Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
by virtue

itself against Samsung in Australia where it similarly claimed that Apple is protected from attacks based on these patents related to core cellular technologies by virtue of Qualcomm's licensing agreements. Motorola and Samsung have disagreed with Apple on that front, and Apple is now pressing the matter with a lawsuit of its own specifically addressing the issue as it relates to Motorola's efforts in Germany.
 
Should Qualcomm be the one in trouble then?

Apple - "Hey you told me you weren't going to sell those chips to anyone else"

Qualcomm - "They offered me money, sorry? Here have a cookie."

Why's it's Motorola's problem? Unless they told Qualcomm that they were only using those chips for something else.

You seem to have it backwards.

Qualcomm licenses a patent from Moto, and builds their chip with it. They then sell that chip to Apple, and now Moto wants to charge Apple for selling a product with the already licensed chip.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You are missing my point - if you think it doesn't affect you, you aren't paying attention. Who do think is paying for the hundreds of millions of dollars that are being spent on these non-stop patent sue-fests? I can assure you that you are paying both now and will continue to do so in the future.

Whether Apple goes or court or not is not going to change their product prices.
 
but let's forgive moto for now. Google is trying very hard to recoup that $12 billion, after all. They might find, however, that they've bitten off a little more than they (or moto) can chew.

The way I see it, Moto (and others) are trying to seek profits from their IP, mainly because 80% of the phone market profits are now going to Apple. They need to redress this imbalance for the sake of keeping their shareholders happy.

However, this doesn't make the case for using FRAND patents stronger. Once a patent becomes essential to a STANDARD, then it should not be used offensively, because there is no work-around for such patents. Ironically, its possible that Apple will be seen as a 'victim' of patent abuse by anti trust bodies around the world, even given their dominant position in the market. So, the more success Moto have with their FRAND patents, the more likely they are to fall foul of anti trust rules, particularly if they force Apple to pull their products out of the market.

It also seems likely that Moto will be seen as discriminating against Apple, unless they can prove that they are charging other manufacturers a similar fee.

Finally, should Moto prevail, then they will be vulnerable to similar tactics, once Apple can use their FRAND patents to sue Moto.

If Apple were to win this case, I think Moto are finished, even with Google to back them up.
 
It's simply really. Motorola has licensed its FRAND patents to Qualcomm. Qualcomm pays the licensing fee and is free to use that tech in its chips. Apple purchases and uses said Qualcomm chips in its products. Motorola is now trying to collect a fee from Apple for the use of its technology covered by the FRAND patents even though they have already collected the fee from Qualcomm. Motorola is trying to double dip and argue that Apple should not be included in its licensing agreement with Qualcomm. Essentially, Motorola is trying to collect a non-FRAND patent fee from Apple for a FRAND patent, even though they already collected that fee from Qualcomm.

I agree, if it's not more to Moto's case than that. If this really is what they're doing, then by that twisted logic they should also demand a licensing fee from us customers

I do not know the details on this one but the mere fact that Qualcomm licensed something from Motorola does not necessarily mean that the user of their chips does not have to license this thing. For example, the patent may cover some mechanism which implementation requires certain chip functionality (hence Qualcomm license) and complementing functionality in the phone circuitry (or antenna or whatever). In this case, phone manufacturer would have to get a license too.

Nonsense. Do you have people coming to your home demanding you pay them a stipend for all the parts of your television, car, mixer, or refrigerator? When you buy a product, you buy the things that were used in making it as well. Apple bought these chips, so Moto already got paid.

I don't think you understand what lilo is saying.
If you buy a brush and a bucket of paint and use it to make a copy of a famous painting, the fact that you paid "license fee" for the brush and paint doesn't mean you also have a license to copy the painting.
It could be that Moto's case is about a patented way of implementation that is seperate from the license Qualcom have for the technology
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

richlizard24 said:
Well if it really is that clear cut and motorola are trying cash in twice then something needs to be done about it.



So if Qualcomm pays for the licence who are they meant to sell the chips to if no one else has the licence?

The way it is supposed to work is that the license is transferred when a company purchases the chips from Qualcomm. This appears to be fine with Motorola, but not when it is Apple purchasing the chips from Qualcomm. Motorola is abusing its FRAND patents to try and get a massive cut of Apple's mobile business.

Bingo.
 
Qualcomm is the licensee here, not Apple.

The courts will bear this out in their findings.
 
I'm really no expert on international law, so maybe you can help me understand this.
Motorola sues Apple in Germany because they claim that Apple has no license to use their patents.
Apple claims that they do in fact have that license because they have bought their parts from someone who has already paid for that license.
But rather than using this claim to make the German judge dismiss Motorola's suit they start a new case in the US suing Motorola for suing them in Germany.
Have I got this right? And if so: How does that make sense?
 
I understand the need to protect intellectual property but this is bordering on lunacy. The cost of all this litigation, damages and royalties is coming out of your and my wallets. In the end, no matter who "wins" all of these various patent cases, we as consumers are the ones losing.

In this case, Apple has the choice of giving in to the patent bully, or countersuing. This case will either fail, in which case it has no effect, or Apple wins, in which case Apple avoids paying damages and royalties. So as a consumer, you can only win. Motorola wants 2.25% of the sale price of every iPhone, so who do you think gets hurt if they succeed?


Finally, should Moto prevail, then they will be vulnerable to similar tactics, once Apple can use their FRAND patents to sue Moto.

Motorola wants a percentage of the purchase price, Apple wants a fixed rate. Apple has lots of LTE related patents. So Apple will probably say "Motorola wanted us to pay $16 per iPhone, so we ask for a fixed rate of $16 per Motorola phone".


Legalities aside (we do not really know enough details to understand the situation), consider the following. The end product that Motorola's patents enable is a mobile phone. As I understand, [F]RAND licenses typically cost about 2%. So, lets say this fee is charged on a $500 phone. That's $10 bucks per phone. Now, if Qualcomm put patented tech inside a chip that costs $50. All of a sudden Motorola's cut drops to $1. I suspect that the chips in question actually cost $5, which means that Motorola gets 10 cents per phone. Perhaps this makes sense for Apple but certainly not to Motorola and it makes mockery of the whole FRAND concept. Could Motorola charge $10 per chip? Maybe nut I am not sure that this would work for Qualcomm. So, this might be a new issue that arose because of the dramatic changes in the mobile industry. Perhaps the old ways (FRAND or the definition of "F" in it) don't make any sense anymore. I am sure they'll figure that out though ;) In the mean time we all can enjoy the progress that the industry is experiencing.

The iPhone is a complete iPod Touch, plus a decent camera, plus some other things, plus a phone. Motorola wants their 2.25% of the iPod Touch, the 2.25% of the camera, the 2.25% of other things, plus 2.25% of the phone part. Why should Apple, and in turn the consumer, pay 2.25% of lots and lots and lots of things that have nothing to do with Motorola's patent? And in turn, if the camera in the iPhone uses some patents, why should the owner of these camera patents get any money from the phone part? Why should Apple pay more for the iPhone then they would pay if they sold an iPod Touch, a camera, and a phone, all separately, for the same total amount?

Now if Qualcomm makes a chip for $5.00, and 90% of the chip function is implementing one Motorola patent, then yes, 2.25% would seem low. But if Qualcomm made a different chip for $10.00, and 45% of the chip function is implementing one Motorola patent, and another 45% of the chip is implementing say a Samsung patent, should Qualcomm pay twice the money to Motorola? Because they added totally different functionality? The fixed percentage just doesn't make sense.
 
Last edited:
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A406 Safari/7534.48.3)

No one wins except the lawyers
 
Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A406 Safari/7534.48.3)

No one wins except the lawyers

Not true in this case. The lawyers always win but this case is actually forcing the courts to decided on things that will affect past and future complaints. There will be winners and losers from this one.
 
Whether Apple goes or court or not is not going to change their product prices.

Actually it might. If they don't go to court and they lose all the lawsuits someone else filed against them, then because they'd be paying more loyalties than now, products might get more expensive.
 
Qualcomm licenses a patent from Moto, and builds their chip with it. They then sell that chip to Apple, and now Moto wants to charge Apple for selling a product with the already licensed chip.

Most of this thread is built on misconceptions.

This is not about double-dipping, because Motorola terminated the Qualcomm license with respect to chips sold to Apple.

In other words, according to Motorola the chips sold to Apple had no license. This meant Motorola could deal directly with Apple instead of through Qualcomm.

So it's really about whether or not terminating the contract was okay.

Apple's lawsuit complaints are that 1) Motorola interfered with their Qualcomm contract... i.e. Motorola had no right to terminate it, and 2) it was a discriminatory move.

It also seems likely that Moto will be seen as discriminating against Apple, unless they can prove that they are charging other manufacturers a similar fee.

Another common misconception.

Fees don't have to be similar. The Fair and Non-discriminatory definitions of FRAND only apply to what things the contracts cover, not the Fees.

Fees just have to be Reasonable... or more importantly, in a court's eyes they have to be not unreasonable.
 
Last edited:
Seems like the legal fur is really flying these days. Is it Steve's legacy or a new direction by the new management?
 
Seriously? Well Apple started this mess so what is to blame for the other companies defending themselves? Apple is entirely to blame for this nonsense.
 
Most of this thread is built on misconceptions.

This is not about double-dipping, because Motorola terminated the Qualcomm license with respect to chips sold to Apple.

Which brings up that good old "Non-Discriminatory" thing.

If Qualcomm can continue to sell baseband chips, covered by its Motorola license, to everyone except Apple - then isn't that pretty much the textbook example of discrimination?

As I've noted elsewhere, Motorola and Samsung don't really want Apple to pay license fees. What they really want is for Apple to cross-license its non-FRAND smartphone IP to them, because they know that without it, Android is going to be very either vulnerable to valid infringement claims, or so compromised from a user-experience standpoint as to be at a serious disadvantage.
 
Which brings up that good old "Non-Discriminatory" thing.

If Qualcomm can continue to sell baseband chips, covered by its Motorola license, to everyone except Apple - then isn't that pretty much the textbook example of discrimination?

As I've noted elsewhere, Motorola and Samsung don't really want Apple to pay license fees. What they really want is for Apple to cross-license its non-FRAND smartphone IP to them, because they know that without it, Android is going to be very either vulnerable to valid infringement claims, or so compromised from a user-experience standpoint as to be at a serious disadvantage.

And Apple is not going to do that. Apple doesn't want Google's money. They want Android dead.
 
Which brings up that good old "Non-Discriminatory" thing.

I think you're right about that and the patents.

I think Apple has no case over reasonable rates. They're making a huge profit on a device that would not exist without Motorola's patents.

However, they're clearly being targeted by Motorola. Edit: The question is, is that Discriminatory with respect to FRAND? Maybe not, since they're still being offered the same license. That's all that the ND part covers.

--

Of course, if this were not a FRAND patent, no one would blink an eye. Apple targets other companies with patent lawsuits all the time.

What's a bit ironic is that Apple is claiming irreparable harm if they're not allowed to sell the iPhone 4S, but Apple has no problem whatsoever trying to stop the sales of competing devices and causing other companies irreparable harm. It's like watching my three year old grandkids claiming they can hit the other kid, but it's not fair to be hit in return.
 
Last edited:
Which brings up that good old "Non-Discriminatory" thing.

If Qualcomm can continue to sell baseband chips, covered by its Motorola license, to everyone except Apple - then isn't that pretty much the textbook example of discrimination?

As I've noted elsewhere, Motorola and Samsung don't really want Apple to pay license fees. What they really want is for Apple to cross-license its non-FRAND smartphone IP to them, because they know that without it, Android is going to be very either vulnerable to valid infringement claims, or so compromised from a user-experience standpoint as to be at a serious disadvantage.

Depends on where those chips were used too. It's not discriminatory if, for example, those chips (and I have no idea) were used in tablets or non cell-phone devices. Motorola could be in the clear if they stayed across the board and terminated Qualcomm from giving chips for cellphones (only).
 
I think you're right about that and the patents.

I think Apple has no case over reasonable rates. They're making a huge profit on a device that would not exist without Motorola's patents..

The profitability of the end device doesn't have much of any bearing on the "reasonableness" (or not) of the royalty rate. Apple is going to argue, quite convincingly, that it it is the "special sauce" of their innovation that makes the iPhone and iPad profitable. Cellphones and smartphones existed for many years, using the Motorola IP, before the iPhone showed up.

Apple's position (echoed by Microsoft and Cisco) is that Motorola is expanding the "royalty base" to include components and functionality far beyond that which is provided by the baseband technology. And, for better or worse, this is going to be an issue that has to be decided in court. There simply isn't legislation or contract language that governs this. Nor could we reasonably expect there to be. Legislators and Standards Setting Organizations simply cannot predict how a specific type of technology might be used in the future.
 
I want my money to go to the company (Samsung) that brought the manufacturing here to the US. Not the company (Apple) that has a lack of respect for basic human rights and has an overwhelming number of employees overseas in a Communist country that has a horrible track record with human rights violations. Despicable.

With your attitude you will soon not be able to buy anything.

Maybe you missed that the world has become a global economy?

Your oversimplified viewpoint only shows uneducated thinking!
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.