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they might be testing it, but it won't be until a6 or a7 that a solid "desktop" system (as opposed to ios) can be built on arm. Anyone who thinks otherwise is clueless.

KDE builds on ARM :

46-w09.png


Gnome builds on ARM :

overview.png


Unity most certainly builds on ARM (it's tailor made for ARM netbooks afterall) :

Current_Ubuntu_Netbook_Edition.png


Heck, all the Linux DEs build on ARM and run fine. They have for years. And all the Linux DEs make perfect "desktop" systems for people who do Web, E-mail, Facebook. Who's clueless exactly ?

However, I doubt Apple would go forward with this, especially with a build of OS X for ARM. Too much commercial software to through a whole CPU architecture change again, especially that now they are on Intel, the most popular architecture out there for laptops/desktops.
 
Put the high-res/ retina touch screen in and call is iPad Pro. I bet there would already enough people lineing up to get an iPad with build-in physical keyboard. And for many users it will be even enough (email, flash-free surfing etc). Overall a very plausible idea ...
 
The cool thing is Cocoa is so portable, that any Cocoa app will run perfectly on ARM with no extra coding required. Just a quick recompile. Pretty awesome. :apple:
 
how come they 've not done it already, I am wondering...maybe they were waiting to establish a developers market place under their control first so they could enforce programming directives better.

Or in a less sinister take...
LLVM JIT runtime is still about 12 months away from being mature enough but has shown great promise already in there Java JIT. There may even be a Flash JIT running in Adobe's labs.
 
I don't know all the technical challenges, but exactly how many "power users" buy a MacBook Air?

*Raises hand*. It's also my primary computer. Not all power users are about sheer CPU power. In my case, I use the shell and the Unix tools a lot. The MBA is plenty of computer for that.

I dabble some in graphics, but only when I make some websites/iOS stuff, I could do these graphics on my Pentium 2 333 mhz in Gimp if I really needed to (so it's not sweat for the MBA).
 
You don't think endianness might be an issue?
No. First, Objective-C programs typically don't rely as much on the cpu's endianness as C programs do - and it's bad programming style anyway to rely on endiannness.

But most importantly, ARM happens to use the same endiannness as x86 does.
 
Testing is one thing but if they bring anything to market thats slower than the Core2Duo it uses they'll have a netbook on their hands. Steve Jobs loves netbooks.
 
I'm sure apple has ARM machines running in their labs, just like they used to have intel machines, but for now intel has a big enough advantage that I don't see Apple actually releasing this. Maybe in 4 or 5 years though.
 
Geekbench processor scores for lulz:
A5 - 747
1.4 GHz Core 2 Duo (Penryn) - 2255
1.4 GHz Core i5 (Sandy Bridge)- 4519

You for the LOLZ

A5 is dual core and runs at 884MHz.
Maximum cores for this ARM architecture (Cortex A9) is 4.
"Normal" clock is 1GHz.

So, a normally clocked four-core A5 would be MUCH closer to the C2D version.
Plus, ARM is so far ahead of Intel in efficiency, that even a significant overclock would change nothing - it would still be FAR less consumption.
Now, how about a dual-processor (2x4 cores) design and some overclock?

That would come close if not beat the Penryn version and still be cheaper and consume less power (longer battery life).

And I bet Apple is not even looking to replicate the Sandy Bridge performance - if it can do web, documents and HD video without a hiccup, it's just what's needed for Macbook Air.
And MUCH better battery life / component price on top of that.
 
Is it a possibity that apple supports two architectures at the same time? Maybe ARM for MBA and MB, Intel for MBP, iMac, and Mac Pro?

From history, this is the windows way of doing things though.
 
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I ask myself, how did the source 'see' that it was performing better than expected when it was not clear which operating system was used?
Benchmarks? Cheering engineers?

Actually hoped for a powerfull Air but hey, let's see what Apple will do.
 
You don't think endianness might be an issue?

No, since Intel processors and ARM processors have the same endianness. Code written with the intent of running on a 32 bit Intel processor but avoiding inline assembler and vector operations will run just fine on an ARM processor (if you intend to do lots of unaligned memory accesses you better tell the compiler to make the code run fast, but that is very rare).
 
If you have a compiler and the source code for OS X then you can recompile. The problem is that *all* programs would need to be recompiled (unless you want to do emulation, but this would cause a large performance hit, on an already low CPU-power device)

All programs would need recompilation... Bootcamp would not work.

I hope that this is not true - Im considering to replace my MBP15 with a MBA13 at the next refresh. I'm a semi power user, but travel quite a bit and the 1kg lighter weight and lower bulk of the air is tempting.

Why wouldn't bootcamp work? Windows 8 will run on ARM.

Personally, I'm excited if Apple's going to come out with a low-priced Macbook Air that can compete with the Chromebook.
 
I guess that starting with Lion, Apple will force Apps submitted to the Mac App Store to be compiled with LLVM and distributed in LLVM-IR format. Then the OS will JIT compile to the target processor. This would not only make the Apps mostly processor-independent, but also automatically make use of the most efficient instruction set for the target processor.

You hit it on the head. LLVM now gives them the capability to make hardware platform agnostic app deliveries. Rather than JIT compile, they could simply have the installer perform the IR -> native translation and install the now native compiled application.

You can do something similar with Microsoft .Net programs and shave seconds (sometimes 10s of seconds) off of startup time.
 
I don't know all the technical challenges, but exactly how many "power users" buy a MacBook Air? MBA owners want something light with an insane amount of battery time. If you wanted something more "powerful," you would've bought a MacBook Pro.

I tested out the latest MBA when it came out. As far as speed goes (don't confuse this with power), on basic tasks it flies. No old-school spinning hard disk, just fast flash storage. If ARM processors can get iPad-like 10-hour battery life, you'll probably have plenty of buyers. It would also create a little more market separation between the MBA and MBP.

I personally like my iMac at home, iPad on the go setup about 95 percent of the time. I do wish I had desktop apps like Photoshop and a full keyboard from time to time, but mostly the unique abilities of an iPad make up for that. You can't have EVERYTHING you need without buying five or six different devices.

Now if Apple will just put a damn Blu-ray Disc drive on desktops and the capability to even use them in the OS, I WILL BE ONE HAPPY CAMPER.

As a "power user" who sold my MacBook Pro 15" to replace with a MacBook Air, I can tell you that I get better performance from the MBA than I was getting from my MBP. Granted, my MBP was a Core Duo 2.66. I know that a new SB MBP would offer better performance. I own a 27" iMac i7, with 2TB of HD, and 16GB of RAM. And I love it. But my MBA is the best computer I have ever owned.

I wouldn't welcome the switch, personally. We're just now getting beyond the transition to Intel, and Apple doesn't need the FUD of incompatibility claims out in the wild.

I believe that if it's true, it's strictly laboratory stuff for now. At least 2-3 years from being public.
 
First - it's only testing ... So might be a while

This might be the cheap answer to net books for users who mostly browse and probably write a few docs. lion could have a intel-Rosetta. Bit more full computer than iPad but still cheaper than current MBA for loe power users.

As long as there is still a powerful intel option I'm fine with it ( don't think arm will be as powerful in the near future)
 
I can see them doing this with the Air, but I cannot for the life of me see how they would justify this in all their laptops... at least not as the rumor suggests. I supposed it's possible they could offer both an Intel and A5 in the MB/MBP to have a High Power and Low Power mode. But to suggest that they would just replace the entire Intel lineup with their A5 processor is silly. All the professionals from Photographers to Directors to Audio Engineers would immediately move away from Apple to another company, because an A5 simply can't keep up with the processor demands. Even semi-pros and hobbyists would move away from Apple. Apple tried to make their own processors before and they couldn't compete with Intel. The likely hood of this rumor seems so far fetched I can't even believe it's being brought up, again. They've done a great job designing a low-power chip for mobile devices. But competing with Intel and AMD is a whole different league. These guys have way more money invested into CPU design, and anything Apple tries to create just won't be able to compete.
 
Interesting, will this be a slow progression away from the intel platform or is it a targeted use of the A5.

I hope they'll not be charging a thousand bucks for something that will run slower, and run less applications (windows, vmware etc)

In case it hasn't been said yet being a long thread. So people chafed at calling the MBA a netbook, there's no much excuse now, I mean it is a netbook at this point and given apple's propensity to over charge it will be one expensive slow laptop
 
No. First, Objective-C programs typically don't rely as much on the cpu's endianness as C programs do - and it's bad programming style anyway to rely on endiannness.

I have some image manipulation written using Quartz that disagrees with you. Try to manipulate RGBA values inside an 32 bit integer without conforming to the platform's endianness and come back and tell me the result. ;)

That's just how it is. It's not bad programming style, it depends on the requirements. If you're required to go to a lower level (I translate images to a series of pixel values using a CGBitmapContext so I can then manipulate the pixel data (to superimpose images partially) before displaying it on screen), you most certainly have to pay attention to endianness.

The beauty of ARM though is that it's endian-curious. It can be either big or little endian, based on what the chip designer makes it. Though for some odd reason, Apple picked the wrong endianness for iOS based devices so we're running opposite of Intel's.

You for the LOLZ

A5 is dual core and runs at 884MHz.
Maximum cores for this ARM architecture (Cortex A9) is 4.
"Normal" clock is 1GHz.

So, a normally clocked four-core A5 would be MUCH closer to the C2D version.
Plus, ARM is so far ahead of Intel in efficiency, that even a significant overclock would change nothing - it would still be FAR less consumption.
Now, how about a dual-processor (2x4 cores) design and some overclock?

You assume desktop and real-world tasks can be made parellele with 100% efficiency. That is unfortunately not the case. You'll never be able to reproduce synthetic benchmarks results with real world software as instructions are highly dependant on one and the other and while some form of out of order execution is possible, you cannot throw instructions on the cores in a round-robin fashion and hope something good comes out.

And a quad-core to catch up to a dual core ? Please. The ARM stuff might be highly efficient, but it's no where near the Intel mobile CPUs. It's good for handheld and embedded devices, why force yourself to stuff it in something like a laptop when you can simply go for Intel's mobile stuff which is already pretty efficient and much much better at brute instructions per clock.

Those people, who only do Web, E-mail, Facebook. :D

How are they clueless ? That's what they need out of a computer. Who are you to judge their needs ? I know many people who need nothing besides those things, especially now that Web encompasses a rich multitude of web applications (like iWork.com, Google Docs, etc..).

The same guy you just called clueless for using a computer only for Web access probably thinks you're as clueless for not needing a full set of allen wrenches, in all imperial and metric sizes. Not everyone has the same use for the tools we use (computers are tools) and you can't judge someone based on their needs in a particular field.
 
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Geekbench processor scores for lulz:
A5 - 747
1.4 GHz Core 2 Duo (Penryn) - 2255
1.4 GHz Core i5 (Sandy Bridge)- 4519


Ivy Bridge will support OpenCL on the IGP.

Thats a significant loss in processing power!

KDE builds on ARM :

Gnome builds on ARM :

Unity most certainly builds on ARM (it's tailor made for ARM netbooks afterall) :

Heck, all the Linux DEs build on ARM and run fine. They have for years. And all the Linux DEs make perfect "desktop" systems for people who do Web, E-mail, Facebook. Who's clueless exactly ?

However, I doubt Apple would go forward with this, especially with a build of OS X for ARM. Too much commercial software to through a whole CPU architecture change again, especially that now they are on Intel, the most popular architecture out there for laptops/desktops.

+1

Also I don't think it'd be as good as Intel ones atm. That would mean a significant performance hit. And $1000+ for such a device would be too much.
 
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Apple ran an intel version of Mac OS for years before the switch, this is not going to happen anytime soon. Apple is very clear in its behaviour to not be overly reliant on sole suppliers, it will always investigate alternatives, some of which will come to fruition in the future as a superior option. This is nothing right now. I would also expect Apple to be looking at iOS development throughout the range as a possibility.
 
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