Apple Sues Think Secret

[rufwork]

Shooting themselves in the foot

Ignoring for now how this should (imo) come under freedom of the press (imagine if the gov't started suing people for (like Geraldo) broadcasting troop movements, etc), Apple should remember that it does have stockholders (like myself) that purchase on the strength of rumors at times. Did I like where the G5 and iPod were going? Yes, and I bought. And I like to buy a little before the rest of the world knows...

The point being, rumors can positively drive investment, and slamming the messenger only increases the ivory tower syndrome. If letting us know a whole two weeks in advance is going to spoil the competitive advantage, well, Apple, remember that if ThinkSecret can get it, your competitors probably caught wind long before.

 

[Mandril Design]

Sympathy for the Devil

So the Big Bad Steve Jobs has decided to go after Little Red Nick DePlume, condemnation to follow. I've been a reader of Think Secret and the general Mac rumor community for years, and, like a kid before Christmas, I delight in any peek I might get of what's coming. I don't know why I do this. I specifically pass up chances to peek at Christmas gifts for the same reason I don't cheat at games — it just takes away the fun. It's probably because, until recently, rumors and speculation have been just that.

When I was a kid, there were these trees that grew around my neighborhood. They had these bundles of flower pods that were filled with this nasty pee-smelling liquid. We used to nip the tips and squirt them at each other, and referred to them as "piss-piss plants." Once, for whatever kid-logic reason, I decided to collect all the piss-piss juice in the neighborhood. I enlisted some other kids to help me, which collapsed when one of them actually brought me a beaker of pee. I was horrified.

Like the grinning toe-headed kid holding a beaker of his own urine, Nick dePlume has gone too far. All we wanted was a simulation of the truth, not the real thing. We've always known that somehow Steve Jobs would get on that stage and reveal something even better than our speculations, and in revealing Steve's hand two weeks early, dePlume has essentially stolen Christmas. When I think about what I and other Mac fans have lost, I sigh, but when I think about what Steve Jobs has lost, it's almost physically painful.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. Some 20 years ago you got screwed out of a company you helped build, then watched from the sidelines as that company had its best cow sold to some huckster for a box of magic beans. The cow was the look-and-feel of the Macintosh operating system, the huckster was Bill Gates, and the box of magic beans was the agreement to keep making Microsoft Office for Macintosh. This idiotic deal with the devil, which Apple tried and failed to get out of, changed the course of computer history.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. You came back to the company, stopped the bleeding, and began the long, steady task of rebuilding. Finally, after 7 long years, you're back to that cross-roads and you're ready to take the road less travelled. You've got their attention, you've got the $500 machine, and to top it all off, you've got a big middle finger to give to Redmond — an office suite you might have well named "iCall your bluff."

Imagine being Steve Jobs. You're up on stage, all eyes are on you, all lenses are focused on you. You've got your revenge behind a black cloth. You've got your ultimate triumph, your "I can die now" moment, behind a coy "one more thing." You're ready for the cover of Time, the front page of the paper, the TV news. You're ready to let the world know you've come back and this time you're ready to fight.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. Everyone is yawning. Your triumph, your revenge, your "I can die now" moment is old news. Some ******* leaked it to a website, and it made its way from the rumor community to the fan community to the technical press to the mainstream press to Wall street. Everyone knows; they've known for two weeks. All the years of dreaming, driving, and fighting and it's not a bang, but a whimper.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. Really stop to imagine how much it must hurt, how you feel, and rightly so, that something has been stolen from you.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

It is a careful road that Apple should go down. It is because of AI and others that they saw their stock rise last year. Sure they had a hit after the word that PB's would not be updated till this year.

The rumor sites feed the rest of the press now. And Apple enjoys the fruit, even though short term they may not like it.

 

[Hieronymus]

If letting us know a whole two weeks in advance is going to spoil the competitive advantage, well, Apple, remember that if ThinkSecret can get it, your competitors probably caught wind long before.

Not necessarily. There is a whole field (competitive intelligence aka business intelligence) devoted to getting information on competitors without breaking the law. Essentially, it involves assembling numerous bits of legitimately acquired information into a big picture. The problem is that this is slow, painstaking, and expensive work. For that reason, not every company does it. And because of the high risks, few companies take illegal shortcuts.

Inciting someone to violate their NDA is a huge, and illegal, shortcut. By doing that and publishing the results for all to see, Think Secret does the dirty work for competitors.

If the competitors are really good at their CI, they have similar info well ahead of TS's report. In that case, the report confirms their work (in CI, confirmation from an independent source is a holy grail). TS has therefore helped damage Apple in this scenario.

On the other hand, maybe Apple is good at staying stealthy until things are almost ready to go, and then accurate info starts leaking out. In that case, CI would be largely ineffective for Apple competitors...if it weren't for TS handing them stuff on a silver platter. Even two weeks can be critical, as it's enough time for competitors to cook up ways to steal Apple's thunder. In this scenario, TS also damages Apple.

 

[bree]

Said in one form or another by various people:

When I see stuff like this (and there's a lot of it) I get the impression that people aren't even reading the posts by the people with actual knowledge of trade secret law.
<snip excellent explanation>

Gee.. I was going to write up the same subject matter, but you said it better than I could.

I'd like to add a little something though. For those who cite the first amendment... technically it only applies to congress (congress shall make no laws... ) and not the press. Although there is a tradition of protection for the press, there are actually legal definitions of what makes somebody 'press'. I doubt ThinkSecret can be defined as press in this manner.
Furthermore, rumors != trade secrets. Reporting rumors is in the nature of "the talk around the water cooler says"... reporting trade secrets is of the nature of "sources inside the company are revealing corporate information.."
Huge difference.

 

[rdowns]

So the Big Bad Steve Jobs has decided to go after Little Red Nick DePlume, condemnation to follow. I've been a reader of Think Secret and the general Mac rumor community for years, and, like a kid before Christmas, I delight in any peek I might get of what's coming. I don't know why I do this. I specifically pass up chances to peek at Christmas gifts for the same reason I don't cheat at games — it just takes away the fun. It's probably because, until recently, rumors and speculation have been just that.

When I was a kid, there were these trees that grew around my neighborhood. They had these bundles of flower pods that were filled with this nasty pee-smelling liquid. We used to nip the tips and squirt them at each other, and referred to them as "piss-piss plants." Once, for whatever kid-logic reason, I decided to collect all the piss-piss juice in the neighborhood. I enlisted some other kids to help me, which collapsed when one of them actually brought me a beaker of pee. I was horrified.

Like the grinning toe-headed kid holding a beaker of his own urine, Nick dePlume has gone too far. All we wanted was a simulation of the truth, not the real thing. We've always known that somehow Steve Jobs would get on that stage and reveal something even better than our speculations, and in revealing Steve's hand two weeks early, dePlume has essentially stolen Christmas. When I think about what I and other Mac fans have lost, I sigh, but when I think about what Steve Jobs has lost, it's almost physically painful.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. Some 20 years ago you got screwed out of a company you helped build, then watched from the sidelines as that company had its best cow sold to some huckster for a box of magic beans. The cow was the look-and-feel of the Macintosh operating system, the huckster was Bill Gates, and the box of magic beans was the agreement to keep making Microsoft Office for Macintosh. This idiotic deal with the devil, which Apple tried and failed to get out of, changed the course of computer history.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. You came back to the company, stopped the bleeding, and began the long, steady task of rebuilding. Finally, after 7 long years, you're back to that cross-roads and you're ready to take the road less travelled. You've got their attention, you've got the $500 machine, and to top it all off, you've got a big middle finger to give to Redmond — an office suite you might have well named "iCall your bluff."

Imagine being Steve Jobs. You're up on stage, all eyes are on you, all lenses are focused on you. You've got your revenge behind a black cloth. You've got your ultimate triumph, your "I can die now" moment, behind a coy "one more thing." You're ready for the cover of Time, the front page of the paper, the TV news. You're ready to let the world know you've come back and this time you're ready to fight.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. Everyone is yawning. Your triumph, your revenge, your "I can die now" moment is old news. Some ******* leaked it to a website, and it made its way from the rumor community to the fan community to the technical press to the mainstream press to Wall street. Everyone knows; they've known for two weeks. All the years of dreaming, driving, and fighting and it's not a bang, but a whimper.

Imagine being Steve Jobs. Really stop to imagine how much it must hurt, how you feel, and rightly so, that something has been stolen from you.

Excellent post and re-quoting in its entirety in case someone missed it.

I posted this earlier but I think it bears repeating. Too many in here are thinking and posting as consumers and give no thought to sound business principles.

I am the VP of Sales and Marketing for the Internet division of my company. We are the Microsoft in terms of market share but I run my business as if we were the Apple. And I'm not afraid to admit it, I use many of the same tactics as Apple does . And I'm proud to say they work. 2003 broke all kinds of records for us. 2004 was even better, revenue up 82%, sales up 55% and GP up 32%.

 

[BobVB]

Since it is being done in California, Apple will most likely apply the California Trade Secrets Laws.Since Apple with most likely say that unreleased products are trade secrets, they may opt to hold a criminal charge over TS's head.

Does that mean I could file to be a one man corporation and declare the details of any extramarital activities 'trade secrets' and file criminal charges against anyone that divulged anything about them?

If not when did corporations start having more rights than real people? Real citizens are more important than made up ones aren't they?

 

[lalcan]

If you ask me, TS was just asking for it... And god knows they deserve to be punished.

 

[Mandril Design]

The other constitutional protection

Speaking from the standpoint of one who went to journalism school and successfully fought more than one legal challenge on constitutional grounds, I can tell you one thing for sure: The First Amendment has its limits, and one of those limits is another constitutionally protected right — the right to privacy.

So yes, in a very real sense, if I had a website called "Bob rumors" and published information about your extramarital affairs, you could sue me, and would probably win.

The law is a lot more complicated, and a lot more a case of this balancing that balancing the other, than most people realize. That is, for instance, why the government can't sue you for libel.

BTW, I want to apologize in advance if anyone took my last post as an attack. I meant "you" in a strictly rhetorical sense.

 

[bree]

Does that mean I could file to be a one man corporation and declare the details of any extramarital activities 'trade secrets' and file criminal charges against anyone that divulged anything about them?

If not when did corporations start having more rights than real people? Real citizens are more important than made up ones aren't they?

Well, i have this GREATTT product that makes succeeding in your extramarital affairs a lot easier. I'll sell it to you! But wait.. megacompany X stole my product information and now is making it cheaper in china.
Trade secrets apply to PRODUCTS that make money, and preserves competitiveness by not allowing others to steal your stuff.

Private individuals have just that, privacy, and laws protecting it. Corporations have their own set of privacy laws, of which trade secrets are one. Its not 'more rights'.. its just a different set of rights which wouldn't make sense to apply to individuals.

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Not necessarily. There is a whole field (competitive intelligence aka business intelligence) devoted to getting information on competitors without breaking the law. Essentially, it involves assembling numerous bits of legitimately acquired information into a big picture. The problem is that this is slow, painstaking, and expensive work. For that reason, not every company does it. And because of the high risks, few companies take illegal shortcuts.

Inciting someone to violate their NDA is a huge, and illegal, shortcut. By doing that and publishing the results for all to see, Think Secret does the dirty work for competitors.

If the competitors are really good at their CI, they have similar info well ahead of TS's report. In that case, the report confirms their work (in CI, confirmation from an independent source is a holy grail). TS has therefore helped damage Apple in this scenario.

On the other hand, maybe Apple is good at staying stealthy until things are almost ready to go, and then accurate info starts leaking out. In that case, CI would be largely ineffective for Apple competitors...if it weren't for TS handing them stuff on a silver platter. Even two weeks can be critical, as it's enough time for competitors to cook up ways to steal Apple's thunder. In this scenario, TS also damages Apple.

Working in an industry that has NDA's (the photographic industry), I understand the need for NDA's. First there is the aspect of spilling the beans on pricing strategy, the iMac mini may fall into this realm, but is geared towards rebates and price drops as well as new products that break new pricing ground for the brand. Then you have the NDA's that affect future technology that may or may not see the light of day.

What I see is that Apple is pursuing the former than the later. Given the operations of Apple this makes sense. As I said before, look at the hit that Apple stock took with leaks that there was not going to be a PB update, or delays in the G5 iMac. Sure they rebounded, but who is to say what their stock could have been without the leak.

You are so right about the time needed to steal thunder. A company does not even need a viable product. Just a promise of such a product. In the case of the iMac mini, the PC vendors have now been given two weeks to look at ways to reduce their costs, or even change their form factors to meet the new challenge from Apple. Even they lag three to six months behind Apple.

 

[elgruga]

any chance this is all just another part of the pre-announcement circus, designed to whip all the rumor junkies into a frenzy so that we tell everyone we know about stuff that may be coming out in a week, thus providing apple with a larger audience of interest?

EVERY chance!

 

[Chip NoVaMac]

Gee.. I was going to write up the same subject matter, but you said it better than I could.

I'd like to add a little something though. For those who cite the first amendment... technically it only applies to congress (congress shall make no laws... ) and not the press. Although there is a tradition of protection for the press, there are actually legal definitions of what makes somebody 'press'. I doubt ThinkSecret can be defined as press in this manner.
Furthermore, rumors != trade secrets. Reporting rumors is in the nature of "the talk around the water cooler says"... reporting trade secrets is of the nature of "sources inside the company are revealing corporate information.."
Huge difference.

You hit on a good subject. In that Congress does not pass certain laws to restrict the flow of information. That it is the agencies that are meant to protect ALL of us that set "rules" in place. There is fine line between rules and law.

 

[Benj]

You're obviously not a lawyer.

......

Legally speaking, Think Secret is done. And the person behind it, unless he/she is very wealthy, is done too. LLC shield's do not apply for criminal activity, so Apple will have the ability to go after the individual's assets too. But they don't need to really since a case like this will cost $250K-$1M to defend yourself against.

And nor are you!

This is just one example, but a lot of people are confusing the civil and criminal law. Think Secret are not doing anything criminal, the Apple employee MIGHT be doing something criminal.

A tort (which TS's actions might be) is a civil wrong, not a criminal one.

That all said and done, I'm not an US lawyer but I do know that Apple would really struggle to get any relief in the English courts for this (and the law is essentially the same in both jurisdictions). It all looks like scare tactics to get TS to hand over some names and/or to plug the leaks.

 

[Benj]

Private individuals have just that, privacy, and laws protecting it. Corporations have their own set of privacy laws, of which trade secrets are one. Its not 'more rights'.. its just a different set of rights which wouldn't make sense to apply to individuals.

A corporation's right to privacy only extends to people who owe the company a duty of confidence. TS don't. We'd all be in trouble if this wasn't the case.

Would it be a good thing if Enron could have sued somebody for revealing that they were a bunch of (literal) cowboys? Or Microsoft could have shut doen any reporting of their interesting IE practices?

 

[bree]

A corporation's right to privacy only extends to people who owe the company a duty of confidence. TS don't. We'd all be in trouble if this wasn't the case.

Would it be a good thing if Enron could have sued somebody for revealing that they were a bunch of (literal) cowboys? Or Microsoft could have shut doen any reporting of their interesting IE practices?

Trade secrets == products. Business practices are usually not included. There are other corporate privacy rules that might apply to your argument, but they are outside of this area of discussion.
While ThinkSecret did not directly violate trade secrets, Apple is suing them for encouraging, and fostering the violation of trade secrets. Roughly comparable to 'aiding and abetting'.

 

[BobVB]

Speaking from the standpoint of one who went to journalism school and successfully fought more than one legal challenge on constitutional grounds, I can tell you one thing for sure: The First Amendment has its limits, and one of those limits is another constitutionally protected right — the right to privacy.

So yes, in a very real sense, if I had a website called "Bob rumors" and published information about your extramarital affairs, you could sue me, and would probably win.

But we aren't talking about You, we are talking about a journalistic publication. If the Seattle Times wrote an article about my extra marital affairs on a weekly basis, would I have any real hope of successfully suing them for invasion of privacy, even if I had unlimited funds for parasites, I mean lawyers?

 

[Peter9]

Man, this is terrible news for MacRumors because they get all of their news, secrets, and rumors from them

 

[Benj]

Trade secrets == products. Business practices are usually not included. There are other corporate privacy rules that might apply to your argument, but they are outside of this area of discussion.
While ThinkSecret did not directly violate trade secrets, Apple is suing them for encouraging, and fostering the violation of trade secrets. Roughly comparable to 'aiding and abetting'.

But aiding and abetting is a criminal offence. What is the crime here?

Apple may possibly have a case if they can prove that TS has actually been offering cash to people to hand over the info. And has been actively soliciting.

Apple should try and put its own house in order before it goes after anyone else.

 

[Rower_CPU]

TS finally issues a statement

"We're confident that Think Secret's reporting is consistent with the right and privileges granted by the First Amendment," dePlume wrote. "The complaint is being reviewed, and Think Secret defers further comment until it has been analyzed."

Looks like they're playing it safe while they talk to their lawyers.

 

[bobajoul]

United States of Apple

I guess Apple now supercedes the First Amendment. This is just an attempt to hype their products. People go to these sites because they care about Apple, I doubt there is a ThinkSecret for Dell or Dellrumors. No one gets excited about an appliance. That is what Dell is , a refrigerator.

 

[iJWC]

Due Process

There is a thing called : Procedural Due Process. TS will have their day in court, if it gets that far, and Apple has to prove it. Some of you have TS convicted already. We'll see how this plays out but it's not a slam dunk yet.

 

[Maestro64]

This sucks.

I dont like the idea of them suing rumor mills and fan sites. I dont like them suing college kids who shared tiger.

This is totally not the counterculture feel that i want my fav company to have

Heat Break Kid,

I hate to inform you, but that college kid was an Apple Developer who signed an agreement not to disclose of share any information he got from Apple prior to them officially releasing the information themselves. Every time a developer downloads from the WWD site they agree not to share that information.

It was no surprise they knew who he was so fast and did not file a Joe Doe suite against him until they could find out. I was not hard, all they had to do is look at their own IP download logs and compare it the lone seeder of the Tiger torrent to see it was one of their own developers who sharing the information.

I tell you this, the person deserves everything that happens to him. It most likely will cost him his enrollment at the college, as well as legal fees and fines. A smart way to kill your career before it even get started.

If Apple was going the way of M$ they would have gone after the developer who seeded the Tiger CD they gave out for free last summer. It was within 24 hours of the WWDC the torrent showed up from some person's hotel room at the WWDC seeding the CD. Guess what, they didn't, why, because it did not make sense since they gave them out to anyone who walked in the door for free.

 

[salmon]

OK, there seems to be enough postings by people who sound reasonably comfortable in their knowledge of the appropraiet laws to convince me that TS is quite likely in the wrong here - except for two things:

What exactly is the legal definition of a "Trade Secret"? A Coca-Cola formula this is not, it's information about a product, all of which will be public knowledge. Or it's false, and therefore just a rumor. It's not a key to the vault, like source code for Apple's GUI. Sure, it might have an effect on stock prices because of the news dissemination, but trade secret??? If anything, it seems it could be argued as a stock manipulation tactic.

And, if the argument about journalistic ethics (HA! - but that's another thread) is valid, what about the myriad of news sites that subsequently reported the same information? They obviously didn't corraborate from multiple sources, and they were publishing the same "trade secrets".

I agree though about the rumors part - I'd rather them just be vague rumors, makes the keynotes more interesting.

IANAL

 

[evilernie]

Avatar

OT, but speaking of avatars, what is yours? It creeps me out, looks like Jean Bene Ramsey (sp?).

That's not Jean Benet Ramsey, that's playboy playmate Lynda Wiesmeier...

Personally, I couldn't care less about a cheap Mac (other than the good it might do for the company).

Bring on the G5 powerbook.