don't know what the adverse effects (if any) are when they are given the vaccines.

Your post didn't mention the reason why this age demographic hasn't yet been given the "all clear" to receive the vaccine. I have provided the reason, hence my post, which explains why this age demographic isn't yet being vaccinated.

Yes, that is correct. They aren't eligible to receive the vaccine because they don't have safety data for those groups.

That doesn't seem to be what you said though:

Infants and anyone who is immunocompromised will always be vulnerable to infectious diseases, COVID-19 notwithstanding.

 

[hans1972]

You point out a difficulty in identifying vaccinated people - okay. But we don’t punish everyone because some people might* break the rules. Sorry. It just doesn’t work like that.

Society do that all the time.

Gambling is illegal (most places) because some people can't handle it.
Restrictions on alcohol because some people can't seem to behave when they become intoxicated.
Restrictions on pornography because some people don't seem to think children can handle seeing it.
Screening at airports because just a few people wants to bring bombs and weapons onboard.
Establishments requiring and checking IDs of adults because young people seems to be lying about their age.

 

[shigzeo]

This upcoming Thursday I'll be fully vaccinated (will be 2 weeks after my second shot). Never really found mask wearing to be that difficult, especially if it had the chance of saving lives and not spreading Covid. What I did find interesting was the attention it brought - mostly of people laughing and being mad at me for wearing a mask. Even had a police officer (last year) "look at that idiot trying to exercise with a mask" (he said it loud enough to know I heard). lol Whatever.

Was surprised how quickly some of these companies did away with the policy after the CDC announcement - I wonder how the proof of vaccination will be provided? The slightly thicker than printer paper cardstock vaccine record card isn't going to last long. I'm told that some places refuse to laminate it for fear of destroying it. Well, is a photo of my vaccine card good enough?

Going to be interesting. I'm very happy with how Apple has treated its employees - got to talk to a few when they opened back up - employees were all paid, many took the time to take college classes, get certifications, etc (from what I was told).

It will be easy enough to forge and therefore will be replaced with some sort of digital passport.

 

[shigzeo]

Optional defeats the purpose.

I guess the only problem that quite a few people have is that, with a 99,7% survival rate, and an average age of death rate higher than the average age of death in a number of countries, this pandemic, and its fixes, seems a little suspect. And, with the obvious idea of destroying cohesion between people by means of introducing vaccines that either must be taken according to law, or punishable by social ostracisation, the purposes of the measures seems less about ameliorating the negative effects of a disease and more about fomenting internal strife.

It reminds me of the Scottish political situation, whereby the nationalistic Scotts rail against England, but will happily accept the EU, or happily accept non-Europeans more than they would alliance with England.

Divide and conquer.

 

[hans1972]

The way I see it, the CDC guideline couldn't have come early enough. If anything, it is a little too vague. I wish they had gone into more details.

If you read the CDC guideline it states "[...]except where required by [...] local business and workplace guidance."