Apple Sued by U.S. Department of Justice, Says Lawsuit is 'Wrong'

[icanhazmac]

No. Your analogy is not thought through and doesn’t work.

I should be (and am) able to use my Sony headphones regardless of what OS my phone uses. The app and functionality is the same.

There is no reason it should be any different with an Apple smartwatch, it should not be defining which smartphone I have to use.

I beg to differ. Perhaps all car parts should be interchangeable? All brakes, same. All mufflers, same. All engines, same, etc. Sounds like something the EU would like.

Let's adjust a bit... Let's say you own a Tesla and you really like their companion app for phones. Does that mean your Tesla app should also discover and work with the Ford you also own? It is silly to think you can achieve 100% interoperability without either a universal standard to work off of or spending your resources to write an app that makes your widget work perfectly with the competition. If I were Tesla in this scenario I would certainly charge for my app to work with the competition if I were inclined at all to offer the solution.

Anyway.... I don't see Samsung stepping up to the plate and being fully compatible either.

Which Galaxy Watches Work With the iPhone?

Do any Samsung Galaxy watches work with the iPhone?

www.howtogeek.com

There is also a major difference between a set of headphones and a watch in terms of functionality, not a great analogy either.

 

[bsolar]

Which Galaxy Watches Work With the iPhone?

Do any Samsung Galaxy watches work with the iPhone?

www.howtogeek.com

The stated reason why those Smartwatches dropped support of iOS is because Apple imposes heavy limitations to third-party smartwatches.

So yes, allegedly those smartwatches should not work any different on Android or iOS and they would if Apple would not limit their capabilities.

 

[icanhazmac]

The stated reason why those Smartwatches dropped support of iOS is because Apple imposes heavy limitations to third-party smartwatches.

So yes, allegedly those smartwatches should not work any different on Android or iOS and they would if Apple would not limit their capabilities.

From the article:

Samsung Galaxy Watches Not Compatible With iPhone

In 2021, Samsung switched away from Tizen and adopted Google's Wear OS. Despite Google making Wear OS compatible with the iPhone through a companion app, Samsung decided not to support it. Therefore, these Samsung Galaxy Watch models cannot work with iPhones:

Samsung Galaxy Watch 4
Samsung Galaxy Watch 5

If you want to use one of these models with an iPhone, your best bet is to get an LTE model that can work independently from a phone.

It's unfortunate that Samsung dropped support for the iPhone with the switch to Wear OS. Now, the best smartwatch options on the market (Apple Watch and Samsung Galaxy Watch) are essentially locked to specific phones. If you're an iPhone user, you are better off opting for an Apple Watch.

Please point to the part that is Apple's fault? Sammy watches don't work with iOS because Sammy dropped support for functionality that Google provides.

 

[bsolar]

It's unfortunate that Samsung dropped support for the iPhone with the switch to Wear OS. Now, the best smartwatch options on the market (Apple Watch and Samsung Galaxy Watch) are essentially locked to specific phones. If you're an iPhone user, you are better off opting for an Apple Watch.

Please point to the part that is Apple's fault? Sammy watches don't work with iOS because Sammy dropped support that Google provides.

The explanation pointing to Apple was stated here:

Samsung’s Director of Global Product Planning, Junho Park, elaborated on the matter: “The goal is: how can we provide the best experience to our customers? We found that some of the heavy limitations [users experienced when using a Galaxy Watch with iOS] were not driven by the Watch [itself], by the core product.

“So we thought, ‘Hey, there is still a lot of disconnection [between these two systems].' That was one of the reasons we dropped [iOS support on Galaxy Watches] – we could not deliver the same level of experience with Android and iOS.”

 

[icanhazmac]

The explanation pointing to Apple was stated here:

First off, anyone can say "Apple makes it too hard", doesn't mean it is true. It is like Instagram saying "It’s still just not a big enough group of people to be a priority,” as their excuse for not making an iPad app.

To what lengths should a manufacturer of "widget A" be forced to go through to ensure it works with every other manufacturer?

Where else do you find the level of complicated interoperability between manufacturers that you seek to blame Apple for here? Hell, all these years later MS still cannot guarantee 100% interoperability between the Windows and Mac versions of Office.

 

[I7guy]

Again, "vote with your wallet" assumes the free market is operating as it should. The DoJ alleges that it's not.

The price of an iPhone is not dependent on the price of any one their competitors or vice versa.

 

[spazzcat]

From what I understand basically none of the practices the DoJ alleges apple did are "per se" illegal: they can become illegal in the context of Apple having monopoly power though.

This is IMHO what some are missing: the exact same practice can be perfectly legal or an antitrust violation depending on the determination of having monopoly power or not.

The DoJ alleges that Apple has monopoly power and it's IMHO the hardest hurdle they have to overcome to prevail, but if they do suddenly that "private API" might become a problem for Apple whereas if they fail that private API would be a legitimate business decision.

In my opinion, that's where the DOJ's case starts falling apart really fast. They're not trying to prove that Apple has a monopoly in their market or segment, but that they're a monopoly of their platform, and that's going to be a tough sell and a long uphill battle in a court of law.

 

[visualseed]

But they are. I would love to use an S24, it’s objectively better than the 15 Pro. However I can’t, because I’m not prepared to give up my AW Ultra, which is objectively better than any other smartwatch.

This should not have to be an either/or choice - there is zero reason , other than anti competitive market position leverage, that there is no Apple Watch app on Android making it possible to use the two together.

So you succumbed to sunk cost fallacy? That's not a good argument.

 

[dk001]

…

Have you ever gotten SMS scam via iMessage ? My count is ZERO.
…

I have serious doubts on the validity of that statement. I see them and others in my family with iPhones routinely.
The majority of the latest round involve shipping or held packages.

These show as iMessage, not just SMS.

 

[ender78]

This should not have to be an either/or choice - there is zero reason , other than anti competitive market position leverage, that there is no Apple Watch app on Android making it possible to use the two together.

There is one reason, it costs money time and resources to implement. Every minute that an Apple Engineer spends on working on an Apple Watch for Android is a minute they are spending on making my experience better. By catering to you my experience is potentially degraded. That is one of the reasons that I am not a fan of forcing Apple to develop for other platforms. If Apple is forced to do this then Microsoft and all other game studios must release every game they make to work on Apple Silicon. Fair is Fair.

 

[visualseed]

This should not have to be an either/or choice - there is zero reason , other than anti competitive market position leverage, that there is no Apple Watch app on Android making it possible to use the two together.

Every single day businesses and developers make the decisions to support or not support platforms for their apps and products. Are you saying the law needs to compel them to support every platform or they are deliberately being anti-competitive? Seriously, even if in Apple's case they come out and say "we believe the AppleWatch is only for iPhone customers", that is legally their right and simply good business.

 

[dk001]

So by your logic you should be able to take the engine out of your Toyota and place it into your Ford and have it work perfectly and easily?

Apple cannot and should not be forced to write apps for the competition.

Good thing Samsung is fully compatible.... oh wait.

Which Galaxy Watches Work With the iPhone?

Do any Samsung Galaxy watches work with the iPhone?

www.howtogeek.com

You need to be careful with statements like these. Is it OEM A doesn’t allow it or is it OEM B doesn’t allow it?
I can link my Galaxy watch to my 15PM but cannot link my AWU to my S24U.

Not all functions on my GW work on an iPhone because of Apple limitations and Sammy requirements. But at least I can link it and use most. Apple doesn’t allow even linking. That, is on Apple.

 

[bsolar]

First off, anyone can say "Apple makes it too hard", doesn't mean it is true. It is like Instagram saying "It’s still just not a big enough group of people to be a priority,” as their excuse for not making an iPad app.

To what lengths should a manufacturer of "widget A" be forced to go through to ensure it works with every other manufacturer?

Where else do you find the level of complicated interoperability between manufacturers that you seek to blame Apple for here? Hell, all these years later MS still cannot guarantee 100% interoperability between the Windows and Mac versions of Office.

That's for sure: the DoJ still has to prove the allegations. Depending on what they will be able to prove or not, your questions might have very different answers.

 

[dk001]

From the article:

Samsung Galaxy Watches Not Compatible With iPhone

In 2021, Samsung switched away from Tizen and adopted Google's Wear OS. Despite Google making Wear OS compatible with the iPhone through a companion app, Samsung decided not to support it. Therefore, these Samsung Galaxy Watch models cannot work with iPhones:

Samsung Galaxy Watch 4
Samsung Galaxy Watch 5

If you want to use one of these models with an iPhone, your best bet is to get an LTE model that can work independently from a phone.

It's unfortunate that Samsung dropped support for the iPhone with the switch to Wear OS. Now, the best smartwatch options on the market (Apple Watch and Samsung Galaxy Watch) are essentially locked to specific phones. If you're an iPhone user, you are better off opting for an Apple Watch.

Please point to the part that is Apple's fault? Sammy watches don't work with iOS because Sammy dropped support for functionality that Google provides.

Then why does mine work with my 15PM? Like I stated earlier, it connects and most features work. On the flip side, I cannot even connect my AWU with my S24U.

 

[BigDO]

I beg to differ. Perhaps all car parts should be interchangeable? All brakes, same. All mufflers, same. All engines, same, etc. Sounds like something the EU would like.

Let's adjust a bit... Let's say you own a Tesla and you really like their companion app for phones. Does that mean your Tesla app should also discover and work with the Ford you also own? It is silly to think you can achieve 100% interoperability without either a universal standard to work off of or spending your resources to write an app that makes your widget work perfectly with the competition. If I were Tesla in this scenario I would certainly charge for my app to work with the competition if I were inclined at all to offer the solution.

Anyway.... I don't see Samsung stepping up to the plate and being fully compatible either.

Which Galaxy Watches Work With the iPhone?

Do any Samsung Galaxy watches work with the iPhone?

www.howtogeek.com

There is also a major difference between a set of headphones and a watch in terms of functionality, not a great analogy either.

Another flawed analogy. No, it’s nothing like “all car parts being interchangeable”.

In your Tesla example, it would be akin to it only being able to connect to a Tesla phone, or a single phone on the market chosen by Tesla based on a collusive alliance.

 

[BigDO]

So you succumbed to sunk cost fallacy? That's not a good argument.

Read up on the sunk cost fallacy. My example is not related to any cost, simply preference for one item (watch) which forces me to use an inferior item (iPhone), because Apple decided to not offer the option of using the watch with another OS.

 

[BigDO]

Every single day businesses and developers make the decisions to support or not support platforms for their apps and products. Are you saying the law needs to compel them to support every platform or they are deliberately being anti-competitive? Seriously, even if in Apple's case they come out and say "we believe the AppleWatch is only for iPhone customers", that is legally their right and simply good business.

US DoJ seems to disagree. We’ll have front seats in seeing how it plays out.

 

[Realityck]

US DoJ seems to disagree. We’ll have front seats in seeing how it plays out.

Using this as a example from the 88 page document.

Critically, Apple’s anticompetitive conduct not only limits competition in the smartphone market, but also reverberates through the industries that are affected by these restrictions, including financial services, fitness, gaming, social media, news media, entertainment, and more. Unless Apple’s anticompetitive and exclusionary conduct is stopped, it will likely extend and entrench its iPhone monopoly to other markets and parts of the economy.

For example, Apple is rapidly expanding its influence and growing its power in the automotive, content creation and entertainment, and financial services industries–and often by doing so in exclusionary ways that further reinforce and deepen the competitive moat around the iPhone.

This resembles a witch hunt rather than something factual wrong and suggested remediation IMHO. Look at that line I highlighted, its like imagining the worst with everything rather then being reality based.

Is the DOJ running with some fortune tellers that predict crimes before they are crimes?

 

[ender78]

Read up on the sunk cost fallacy. My example is not related to any cost, simply preference for one item (watch) which forces me to use an inferior item (iPhone), because Apple decided to not offer the option of using the watch with another OS.

So why the hell would you buy a product that you know is not compatible. You're advocating for the impossible. Why can companies not choose what operating systems they want to build support for in their product. I don't know what world people live in that suggest that all devices need to be compatible with all others. If we as consumers don't agree with their choices we don't buy their products. Hundreds of millions of users across the globe like the way Apple does business.

 

[ender78]

US DoJ seems to disagree. We’ll have front seats in seeing how it plays out.

You may think you're watching a comedy and I consider it a horror show. This can set an incredibly dangerous precedent that mandates a level of compatibility into law.

 

[visualseed]

Read up on the sunk cost fallacy. My example is not related to any cost, simply preference for one item (watch) which forces me to use an inferior item (iPhone), because Apple decided to not offer the option of using the watch with another OS.

So? Your sunk cost is preference, and you want to preserve it by throwing money at an iPhone to keep using it. You are not forced to do anything. You choose to. I like the mop attachment I bought for my inferior Bissell robot vacuum. I can't use it with the Shark one that I think works better but I'm not screaming its anti-competitive. I have a garage full of power tools with attachments and accessories that are specific to their brands and models. Sometimes it's frustrating and annoying, but I don't believe it is the government's job to enforce interoperability.

 

[icanhazmac]

Another flawed analogy. No, it’s nothing like “all car parts being interchangeable”.

In your Tesla example, it would be akin to it only being able to connect to a Tesla phone, or a single phone on the market chosen by Tesla based on a collusive alliance.

Tesla example: And so what if it was only available on their phone? In this scenario why should Tesla be forced to write and app for competitors phones? If they don't and the market doesn't like it, then they lose sales, if the market doesn't care then so be it.

"Or on a single phone chosen by..." - I am sure there are plenty of apps that are iOS or Android only, are you saying that all apps MUST be available on all platforms?

PS - analogies are rarely perfect, if the fact that I didn't have a perfect analogy is all you have then.......

 

[spazzcat]

Read up on the sunk cost fallacy. My example is not related to any cost, simply preference for one item (watch) which forces me to use an inferior item (iPhone), because Apple decided to not offer the option of using the watch with another OS.

Expect the AW is meant to be an extension of iOS/iPhone.

 

[wbeasley]

The only reason I am not repeating the statement that you did not read the complaint is because I do not want to be rude. If you had read the complaint, you would not have made so many comments that are already explained in the complaint.

I was not making snide remarks. I am not a legal expert so I am going by what experts have said about the complaint. I am not saying DOJ will win, I am saying they have a good case. Apple has to win every point; DOJ needs to win only some. There will be a discovery phase which will bring out many points that Apple might not want to and will/may remove the sheen of Apple.

Bullies get their comeuppance. Nothing wrong.

"i did not want to be rude" hahaha.

the complaint explains nothing. it is waffly at best.

"I was not making snide remarks". again hahaha. that was your intent. totally. couldnt provide evidence so resorted to "oh you are a legal expert". even you know that's exactly the intent of your comment. just admit it.

so you admit you want the "sheen of Apple removed".

And implying Apple is a bully? it's a company that exists to make profit by building products to sell.

There's a lot wrong with your intent in making so much noise on this topic. Repeatedly you rail against Apple.
It's tiring and needs to be called out.

I will make as many comments as I like as this is a forum. You do. And I will call them out when I disagree.

 

[wbeasley]

Your anecdotal evidence means nothing in this case.

why? anecdotal evidence is real world experience of what happens and how it affects users such as myself.

i'm not some individual who only uses Apple products.
i have years of helping people use their devices, both Apple and Android (and Windows), and that experience has shown the types of problems and issues people run into when they can install apps without checks and just do silly things like clicking on links they shouldn't.

The amount of effort to clean up these mistakes is time consuming.

You and many here might be tech savvy. The general population arent. They are a weak point exploited by bad agents.

Even you cannot deny that.