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"the trial did show that Apple is engaging in anticompetitive conduct under California’s competition laws"

"the evidence presented showed anticompetitive effects and excessive operating margins under any normative measure"
While given that the federal appeals court let the order stand means they don’t consider this point relevant (because it happened after the judge’s original ruling), I will point out that a California court, affirmed by the court of appeals, disagrees that Apple’s conduct is anticompetitive or violated Californian law.

So while it will stand for this ruling, it actually was an incorrect interpretation and had the case been heard today, the judge would have had to rule in Apple’s favor on the point. It’s only through a quirk of timing that the judge ruled the way she did.

Doesn’t make anything different for Apple, but the judge was actually wrong.
 
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“That’s a lot of trillions! We should definitely punish them for their effective closed business model that was initially the butt of tech world jokes but has actually proven much more effective than our business model, making our only option a ‘litigate ourselves to competitive’ strategy that should work, given the legal system will apply dated laws and perspectives to an industry that has moved far beyond said dated laws and perspectives.”

All of the energy and resources put into trying to make Apple like everyone else, feels, amongst many, many other things, like SUCH a waste of said energy and resources.

I find it weird af that a company can eventually be deemed too good at being a company when/if their competitors cry “unfair!” and forced to operate like everyone else in the name of “what’s best for the consumer.” What a total crock. It’s actually [and only] “what’s best for executives and investors of their competitors.” What’s actually best for consumers, is clear, delineated choice and options. Watering down Apple removes options. It’s so short-sighted, so weak, so dumb.

But that’s just, like, my opinion man.

This might not be such a major concern if Apple weren't directly competing in many of these same services such as Apple TV+, Apple Music, Apple Books, Apple News, and Apple Arcade. For example, you still can't access Xbox games through a single app today due to Apple's restrictions. Beyond competing with other services, Apple also sets and enforces arbitrary rules that limit competition, including anti-steering provisions, a 30% in-app purchase fee, and special negotiated deals with major apps that have some leverage. Ironically, despite these restrictions on competitors, Apple frequently places direct ads on my iPad and iPhone promoting trials of their own services.

You mentioned concerns about "watering down" the experience. Could you clarify what exactly is being watered down, and how that supposedly removes user choices? Are you suggesting that introducing these abilities actually reduces options, and if so, how? Specifically, could you address the following potential changes:
  1. Allowing third-party app stores
  2. Permitting the direct installation of apps downloaded from the web (like on Android or macOS)
  3. Letting users set their default apps
  4. Allowing the deletion of native apps
  5. Enforcing RCS text messaging for all
  6. Enabling the use of different JavaScript and HTML rendering engine
From my perspective, as a user of Android, Windows, iPhone, iPad, and macOS devices, these changes seem to increase options for users, not diminish them.
 
they were harmed by violating their own agreement. So they harmed themselves.
They were harmed by anticompetitive terms in Apple’s terms and conditions (that they had no choice but to accept, in order to market to iPhone users at all).

Of course they also harmed themselves by violating other terms that they could not show to be illegal in court (which is why their developer access got revoked).
 
They were harmed by anticompetitive terms in Apple’s terms and conditions (that they had no choice but to accept, in order to market to iPhone users at all).

Of course they also harmed themselves by violating other terms that they could not show to be illegal in court (which is why their developer access got revoked).
Google’s terms and conditions are illegal and yet everyone that uses Google accepts them and holds them in high regard. Apple’s terms and conditions are not anticompetitive, you just hate Apple because they are successful.
 
You mentioned concerns about "watering down" the experience. Could you clarify what exactly is being watered down, and how that supposedly removes user choices? Are you suggesting that introducing these abilities actually reduces options, and if so, how? Specifically, could you address the following potential changes:
  1. Allowing third-party app stores
  2. Permitting the direct installation of apps downloaded from the web (like on Android or macOS)
  3. Letting users set their default apps
  4. Allowing the deletion of native apps
  5. Enforcing RCS text messaging for all
  6. Enabling the use of different JavaScript and HTML rendering engine
From my perspective, as a user of Android, Windows, iPhone, iPad, and macOS devices, these changes seem to increase options for users, not diminish them.
Speaking for myself, my biggest issue is that I don’t think the government should be dictating how a company does business without a very good reason, and “I could get all of this if I bought an Android but I don’t want to” isn’t a good reason, let alone a very good one.

All the government has done with these changes is introduced complexity, reduced privacy and security, and taken valuable engineering resources away from features 98% of users actually care about to appease a tiny minority of users who’d clearly be better served buying an Android device but want to have their cake and eat it too. The Crowdstrike fiasco showed us very clearly what happens the government starts dictating how software works - it’s a shame they haven’t learned their lesson.

To your specific points:

Points 1-2: It reduces the choice for a closed ecosystem, and reduces the privacy and security of all of Apple’s users (There’s a reason virtually all mobile malware impacts Android.) I don’t want to have to hunt through and install multiple app stores, remember where I got this or that app, deal with different privacy terms, etc. If that’s an important option for you, the option with 70+% of the global market allows it. There should be a place for users who want a closed ecosystem to have that option.

Point 3: I don’t have an issue with this, but it absolutely doesn’t rise to the level of something that should be (or needs to be) regulated.

Point 4: Again this is a stupid thing for the government to be mandating, and likely required Apple to spend significant engineering resources that would have been better spent making features that more than 7 people actually care about.

Point 5: No issue here; I actually think the government is on firmer ground to mandate RCS messaging than most of the other mandates given things like texting emergency services are starting to come online.

Point 6: Government shouldn’t be mandating this, and this introduces a significant security issue for almost no tangible benefit for the vast, vast majority of Apple’s users. There’s a reason Apple even disables its own JIT in Safari in Lockdown Mode.

Ultimately, the issue is that, in my opinion, the government shouldn’t be getting involved at all! Apple has <30% of the market, and the market leader allows all of this. I think Apple knows better than regulators how to design their OS, and the free market was working just fine without governments butting in.
 
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They were harmed by anticompetitive terms in Apple’s terms and conditions (that they had no choice but to accept, in order to market to iPhone users at all).
No “they” weren’t. (And the California ruling might not stick so don’t start the fireworks yet)
Of course they also harmed themselves by violating other terms that they could not show to be illegal in court (which is why their developer access got revoked).
I guess the terms of the developer agreement is solid then.
 
@KevinN206

There seem to be users who want to have the choice to have an experience with less choice.

It’s a strange pretzel logic to me, but it’s a thing around here.
Totally. There seems to be a minority of users who want more choice at the expense of bugs, security, multiple payment systems and directed app stores. Strange pretzel logic to take a good system and make it worse. Oh me oh my, will Apple customers ever all want the same thing?
 
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The analogy does not work. A Better analogy would be the driver having to pay a percentage of their fair to the company providing the taxi and the service on the backend to get the driver to the fairs.

I guess you see your business as a driver working for Apple. That is ok, it’s your prerogative.

Nevertheless you are correct in stating that this analogy is not complete.

The cherry on top that makes it look legit …

Driver: When you close the deal don’t forget to remind your customer to come and pay you through me. That is a choice he made when gave you his address. Otherwise you will be in breach of contract.

Business man: What?

Driver: It’s only fair mate. I am the only driver that can take you to the address your customer gave you. I created and sold the address.

Business Man: Well, it should be then be the customer paying you that fee right?

Driver: Of course. It’s paying you through me … I keep the fee.

Business man: Does your customer understand that at all?

Driver: Probably not. But why would he care? You, your digital services and products will already have closed the deal right? Just remember, is due to this safe ride away from burglars and other entities that mean you and your customer no good. Do you want to get payed or what? Best of luck closing that deal.

Business Man: … I’m totally … don't know how to feel about this ...

Driver: I am inspired how so many businesses are enriching peoples lives, truly amazing. Be safe, all the best. The futures is your to make. If you need further assistance, business workshops, anything that you need contact me again. Don’t forget to call me when you need another ride to close a deal. I’m here to help you succeed.

The business man leaves the cab … “What has just happened here? Why do I feel my entire cognitive system was rewired, hacked even?”

Now go back to the beginning of the story and look at what actually happened before all the fluff. Welcome to a brave new world ...
 
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I guess you see your business as a driver working for Apple. That is ok, it’s your prerogative.

Nevertheless you are correct in stating that this analogy is not complete.

The cherry on top that makes it look legit …

Driver: When you close the deal don’t forget to remind your customer to come and pay you through me. That is a choice he made when gave you his address. Otherwise you will be in breach of contract.

Business man: What?

Driver: It’s only fair mate. I am the only driver that can take you to the address your customer gave you.

Business Man: Well, it should be then be the customer paying you that fee right?

Driver: Of course. It’s paying you through me … I keep the fee.

Business man: Does your customer understand that at all?

Driver: Probably not. But why would he care? You, your digital services and products will already have closed right? Just remember all due to this safe ride away from burglars and other entities that mean you no good. Do you want to get payed or what? Best of luck closing that deal.

Business Man: … I’m totally … don't know how to feel about this ...

Driver: I am inspired how so many businesses are enriching peoples lives, truly amazing. Be safe, all the best. The futures is your to make. If you need further assistance, business workshops, anything that you need contact me again. Don’t forget to call me when you need another ride to close a deal. I’m here to help you succeed.

The business man leaves the cab … “What has just happened here? Why do I fell my entire cognitive system was rewired, hacked even?”

Now go back to the beginning of the story and look at what actually happened before all the fluff. Welcome to a brave new world ...
You are still wrong, but I expected that.
 
You are still wrong, but I expected that.

I didn’t expect to change your mind. But since you reframed the analogy by casting yourself and others as Apple cab drivers instead of customers like the original example, I figured a bit of clarification might help.

To each their own, including the roles they feel most comfortable playing in their lives.
 
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@KevinN206

There seem to be users who want to have the choice to have an experience with less choice.

It’s strange pretzel logic to me, but it’s a thing around here.

People want a better user experience, and different users have different interpretations of what they mean.

It’s not that we want less choice for the sake of it, but that we believe that the downsides of having less choice is worth the benefits as well.

For example, the inability to sideload could result in better device security if users can’t be tricked into downloading malware onto their devices via fake links and scammy Facebook ads.

Having all apps housed in one central repository means not having my updates scattered amongst multiple platforms.

Developers benefit from less software piracy as well (if android is any indicator), which can translate into better sales.

Yes, there may be people who desire what iOS doesn’t offer (such as the ability to install vaping / pornography apps), and that’s what android is for. To me, it just doesn’t make sense for people to look at android, with all its flaws and shortcomings, and go “yeah, we should definitely import all these problems into ios and create issues for the very people who choose iOS specifically so they didn’t have to deal with them”. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 
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For example, the inability to sideload could result in better device security if users can’t be tricked into downloading malware onto their devices via fake links and scammy Facebook ads.

Having all apps housed in one central repository means not having my updates scattered amongst multiple platforms.

Developers benefit from less software piracy as well (if android is any indicator), which can translate into better sales.

I agree with you, but that’s not really the issue at hand.

The issue is that Apple demands exclusive rights to monetize any products or services accessible through your apps, or the app itself, leveraging its control over the iPhone — a dominant endpoint in the digital network that underpins much of the modern economy. It's not the only dominant player, but that is beside the point. Most people only have one smartphone.

In other words, it uses its control over the central distribution channel tied to recipients addresses (iPhones) to enforce policies that many consider shady and anti-competitive. Across all and any business.

Have fun.
 
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The issue is that Apple demands exclusive rights to monetize any products or services accessible through your apps, or the app itself, leveraging its control over the iPhone — a dominant endpoint in the digital network that underpins much of the modern economy. It's not the only dominant player, but that is beside the point. Most people only have one smartphone.
That to me is a feature, rather than a bug.

First, as per the study, most transactions don't involve any money being paid to Apple. A case could probably be made that Apple is actually not monetising the iOS App Store as much as they could have (meaning that Apple could have made more money from developers if they wished), but that's another debate for another day.

Second, there is no question that the App Store is supporting a massive app economy that continues to see significant growth. I believe reading somewhere else that Apple continues to make inroads in preventing fraudulent transactions and terminating accounts that belong to bad actors. The takeaway here is that there is a lot going on behind the scenes that we simply don't see. Meanwhile, the one-off report of a developer's app being rejected by app review (or an errant app making it through review) dominates news headlines whereas in reality, the problem would have been way worse without Apple's heavy-handed curation and vetting efforts.

It is these relentless efforts which leads to less piracy, less problematic apps, an increased confidence to spend, all of which results in an all-round better App Store experience for both developers and consumers (ie: everything we don't see in the Google Play Store). Unfortunately, regulators in various countries around the world are being swayed by multi-billion dollar companies with ulterior motives to conclude that Apple's curation model is actually a problem.

Like I said, by every metric, the google play store is faring worse than the iOS App Store despite its larger user base. Why would I want Apple to give up what has been working well for it and for consumers, in exchange for a model which clearly results in a worse experience for all parties involved (except for a few multi-billion dollar companies like Epic and Spotify who stand to make more money via IAPs)?
 
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First, as per the study, most transactions don't involve any money being paid to Apple.

What transactions? No transactions are reported outside the App Store. The conclusions over its material influence are merely speculative. It’s Apple scratching their backs.

As for being a feature and not a bug. What are you referring specifically?

As for the rest of your reasoning is not even close to the point in contention.

Roger out.
 
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