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The touchbar reportedly took 2-3 years to develop. So it's not that Apple is slacking, but that some forms of innovation simply require more time before they can bear fruit.

Yep, some things need the technology or price point or market, or a combo, to hit a sweet spot.

I don't think the TouchBar took long though. When they say 2-3 years, that doesn't mean concentrated research and development. At least I sure hope not, or they really are slackers. They mean years of toying with the idea, until someone green lighted the project.

In reality, once decided upon as a production item, something as simple as the TouchBar should take months, not years.

Heck, once it was finally decided that the iPhone should use multi-touch, it took less than a year and half from dedicated project start to production, and cost less than $150 million to develop. Now that's getting a good ROI on R&D!

Under Cook's six years of being CEO, Apple has spent billions on R&D, searching for the next elusive hit. Which is okay; heck they have the money. But it's nothing to brag about, when compared to what their previous R&D efforts have created with so little.

After all, did the iPad not take 7 years from when it was first conceived by Steve Jobs to when it was released.

Again, not really, since 1) there wasn't really a tablet project to start with... just unrelated case designs and multi-touch demos... and 2) the idea of doing a tablet wasn't seriously invested in until after the iPhone was a success.

My point being, that it doesn't necessarily take years or lots of expensive R&D to build a new and popular product. Apple's recent history is proof of that. Hmm. Which usually involves them entering a market about to take off. What do you think is the next big thing? Personally, I wish they'd get into robots.
 
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Value is measured by what a consumer is willing to sacrifice to acquire the product which is some combination of money, opportunity cost, etc.

The total value of a product is the value added by the final producer plus the value of the components and labor that make up the producers costs.

That is one way to define "value''. That is not the way I used it, nor the way I see it. A product's "value" is whatever a purchaser deems it to be. In this sense, the term refers to what the person buy deems the device "worth it" or "not worth it". It is independent of quality, market value, popular opinion, etc. The individual makes that determination at the point of sale.

Profit is a measure of how much value the producer has added to the product.

So being more profitable does mean you have produced a "better" product, not anecdotally based on individual testimony, but broadly as judged by the market. The vendors who are losing money have basically destroyed value-- the market values what they are selling less than the parts and labor that went into it.

I flatly disagree with this, from the perspective I am speaking from. From the business perspective, sure. But I don't buy individual devices based on the "business" opinion, or company-profits. I buy based on anecdotal, and first-hand, personal experience. That is where the truth of quality vs popularity lies. For example, the single greatest tool in a shopper's arsenal is Amazon's review system. I do not purchase anything without seeing what people say regarding a product, both good and bad. I don't go looking into a company's profit spreadsheet or accounting audits.

What is the specific thing that Apple is doing? I think that's the wrong question in a product as feature rich as a smartphone and its surrounding ecosystem. Saying there's things that an iPhone can't do is beside the point. What Apple has done is find the best balance of everything.

Saying that there are things that the iPhone can't do that I want to is the ONLY question to ask, from a customer standpoint. It's MY money, I'm going to put it where I feel it'll better serve ME. What Apple has done is find the best marketing team to sell their "good-enough" products. But I'm looking for the best.


The other thing here is that Samsung is also a component manufacturer, so some of the profits from the iPhone and others is showing up on Samsung's bottom line via a different division. That's part of the total value of the product that isn't showing up in the mobile phone profits for either Apple or Samsung.

When you buy an iPhone, part of what you're buying is memory, and part is the display, etc. When Samsung produces a more valuable component than their competitors, Apple uses it in the iPhone and that part of the iPhone value doesn't show up in Apple's profits (or in Samsung's mobile division profits) but in Samsung's semiconductor or display technology division profits.

What that means is that when Samsung's mobile division is only showing 0.9% of the industry profit, that doesn't mean that Samsung as a whole doesn't see more benefit than that. What it means is that consumers don't value Samsung's phone much more than they value the components that went into it-- but they still value Samsung's components. Samsung may be perfectly happy with the fact that they are basically using their phone as a conduit to sell more parts.

None of this answers my question. How does Apple make such profits, given that they neither sell the most phones, nor make the best ones?

I think it's simply because it is a monopoly. Only Apple makes iPhones. So they can charge whatever they want for a device that is not (really) superior to their competitors. When you compare them against individual competitors, they look great. But the competitors are splitting the profits of the much, much larger pie.

In other words, it's all smoke and mirrors. The only way to tell if Apple is losing ground is to measure it against itself.
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It's quite simple:

Apple makes A LOT of money on every phone they sell.

Meanwhile... the other guys tend to lose money on every phone they sell.

That's the basic difference between Apple and the other guys.
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It may be interesting... but it shouldn't be a primary focus for developers.

The iPhone has NEVER had a significant amount of market share across the entire smartphone industry. It peaked at about 20% market share a few years ago... but it's below 15% today.

Yet look at all the developers who build apps for the iPhone. Some of them only build apps for the iPhone.

If market share really mattered to developers... no one would have ever built apps for the iPhone since it has always been SIGNIFICANTLY behind other platforms in term of market share. And yet the iPhone ecosystem is actually quite massive.

You have to look at other factors to explain why.

While the iPhone represents a smaller percentage of the broader smartphone market... iPhone USERS actually spend a lot of money on apps and things.

And THAT'S what developers, accessory makers, and other 3rd-party companies are interested in: the money they'll make from iPhone users.

Not raw market share.

Think about it. The iPhone is at 12.1% market share right now. Low number, right?

So do you think it would make sense for Uber to discontinue their iPhone app because the iPhone doesn't have enough market share?

Hell no! Many (most?) of Uber's customers are using iPhones.

So to Uber... the iPhone's "low market share" isn't a factor.

And this would be true for any up-and-coming developer too.

Hell... there were probably 100 apps submitted to the iPhone app store as I typed this comment. Those developers obviously aren't concerned that the iPhone only has 12.1% market share at the moment.

Again... it's not the market share number itself... it's what that market share can produce.

And the iPhone has always been able to produce great results for developers.

The issue here is that the iPhone market share is shrinking. So at some point it'll start to matter. It's just hard to determine when that is.

But I figure the math like this:

100% of Apple's 10% of the market spends $10
30% of Android's 90% of the market spending $10 ( a third of the Android market spending the same as Apple)

Market:100 people
Apple: 10
Android: 90
Apple 10 * $10 = $100
Android: 27 * $10 = $270

So, you better develop for both platforms, and Android has the most opportunity for growth.
 
You don't sound like one, and I‘m not confused. I’m actually not bad at math and I can totally see how the figures are arrived at with ease. In fact even if I had a degree in maths, it doesn't change the fact that this method of looking at things is there for the purpose of making somebodys figures suit an agenda.
It’s like statistics, you can make them say whatever you want and still be right.

The only decision I see to make here is what to use as a baseline for "all smartphone profits". It should be all profits, with losses taken as negative profits and subtracted.

Those saying it should be the sum of just the positive-profiting companies, with those showing a loss left out, don't seem to be considering how each of those companies arrived at their profit value when totaling their internal division's profits. If they had used that positive-only method they'd be fooling themselves: they could have a big money-losing division and still think they're making a profit. Some accountant would be summarily fired.
 
That is one way to define "value''. That is not the way I used it, nor the way I see it. A product's "value" is whatever a purchaser deems it to be. In this sense, the term refers to what the person buy deems the device "worth it" or "not worth it". It is independent of quality, market value, popular opinion, etc. The individual makes that determination at the point of sale.

I flatly disagree with this, from the perspective I am speaking from. From the business perspective, sure. But I don't buy individual devices based on the "business" opinion, or company-profits. I buy based on anecdotal, and first-hand, personal experience. That is where the truth of quality vs popularity lies. For example, the single greatest tool in a shopper's arsenal is Amazon's review system. I do not purchase anything without seeing what people say regarding a product, both good and bad. I don't go looking into a company's profit spreadsheet or accounting audits.

And your implication is that people who buy Apple products don't? What makes you think that the consumer who shops for an iPhone or iPad or MacBook Pro doesn't exercise the same degree of care in making his purchase, considering that they tend to cost more than the next best alternative?

I too do my fair share of research by watching early YouTube reviews and reading online coverage.

Saying that there are things that the iPhone can't do that I want to is the ONLY question to ask, from a customer standpoint. It's MY money, I'm going to put it where I feel it'll better serve ME. What Apple has done is find the best marketing team to sell their "good-enough" products. But I'm looking for the best.

And it's well within your right not to get an iPhone. That the iPhone has 12% market share shows that 88% of the world agreed with your sentiment in one way or another.

What that also means is that 12% of the world evidently felt that the iPhone represented the "best" smartphone for them, whatever that may mean to them. And 12% of the world's population is still a very large number in an absolute sense. Well enough to make Apple one of the biggest companies in the entire world, not forgetting that each iPhone sold this way is very expensive (and profitable).

None of this answers my question. How does Apple make such profits, given that they neither sell the most phones, nor make the best ones?

I think it's simply because it is a monopoly. Only Apple makes iPhones. So they can charge whatever they want for a device that is not (really) superior to their competitors. When you compare them against individual competitors, they look great. But the competitors are splitting the profits of the much, much larger pie.

In other words, it's all smoke and mirrors. The only way to tell if Apple is losing ground is to measure it against itself.
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The answer has always been right in front of you. The question is whether you have the heart for the truth and the will to see it.

First, Apple undeniably sells the greatest number of high-end smartphones, which is pretty much the only segment that is bringing in any sort of meaningful profit. Don't blame Apple for this. Blame the rest of the competition for not being to earn a single cent off the products they sell.

Second, there is no one absolute "best" smartphone, only a smartphone which best meets the individual user's needs. Refer to my earlier comment above about 12% iPhone market share being a huge enough number to make Apple immensely profitable and you have your answer.

Third, you are right that iOS is a monopoly, and that's besides the point. Blackberry ran proprietary software; that didn't stop the company from tanking because their products simply sucked. If the iPhone sucked, nobody would buy it, proprietary or not.

Last, I agree with you that the iPhone's biggest competitor is always the iPhone that came out before it, because they are just so good. Android is nowhere close to even becoming a viable competitor as far as I am concerned.

The issue here is that the iPhone market share is shrinking. So at some point it'll start to matter. It's just hard to determine when that is.

But I figure the math like this:

100% of Apple's 10% of the market spends $10
30% of Android's 90% of the market spending $10 ( a third of the Android market spending the same as Apple)

Market:100 people
Apple: 10
Android: 90
Apple 10 * $10 = $100
Android: 27 * $10 = $270

So, you better develop for both platforms, and Android has the most opportunity for growth.
Your numbers paint an oversimplified picture which fails to take many factors into account.

1) Piracy - the developer of Monument Valley estimated that over 90% of Android users who played his game downloaded it illegally. The iOS store is not free of piracy, but the incidence is much lower. What use is a huge install base if nobody is willing to pay for your app?

2) Not all Android phones are made equal. Lower end phones may not be capable of running more taxing software. That dramatically reduces your potential install base right there.

3) Effort - optimising for a few iOS devices with known specs vs having to optimise for the myriad of android devices out in the wild. Developers are making more money on Android with less effort.

4) Shrinking iPhone market share conveniently ignores the fact that the number of iPhone users is still increasing in an absolute sense. More than enough to sustain and support a thriving ecosystem of apps and accessories.

5) Market share doesn't necessarily mean install base. A recent article by stratechery pegs the number of Android devices in active use at 1 billion, and iOS at 600k. This means the active market share of iOS is closer to 40%, not the dismal 12% painted by analysts. So you will definitely have to rework all your numbers.

In short, developers will still release apps for Android. But unless the narrative changes dramatically overnight, they will continue to flock to where the money is by releasing apps for iOS first or exclusively, and ensuring that those apps remain the most optimised and the best in class.

As a happy iOS user, I cannot ask for anything more.
 
Correct me if i'm wrong here, but as long as Samsung and other brands is part of the smartphone business / market and sell smartphones, then Apple can't have more than 100% of the smartphone profits. If Apple would have 100% of the smartphone profit, that means Samsung and the other brands has to earn 0 dollars where Apple is the only smartphone company that earns money.

Because let's say that Samsung was the only company with Apple to earn money by selling smartphones where Samsung only would earn 10000 dollar which means an insanely low profit margin for Samsung here. That alone would take Apple's profit down from 100% down to something like 99.99999999%.

Yes, if Apple have 100% of the profits in the smartphone market, then that means that all other brands have 0 profits or 0 money income. But everyone knows that's not the case, so how can someone earn 104% of a profit when that can't go over 100%?
 
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The only decision I see to make here is what to use as a baseline for "all smartphone profits". It should be all profits, with losses taken as negative profits and subtracted.

Those saying it should be the sum of just the positive-profiting companies, with those showing a loss left out, don't seem to be considering how each of those companies arrived at their profit value when totaling their internal division's profits. If they had used that positive-only method they'd be fooling themselves: they could have a big money-losing division and still think they're making a profit. Some accountant would be summarily fired.
Maybe but it’s still massaging figures and boardroom talk.
There is only a finite amount of profit available in any industry. Fact. You cannot take in more than that finite amount. Fact.
They need to be straight up in the way those facts are presented, they can do what they have done up until now but, actually - please see post 269 which explains why the method you seem to favour makes sense only when you want it to.
 
Maybe but it’s still massaging figures and boardroom talk.
There is only a finite amount of profit available in any industry. Fact. You cannot take in more than that finite amount. Fact.
They need to be straight up in the way those facts are presented, they can do what they have done up until now but, actually - please see post 269 which explains why the method you seem to favour makes sense only when you want it to.

Sure, there's a finite amount of profit available, but nothing says it all has to be positive. One part of it can be greater than the sum, and that's the case here. It's a matter of understanding that a loss is equivalent to a negative profit. If losses are left out (as you seem to want) then it doesn't add up correctly. A percentage based on that would be wrong, as would be seen more clearly if the losses were greater.

It really is not massaging figures-- it's standard accounting practice (and standard math, for that matter). If it weren't, businesses would have a hell of time figuring out their own profits!
 
Sure, there's a finite amount of profit available, but nothing says it all has to be positive. One part of it can be greater than the sum, and that's the case here. It's a matter of understanding that a loss is equivalent to a negative profit. If losses are left out (as you seem to want) then it doesn't add up correctly. A percentage based on that would be wrong, as would be seen more clearly if the losses were greater.

It really is not massaging figures-- it's standard accounting practice (and standard math, for that matter). If it weren't, businesses would have a hell of time figuring out their own profits!
Ok, let’s leave it here as we’ll obviously have to agree to disagree. Profit by definition is positive. There are other ways to put things without financial analysts and accountants deliberately confusing the situation. Businesses would have no trouble at all figuring out profits even without having the luxury of BS.
 
Correct me if i'm wrong here, but as long as Samsung and other brands is part of the smartphone business / market and sell smartphones, then Apple can't have more than 100% of the smartphone profits. If Apple would have 100% of the smartphone profit, that means Samsung and the other brands has to earn 0 dollars where Apple is the only smartphone company that earns money.

Because let's say that Samsung was the only company with Apple to earn money by selling smartphones where Samsung only would earn 10000 dollar which means an insanely low profit margin for Samsung here. That alone would take Apple's profit down from 100% down to something like 99.99999999%.

Yes, if Apple have 100% of the profits in the smartphone market, then that means that all other brands have 0 profits or 0 money income. But everyone knows that's not the case, so how can someone earn 104% of a profit when that can't go over 100%?
Regardless, the number paint a pretty bleak picture for any smartphone company not called "Apple". By the figures, LG would have been better off just using the money to invest in bonds and living off the dividends, rather than eke out a measly 1.4 cents of profit per smartphone sold.

Do you really want to argue that Apple should have only 99% of the smartphone profits instead of 104%, or focus on the bigger picture at hand?
 
Last, I agree with you that the iPhone's biggest competitor is always the iPhone that came out before it, because they are just so good. Android is nowhere close to even becoming a viable competitor as far as I am concerned.

Brilliant, so the s7 edge is just a so so combination of ok hardware with substandard software? Lol.. bless, you sir are adorable...

Plus, what percentage of worldwide market share would be needed before you considered it viable? 95% ?
 
Brilliant, so the s7 edge is just a so so combination of ok hardware with substandard software? Lol.. bless, you sir are adorable...

Plus, what percentage of worldwide market share would be needed before you considered it viable? 95% ?
No, it's more that the iPhone leverages unique software to sell highly-diffentiated physical devices with a high profit margin. The S7, however you try to market it as such, is ultimately still Android at the core.

And it's not Android's market share in a vacuum, but usage share. It's not about how many Android users there are out in the wild, but how many of them are willing to pay good money for quality software, much less capable of it.

Ulysses recently came to iOS as a $25 word editor app, partly to take advantage of the iPad Pro and its renewed emphasis on mobile productivity. How many Android users do you think will actually pay for such an app?

It's a solved problem for Apple. We iOS users have the culture of being willing to pay for quality apps, and are in turn rewarded by developers who demonstrate more care in crafting their apps and making an effort to optimise their apps for our platform. And it will be the case regardless of what market share iOS has. I myself have probably spent close to a thousand dollars on apps alone (mostly on paid productivity apps), and I will continue to do so when a new app is released which catches my fancy and I think it is useful.

So the question you should be asking is not what market share of Android is needed, but what needs to be done to get more Android users to actually be willing to pay (and pay more) for software. Apple makes this possible by locking down the app store so most users who want an app will have to pay for it the old-fashioned way and actually making an effort to vet apps and purge errant ones as they surface, compared to Android where users can sideload any app they wish.
 
Ok, let’s leave it here as we’ll obviously have to agree to disagree. Profit by definition is positive. There are other ways to put things without financial analysts and accountants deliberately confusing the situation. Businesses would have no trouble at all figuring out profits even without having the luxury of BS.

If you want to define profit to only be positive, what do you call the value that is summed which includes both profit and loss? That's the value that would be called profit after the losses have been subtracted (if it's positive), or loss (if it's negative). Whatever you'd like to call that signed value, it's the value being talked about here-- the baseline for the percentage. To consider only the positive values in a set would be misleading (and useless for business).
 
No, it's more that the iPhone leverages unique software to sell highly-diffentiated physical devices with a high profit margin. The S7, however you try to market it as such, is ultimately still Android at the core.

And it's not Android's market share in a vacuum, but usage share. It's not about how many Android users there are out in the wild, but how many of them are willing to pay good money for quality software, much less capable of it.

Ulysses recently came to iOS as a $25 word editor app, partly to take advantage of the iPad Pro and its renewed emphasis on mobile productivity. How many Android users do you think will actually pay for such an app?

It's a solved problem for Apple. We iOS users have the culture of being willing to pay for quality apps, and are in turn rewarded by developers who demonstrate more care in crafting their apps and making an effort to optimise their apps for our platform. And it will be the case regardless of what market share iOS has. I myself have probably spent close to a thousand dollars on apps alone (mostly on paid productivity apps), and I will continue to do so when a new app is released which catches my fancy and I think it is useful.

So the question you should be asking is not what market share of Android is needed, but what needs to be done to get more Android users to actually be willing to pay (and pay more) for software. Apple makes this possible by locking down the app store so most users who want an app will have to pay for it the old-fashioned way and actually making an effort to vet apps and purge errant ones as they surface, compared to Android where users can sideload any app they wish.

Pretentious much? Moi?
 
If you want to define profit to only be positive, what do you call the value that is summed which includes both profit and loss? That's the value that would be called profit after the losses have been subtracted (if it's positive), or loss (if it's negative). Whatever you'd like to call that signed value, it's the value being talked about here-- the baseline for the percentage. To consider only the positive values in a set would be misleading (and useless for business).
I thought we’d agreed to disagree, (did you look at post 269)?
 
Even if the note hadn't been recalled Samsung only would have made like 5% of the smartphone profits. Apple is the only handset maker that doesn't sell a single device at a loss, (which is how a business is supposed to be run) so they make all the money with their tiny slice of the market share. It's called winning.

Definitely Apple has the ability to generate profit by selling Mobiles at higher margins...Good Business for sure; no one will sell a product at loss but in the Android World, possibly with heavy competition, with smart consumers around, it may be very difficult to charge hefty premium to sustain in the business.

Apple - Smart Enterprise
Android - Smart Consumers
 
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Truth? Lol, you have spouted nothing but your own koolaid inspired biased self beliefs.. doesn't for one second make them fact.
Is it not fact that the iOS App Store is bringing in more revenue than the google play store? Is it not fact that apps tend to be released for iOS first? Is it not fact that the profits of many android OEMs are circling the toilet?

Then by all means refute them. I challenge you.
 
If someone told you that 2+2 = 5, would you just agree to disagree? Or would you kindly correct them?
Hey listen, no harm done and you’ve not corrected me. What you have done I notice is avoid the question about post 269. It’s all fine to have different opinions. Have a good day.
 
The issue here is that the iPhone market share is shrinking. So at some point it'll start to matter. It's just hard to determine when that is.

But I figure the math like this:

100% of Apple's 10% of the market spends $10
30% of Android's 90% of the market spending $10 ( a third of the Android market spending the same as Apple)

Market:100 people
Apple: 10
Android: 90
Apple 10 * $10 = $100
Android: 27 * $10 = $270

So, you better develop for both platforms, and Android has the most opportunity for growth.

As an actual developer, working for a company that actually makes good money with iOS and Android apps, I can tell you that it isn't so. The number of Android users willing to part from their money is smaller. Not the percentage, but the absolute number.

Plus there is a bigger variation of devices in the Android world, creating more work. Right now, you can either write for iOS 7 and it works everywhere from iPhone 4 upwards, or you write for iOS 9 and it works everywhere from iPhone 4s upwards.

And excuse me, but if the iPhone has 10% market share and Android has 90%, then clearly iPhone has nine times more room for growth :)
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Winning on someone's bad luck and misfortune does not make you the best! It just makes you lucky...
Tim Cook...foolish...macbook pro.

Are you serious claiming that Samsung's Note 7 debacle was just "bad luck"? And the fact that iPhones don't explode is due to luck?
 
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**** appple garbage ass phones


^^^ This guy's life is so sad that on a Sunday the best he can do is register an account on MacRumors to share these insightful comments. What an absolute loser.
 
Hey listen, no harm done and you’ve not corrected me. What you have done I notice is avoid the question about post 269. It’s all fine to have different opinions. Have a good day.

I have looked at post 269, and there's a serious problem with that method: taking positive profits and negative losses as two separate totals falls apart as soon as you realize that each company may have both types internally and at many reporting levels. Using your second example but splitting Samsung into two reporting divisions, one very profitable and one slightly more unprofitable, gives the same industry sum but quite different percentages:

Apple makes $10
Samsung A makes $1000000
Samsung B loses $1000010
HTC loses $20
-----------------
Sum -$20

Apple made 10/(10+1000000) = 0.001% of the industry profits?
Samsung A made 1000000/(10+1000000) = 99.999% of the industry profits?
Samsung B had 1000010/(10+1000000) = 99.998% of the industry losses?
HTC had 20/(10+1000000) = 0.002% of the industry losses?

If this were a useful method, you have to wonder why companies don't keep track of and report separate total profits and total losses.
 
Apple spends little on R&D relative to revenue. From the tech giants, Samsung spends the most on R&D.

Notably, in the same year that Microsoft spent 13.9% of sales on R&D, Apple managed to spend only 3.3% on R&D. And it shows....

In fact, Apple is nowhere to be seen among the top dozen R&D spenders:

Biggest-Research-Spenders-2014.jpg


The uptick in Apple's R&D spending was largely focused on the now dead Project Titan ('An incredible failure of leadership': Apple's car project seems wracked with internal strife) and on the Apple Watch ("Apple Watch is a FLOP: Sales of the gadget have fallen by 90%...").

An incredible failure of leadership, indeed. But marketing still seems to work. Past laurels eventually wilt, however....

This makes Apple smarter than Apple Consumers whereas in the case of Samsung/Google/MS, Consumers have become smarter and make their Brand sweat !!!

Apple will be laughing their Bank Account with, why do we even need to spend that much on R&D when our user base is loyal to whatever we produce.
 
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