Apple Takes on Droid X With Latest Smartphone Antenna Video

[Max(IT)]

I hate to say that because I really wanted to believe that they were better. Being a long time Windows user, I always thought that Apple products were better, but couldn't afford them.

I got my first iPhone 3g two years ago, and that really impressed me, further adding to my belief that Apple products were superior. Now, that I can afford them, I got an iPad, and upgraded to iPhone 4, and my experience has continued to go down from there. Limitations every time you turn, backed by excuses. My recent experience with Apple support didn’t help as well.

They Genius squad or whatever they call themselves (LOL) act as if you are a 8 year old and never seen a computer before. Not to fault them, I now believe that is who they are used to dealing with, and to those people they do indeed seem like a genius. This prompted me to researched Apple products more, and what I've learned was the ones that LOVE Apple and defend their endless excuses and limitations are people who are very limited when it comes to computers. They only do very specific tasks like check email, write a letter or article, or they are brand new to computers and fear them. Not to say they are not smart people, but when it comes to computers they are rocks and tend to need handholding. I say that because I know a lot of smart people that use Macs, but don’t ask them to set up an email account. They wouldn’t know where to start. They just know how to type an email, look at a picture, and can barely search the web. I also know technical people like graphic designers, but that’s extent of what they do on computers.

It's like someone that has never traveled outside their home town and believe their way of life is the only way. They just don’t know better.

I can understand why Steve Jobs is so defensive now. Apple product are just another pc except more limited in function. The do however comes with an abundance of excuses.

good for you: return to Windows, where you belong
Bye bye

What he is trying to say is that some people (read average user, so most people) are just using email or whatever on their iphones; and what apple is showing is for those people exactly. Because they know that there is very little people with more knowledge, they know that we, the "smart" people won't do much about it. They don't give a ****. They got their money from 3mil ip4s sold. I hate this world, but hey, this is how this world works...

Unfortunately, everybody "swallowed" the free bumper program and the antennagate got quiet.

Ohh, all those videos from apple, covering phone with their hands is just PATHETIC!

opsss, another "jun/jul2010" newbie spreading FUD on the forum ...
Why don't you join your friend in a Windows based forum: there are plenty ...

 

[Journojulz]

Unfortunately, everybody "swallowed" the free bumper program and the antennagate got quiet.

Take the bumper or take the refund.

Anyone still unsatisfied has problems no gadget can sort.

Oh hang on, there is one gadget in the science museum that might....

Just hit Ctrl-Alt-Deliverance

 

[DMann]

Chip/shoulder? I have so far mentioned neither an iPad nor a netbook. An iPad is much closer to a layman's idea of a computer than an iPhone is. A netbook, having an even better input device and more freely "accept[ing] data, perform[ing] prescibed mathematical and logical operations..." is certainly a computer.

Conversely, this ongoing dispute about what, or what doesn't deserve being considered a computer has been perpetuated by the silicon 'chip' upon your own.

The 'chip,' (the one residing inside the iPad, iPhone) processes information, both devices having more than adequate data input, and both sporting high-resolution displays.

Therefore, there is no disputing the fact that both the iPad and iPhone are computers, albeit portable ones.

"No but yes". You're listing three jobs which involve activities for which an iPhone's touch screen is sometimes sufficient. This doesn't mean that it's a suitable general purpose replacement for a keyboard.

That's correct - they're using computers 'on the go.'

You've got something closer to a layperson's "computer", but you still have an inadequate screen and limited control. Meanwhile, a cramped keyboard is still a general purpose input device in the way a 3.5" thumb touch screen is not.

Inadequate? Hardly.

Classify it as a 'pocket' computer, and the term still applies.

Apple are trying hard and, it appears, succeeding in trying to get the public to accept something less than a traditional layperson's computer as an alternative to a computer.

Introducing a highly accessible, responsive, capable, reliable, and portable device, not as an alternative to a desktop computer, but as an extension of one, seems to be a more accurate assessment.

OK, my fault, I started it.

We won't argue that.

 

[Veri]

Conversely, this ongoing dispute about what, or what doesn't deserve being considered a computer has been perpetuated by the silicon 'chip' upon your own.

As long as people are interested enough to answer - and they have been for days - I'm happy to respond. I hope I'm being consistent and not raising any straw men, just illustrating the nature of English.

The 'chip,' (the one residing inside the iPad, iPhone) processes information, both devices having more than adequate data input, and both sporting high-resolution displays. Therefore, there is no disputing the fact that both the iPad and iPhone are computers, albeit portable ones.

cmaier was the first to correctly raise the input/process/output definition of a computer used in the context of information theory. This definition also applies to a mousetrap and isn't used by laypeople. You can test this by finding out how many people consider their mousetraps to be computers (without leading the respondent by asking "is a mousetrap a computer?" - see above).

Classify it as a 'pocket' computer, and the term still applies.

I gave a definite example of a (jacket) pocket computer: the Toshiba Libretto. As well as having a general purpose input device - a physical keyboard - and a reasonable physical screen size (no amount of marketing about "retina screens" is relevant), it is a "PC compatible" with all the freedom to program that entails. It includes a generous range of contemporary I/O ports. The iPhone alone offers none of this.

Introducing a highly accessible, responsive, capable, reliable, and portable device, not as an alternative to a desktop computer, but as an extension of one, seems to be a more accurate assessment.

"A portable device to act as an extension to a desktop computer" seems to be an accurate summary of an iPhone, yes. "Responsive" is significant, and one of the better UI features to come from the iPhone. "Accessible" and "capable" are precisely where iPhone is lacking vs a general-purpose computer.

We won't argue that.

That was a discussion about floating point performance of iPhone vs Cray 1 (lol, Internet). Rather than heading straight for peak MFLOPS (likely allowing us to conclude "iPhone is better for games but Cray 1 is better for science" ) I should have coughed up some real world benchmarks. It's always easy to identify special cases but harder to form a broadly applicable argument.

 

[bobob]

I refer to my iPhone as my pocket computer all the time - - it's the computer I had been dreaming about since the 70's - - and I am thrilled that this computer has finally materialized in my pocket!

 

[Veri]

I refer to my iPhone as my pocket computer all the time - - it's the computer I had been dreaming about since the 70's - - and I am thrilled that this computer has finally materialized in my pocket!

Most people have higher expectations of a computer. For everyone else, there's iPhone.

 

[bobob]

Most people have higher expectations of a computer. For everyone else, there's iPhone.

Oh, I've got my other dream computer at home - - a 27" iMac i5 on a radial articulated arm for my more prosaic tasks - - but nothing beats the supreme practicality and outright joy of having a real computer at hand at all times!

 

[0098386]

Oh, I've got my other dream computer at home - - a 27" iMac i5 on a radial articulated arm for my more prosaic tasks - - but nothing beats the supreme practicality and outright joy of having a real computer at hand at all times!

The iPhone is a real computer? I guess this also means my PSP is a computer (web browser, flash, video and music player, runs games and apps). Also my DS too.

 

[bobob]

The iPhone is a real computer?

Yes.

I guess this also means my PSP is a computer (web browser, flash, video and music player, runs games and apps). Also my DS too.

Yes, though I'll take my iPhone over those two clunky beasts thank-you.




(For those still having trouble with this debate, I think the heart of the disparity in defining the term "computer" is summarized in the article: Old World vs. New World Computing - - it was written about the iPad, but illuminates the broader issue nicely.)

 

[ChazUK]

Moto takes another swipe at Apple:

http://phandroid.com/2010/07/28/mot...uired-in-their-own-tongue-in-cheek-promotion/

When will this all end?

 

[marcfogel]

Moto takes another swipe at Apple:

When will this all end?

They are Motorola they don't wear jackets!
They are Motorola they don't even own jackets!

Apple had this coming!!!

 

[kdarling]

With the rush to judgement the press made before the press conference, don’t you think the press would have rushed to report a story about all the people returning their iPhone 4’s?

Sure, if they noticed it. My point is that the "technical press" is lazy these days. Bloggers copying from each other.

Not one person in the press noticed all the clever things Jobs pulled in the press conference. As I said, if anyone here put up a chart listing just the "ATT return rate", half the forum would say "Oh, picking the lowest rate, huh? What about Apple stores, Best Buy, Radio Shack, etc??"

If you think people have been returning their phones in droves and the media/press didn’t realize this, then I don’t know what to think.

I didn't mention anything about returning in droves. Those are your words.

My beef is over the early ATT 1.7% rate that Jobs cherry-picked. It's simply not believable that the iP4 longterm return rate will pan out as being so much lower than normal for an Apple product. It'll be more like 5-10%.

I don't blame him for picking the lowest number. It's good dog and pony stuff when trying to defend your antenna. Rather, I'm after the press for not questioning it. But heck, they didn't notice the 6 out of 100 people returning the 3GS, either.

If you figure out that my posts are more about what I think about today's "technical press", you're on the mark.

Should Apple sit by as Moto/Verizon run ads saying you can hold the DROID X "any way you like" ... (snip)

Sure, Apple needs to speak up, but so far they're just pointing out that they suck as badly as other phones. Heck, their video comparisons have become a laughing stock on forums all over. That's not good PR.

Motorola claims their phone doesn't need a jacket. (Latest ad here.) Edit: I see it's already posted while I was writing.

Why doesn't Apple say the same?

I'm proposing that Apple try to find a positive spin for their phone, not that they roll over. (The Facetalk ads are good, for example.) In other words, you want people to remember something good about the phone, not be reminded constantly of the bad, which is what Apple's antenna videos do.

 

[Veri]

Not one person in the press noticed all the clever things Jobs pulled in the press conference.

I'm wondering whether it's more, "If I try to break the RDF, I'll never be invited to one of these things again."

Motorola claims their phone doesn't need a jacket. (Latest ad here.) Edit: I see it's already posted while I was writing

Someone needs to re-enact the "full - metal - jacket" scene from Full Metal Jacket, only, you know, unstable guy with an iPhone... that would have been way better than the awful song at the start of the antennanote.

 

[DMann]

cmaier was the first to correctly raise the input/process/output definition of a computer used in the context of information theory. This definition also applies to a mousetrap and isn't used by laypeople. You can test this by finding out how many people consider their mousetraps to be computers (without leading the respondent by asking "is a mousetrap a computer?" - see above).

Indeed, a valid point, on a very basic level.

The iPhone's computing abilities, however, far surpass that of a mouse trap, and remain consistent with the basic functions associated with netbooks.

The well implemented touch interface allows for better accessibility and, on several levels, easier, and more direct input.

I gave a definite example of a (jacket) pocket computer: the Toshiba Libretto. As well as having a general purpose input device - a physical keyboard - and a reasonable physical screen size (no amount of marketing about "retina screens" is relevant), it is a "PC compatible" with all the freedom to program that entails. It includes a generous range of contemporary I/O ports. The iPhone alone offers none of this.

The iPhone offers what the Libretto does not offer:

A highly responsive touch-screen keyboard, pre-emptive text, a vivid screen which is highly responsive to pinch-zooming, inertial scrolling, real-time resizing, direct touch input, Wi-Fi and BT for virtually any peripheral desired.

Want a larger monitor?

Several types of adapters will allow you to interface with USB devices, and yes, video out to larger monitors:

They are Motorola they don't wear jackets!
They are Motorola they don't even own jackets!

All Motorola phones are bound by straightjackets - thick, plastic casing, whether you want it, or not.

So much for choice.

 

[firewood]

...likely allowing us to conclude "iPhone is better for games but Cray 1 is better for science"

Nonsense. A Cray 1 had an 80 MHz CPU, only 8 megabytes of main memory,... and no keyboard. An iPhone 4 could run circles around it running most any scientific calculation... plus you can actually type some input using the onscreen keyboard. Given that a Cray 1 needed at least a .15 megawatt substation nearby, the iPhone is lower power as well.

My first personal computer had a bunch of switches and lots of lights on the front panel (e.g. it was a "real" computer). The iPhone can emulate it much faster than the original hardware.

 

[macsmurf]

This could be the dumbest thing I've read all week. Tons of engineers and scientists love and use macs, because unlike crippled Windows they can drop to tcsh or bash and do whatever they want; it's a beautiful GUI when they need it, and UNIX when they need that. My friends and I designed microprocessors, including probably the ones in your windows machines, and certainly know how to set up an email account (personally I even use my own mail server).

That's some really exquisite researching you did there.

He's a troll. One post.

 

[macsmurf]

I have so far mentioned neither an iPad nor a netbook. An iPad is much closer to a layman's idea of a computer than an iPhone is. A netbook, having an even better input device and more freely "accept[ing] data, perform[ing] prescibed mathematical and logical operations..." is certainly a computer.

Interesting. An iPad, which is, in essence, a large iPhone, is a computer. An iPhone is not.

At what size does a computer seize to be a computer?

 

[Veri]

The iPhone's computing abilities, however, far surpass that of a mouse trap,

So we're agreed that the layperson's computer isn't something which follows some specialist's clear-cut definition, instead depending on expectations when compared with existing "computers"? Excellent! We're almost there.

The well implemented touch interface allows for better accessibility and, on several levels, easier, and more direct input.

For example, I can click a hyperlink directly with my finger, I guess? Positive: more intuitive to point at something I want than to move a mouse to it, i.e. "more direct". Negative: hands over what I'm reading; either very cramped space making difficult to isolate one particular link (iPhone) or greater hand/wrist movement necessary than with mouse (iPad).

A highly responsive touch-screen keyboard,

Could you translate the marketing-speak "highly responsive" into something technically concrete, please. All I've managed to find on the iPhone is a tiny on-screen keyboard which allows far less productivity than a real keyboard and which is dangerously unergonomic to use for long periods. It's adequate for typing the occasional paragraph or filling in the occasional form, of course.

pre-emptive text, a vivid screen which is highly responsive to pinch-zooming, inertial scrolling, real-time resizing, direct touch input, Wi-Fi

What has all this got to do with whether the public regards the iPhone as a computer? "My 'phone has inertial scrolling!"

and BT for virtually any peripheral desired.

That's just wrong. Most protocols in the Bluetooth stack aren't supported and there is no third party driver programme.

video out to larger monitors:

You sure that gives you mirroring of the iPhone's display?

Nonsense.

Haha oh wow, I never realised I'd distress people so much by implying that a Cray 1 is in some ways better than an iPhone. I even put the "" to allay the fears of humourless zealots. If it makes you happy, I'm not seriously recommending people use a Cray 1 today for anything in production.

A Cray 1 had an 80 MHz CPU,

So? With that 80MHz it had native vector 64-bit floating point, which the iPhone doesn't. Even if we made the crude estimation that an iPhone's CPU is "about 10 times faster" on unoptimised scalar instructions because it has a 10x clock speed:
(1) With which 10 or fewer instructions are you suggesting that we simulate 64-bit floating point?
(2) Since we're now processing in software rather than taking advantage of the vector unit, how do you propose we compete with the Cray 1's cunning, such as instructions which operate on arbitrary lengths of data and optimise memory access accordingly?

Interesting. An iPad, which is, in essence, a large iPhone, is a computer. An iPhone is not. At what size does a computer seize to be a computer?

That's not what I said. I said that an iPad is closer to the public's conception of a computer. As it becomes possible to work with a machine as generally as you can with a computer, it becomes a computer. A straight iPhone is simply physically too small for this to happen.

 

[firewood]

(1) With which 10 or fewer instructions are you suggesting that we simulate 64-bit floating point?

The iPhone 3G has pipelined hardware vector support (VFP) for 64-bit floating point at 400 MHz. The Cray 1 could do a peak of 4 flops per clock cycle (3 vector, 1 scalar, non-sustainable), but since the CPU in the 3G clocks 5X faster than a Cray 1, net win to the iPhone 3G.

The A4 CPU in the iPad is only slightly slower (maybe a few %) than the CPU in the iPhone 3G at 64-bit VFP support, because VFP instructions are emulated on the A4 by faster, but non-pipelined, hardware (not software).

Not calling an iPhone 4 a computer because it sort of looks more like a phone is like not calling a Cray 1 a computer because it sort of looks like a modernista love seat. Neither came with a physical keyboard.

 

[Max(IT)]

C'mon guys, could you stop this question about what is a computer and what isn't ?

 

[0098386]

^ It's a forum. For discussion.

Yes.



Yes, though I'll take my iPhone over those two clunky beasts thank-you.




(For those still having trouble with this debate, I think the heart of the disparity in defining the term "computer" is summarized in the article: Old World vs. New World Computing - - it was written about the iPad, but illuminates the broader issue nicely.)

Then perhaps a new term is required for these devices.
To me, at least, a computer is something that can create the software it runs. Anything below that just creates "lesser" content (images, music) and runs what a real computer built for it. And that it's open, allowing me to add, remove or modify either hardware of software without breaking EULA's or anything like that.

It's like when Sony tried to class the PS3 as a PC to save on tax in Europe. They weren't granted the privilege.

 

[Veri]

The A4 CPU in the iPad is only slightly slower (maybe a few %) than the CPU in the iPhone 3G at 64-bit VFP support

I don't have instruction timings for the 1176JZ to hand, but you may want to be aware of just how expensive a single VFP instruction is on the Cortex A8. Note also the very restricted applicability of the NFP pipeline.

If you that badly want to give some evidence of iPhone "winning" over the 1976 Cray, how about linpack? A cursory search reveals 12 MFLOPS for the Cray-1 and around 20 MFLOPS for the iPhone (double precision).

Not calling an iPhone 4 a computer because it sort of looks more like a phone is like not calling a Cray 1 a computer because it sort of looks like a modernista love seat. Neither came with a physical keyboard.

The Cray 1 came with a DG Nova frontend/controller to which in turn a terminal and sundry peripherals would be connected. There was no attempt by Cray to restrict your programming of the machine or installation of software. Cray worked to ensure that vector programming was not made available at the expense of scalar operations, i.e. it was not restricted in practical terms to particular computations. The Cray-1 was a computer as the general public would see it.

To me, at least, a computer is something that can create the software it runs.

There's definitely something to be said for this. Quite a few definitions raise that a computer is programmable, and since anything can be reprogrammed with enough hardware/software/wetware, it'd be rational to understand a more specific sense in which a machine is programmable.

 

[firewood]

To me, at least, a computer is something that can create the software it runs.

You can write and run Javascript on an iPhone. I've done it.
But most personal computers (PC's) do not come with a user visible compiler pre-installed.

And that it's open...

A huge percentage of computers in the world are closed. Servers that are locked up for security reasons, like Google's, your bank's, etc. Are you going to say that Google doesn't have any computers in those huge data centers?

 

[firewood]

If you that badly want to give some evidence of iPhone "winning" over the 1976 Cray, how about linpack? A cursory search reveals 12 MFLOPS for the Cray-1 and around 20 MFLOPS for the iPhone (double precision).

Must have been poor porting to the iPhone. I've gotten over 60 double precision MFlops on generic matrix code similar to LINPACK. I don't need instruction timings because I have actual benchmarks. And the Apple optimized Accelerate library can do tons better than my generic matrix code.

 

[Veri]

Must have been poor porting to the iPhone. I've gotten over 60 double precision MFlops on generic matrix code similar to LINPACK.

Perhaps you're correct that your "generic matrix code" is similar to linpack (although linpack is a fairly specific test), but to assume with no real evidence that this paper and this summary, say, are written by incompetents is not good form. If you can get a three times speed-up, I am sure people would be interested - so please provide the code!

I don't need instruction timings because I have actual benchmarks.

If your application only needs to do what's in the benchmark, fair enough. You made an argument based on assumptions about instruction timings.

And the Apple optimized Accelerate library can do tons better than my generic matrix code.

What exact operation are you performing, is it double-precision, and what is the speedup from Accelerate? The library's greatest advantage will be afaict in using Neon (where possible).

A huge percentage of computers in the world are closed. Servers that are locked up for security reasons, like Google's, your bank's, etc. Are you going to say that Google doesn't have any computers in those huge data centers?

Dude, you're using "closed" in the sense that the owner has decided to set them up in a closed room. This isn't the same as the manufacturer creating a "closed room" for the device.