Apple Threatens to Remove Email App 'Hey' From App Store Over Lack of In-App Subscription Option [Updated]

[TVOR]

They already paid the developer license. How about instead of jumping on the developer point out the obvious stupid rules that Apple continues to push (and break themselves) within the App Store?

but nah, that’s way too hard for you people around here.

How about people actually READ what they are signing up for instead of signing up then complaining after the fact that it isn't what they want?! Caveat emptor...

 

[Rob_2811]

I can’t help but wonder how everyone defending Apple would feel if they implemented the same App Store policies on Macs and didn’t allow you to download your own apps.

After all, if the iOS App Store as it is today is so great, imagine how your Mac experience will be elevated. Less malware, better battery life, better privacy, ... /s

I wouldn't honestly be surprised if they tried ..

 

[TVOR]

Having access to the best apps is but one of many reasons for my preference of iOS. I will likely still stay (and perhaps reconsider going back to stock apps). It just means the developer loses me as a paying customer were he to move to android.

It also makes a pretty compelling argument for Apple to have their own services like music streaming, just like they created their own mapping service to replace their reliance on google maps. This way, if Spotify ever did decide to play punk and withhold their service from iOS (perhaps as part of negotiations for better terms), Apple could just tell them to F off because they have an equivalent alternative to prevent users from following Spotify to Android.

Lastly, I continue to stay by my initial assertion that Apple’s 30% revenue cut is not unjustified and personally, it’s a hill I am willing to die on.

Here’s my argument, summarised.

1) I suspect Apple is not making as much money from the App Store as people make it out to be. Revenue is one thing, profit is another once you deduct the hefty costs of hiring all the people to manage the store.

2) As mentioned, there are many forms of app monetisation that Apple does not get a cut of. They don’t get facebook ad revenue, they don’t get a share of Uber rides or food deliveries, and they don’t get a cut when I buy clothes from Zalora.

I think we can all agree that nobody is expecting that Apple run the App Store at a loss, and the $99 a year from developers don’t even come close to breaking even. As such, the only source of revenue they can get is from app sales and subscriptions. So those who can pay, should pay.

3) I don’t agree that Apple should open up iOS to competing app stores, because that would weaken the main selling point of iOS - security.

The rules don’t strike me as unfair, but they do appear to be quite inconsistently enforced. If anything, it just means that Apple ought to do the same to larger companies like Netflix and Spotify, rather than continue to make exceptions for other developers.

I agree with everything you say here...but I have a solution! How about, drop the 30%, but charge ALL developers $10,000 per year? Oh, wait, is that not fair to the smaller Devs and would give the bigger Devs the upper hand? Boohoo! What do you want? Open access at a cost affordable to all Devs with the profit (Apple's profit) only being made when the Devs make profit...or Apple front-loading their profit at the expense of smaller Devs and in favour of bigger Devs?

 

[senttoschool]

I wouldn't honestly be surprised if they tried ..

Oh it's coming alright. The first move is a unified app store, which will be enabled by ARM processors in Mac.

The second is probably making it annoying to install apps outside of the app store.

Then finally an outright ban on apps installed outside of the app store.

 

[TVOR]

Oh it's coming alright. The first move is a unified app store, which will be enabled by ARM processors in Mac.

The second is probably making it annoying to install apps outside of the app store.

Then finally an outright ban on apps installed outside of the app store.

Seriously...just move to Windows/Android already! Nobody should have a right to tell Apple how to run their business! If they want to commit commercial seppuku by making these kinds of decisions...then let them! Why do "consumers" feel entitled to tell a company that they have to make the product/service that THEY want...not what the company wants. I don't walk in to Burger King, ask for a Big Mac, get told that they don't make Big Macs and then kick off complaining that BK not making Big Macs is invading my consumer "safe space"...FFS!

 

[boss.king]

Oh it's coming alright. The first move is a unified app store, which will be enabled by ARM processors in Mac.

The second is probably making it annoying to install apps outside of the app store.

Then finally an outright ban on apps installed outside of the app store.

The day that happens is the day I walk away from the Mac forever. I don't think I'd be the only one.

 

[ipponrg]

1) I suspect Apple is not making as much money from the App Store as people make it out to be. Revenue is one thing, profit is another once you deduct the hefty costs of hiring all the people to manage the store.

You make it sound like their current profit margins are too small. Your rationalization seems ridiculous

3) I don’t agree that Apple should open up iOS to competing app stores, because that would weaken the main selling point of iOS - security.

No, the main selling point of iOS is really the overall OS UX. The security thing I am sure most people could care less about although it’s a narrative pursued by certain people here.

The rules don’t strike me as unfair, but they do appear to be quite inconsistently enforced. If anything, it just means that Apple ought to do the same to larger companies like Netflix and Spotify, rather than continue to make exceptions for other developers.

I agree with this, but many people use iPhones for their 3rd party apps. If Apple lost one big provider, it could start to bleed. Imagine if most of the big apps were only on Android. It may get more people to start jailbreaking again if they wanted to stay on iOS

 

[UBS28]

The day that happens is the day I walk away from the Mac forever. I don't think I'd be the only one.

Same for me.

 

[TVOR]

The day that happens is the day I walk away from the Mac forever. I don't think I'd be the only one.

And that is YOUR choice...in the same way as developing their business and products the way that they want is Apple's choice. If you are right, and if people defect in the millions, then Apple will suffer and that is their choice. I absolutely respect your right to walk away, I am just sick of people acting like Apple (or whoever) has a duty to provide them with the product that they want.

 

[I7guy]

...
No, the main selling point of iOS is really the overall OS UX. The security thing I am sure most people could care less about although it’s a narrative pursued by certain people here.
...

You only know anecdotally what the main selling point of IOS is to the masses. I suspect it has to do with the closed ecosystem, one stop shopping approach, which Apple provides. People may care about security as well and believe (even if not 100% true in every instance) that IOS is fairly secure. And while the masses may not know the nitty-gritty details about the app approval process, there may be a warm and fuzzy feeling about downloading apps from an app store controlled by Apple.

I agree with this, but many people use iPhones for their 3rd party apps. If Apple lost one big provider, it could start to bleed. Imagine if most of the big apps were only on Android. It may get more people to start jailbreaking again if they wanted to stay on iOS

I personally wouldn't give up my iphone if for example, app store lost Netflix. However, on the other hand, Netflix could lose many IOS customers if they did that. I personally would give Netflix up and go with a competitor if Netflix dumped IOS.

 

[TVOR]

No, the main selling point of iOS is really the overall OS UX. The security thing I am sure most people could care less about although it’s a narrative pursued by certain people here.

I'm sorry...did you just assume my motivation? I believe that is a clear cut case of mis-motivationing me!!

Seriously though, I care far more about security and not having my information sold off than I do about where I can put an icon on a screen or other things like that. A phone is a "tool" for getting something done. Yes it would be nice if it was more ergonomic at times, but it does the job and I care more about not having my personal information commoditised than I do about a phone UX. I am not on it long enough in a day to care about things like that. Maybe that's the problem with some people and their views...

And by the way...it's COULDN'T care less...the amount of times I see this wrong and it infuriates me...it literally sounds wrong if you even take the time to read it back to yourself!!!

 

[boss.king]

And that is YOUR choice...in the same way as developing their business and products the way that they want is Apple's choice. If you are right, and if people defect in the millions, then Apple will suffer and that is their choice. I absolutely respect your right to walk away, I am just sick of people acting like Apple (or whoever) has a duty to provide them with the product that they want.

That's a weird thing to get so worked up over. As customers, we have every right to expect that a company would want to make products we want to buy, especially in cases like Apple where they do everything in their power to lock you into their ecosystem.

No one really expects them to listen most of the time, but since this is an entire website dedicated to Apple and their products, it seems like an appropriate place to discuss your interests as an Apple customer with other Apple customers.

 

[Madmic23]

Apple needs to update this policy, and the solution is easy. If your in-app purchase is unlocking a feature in the app, or allowing you to download something that is stored on Apple’s servers, Apple gets 30%. If your in-app purchase is for a service or content that is stored on the developers servers, and the developer is not using Apple to process the payment, Apple gets 0%. Easy. Let them put a sign up link in their app.

For all these people that are saying developers need to pay Apple for access to the App Store, they already do. There’s an annual fee.

For everyone that is comparing this to buying something in a store and the store getting a percentage of the sale, that’s not a good analogy. If you bought your iPhone at WalMart, should WalMart get a 30% cut of your phone bill? No, because they’re not providing the cell phone network infrastructure.

 

[senttoschool]

That's a weird thing to get so worked up over. As customers, we have every right to expect that a company would want to make products we want to buy, especially in cases like Apple where they do everything in their power to lock you into their ecosystem.

No one really expects them to listen most of the time, but since this is an entire website dedicated to Apple and their products, it seems like an appropriate place to discuss your interests as an Apple customer with other Apple customers.

In every product forum, you get posters that will respond to any feedback with: "You don't like it? Go somewhere else! It works for me." or "Your feedback is not relevant. You're not an expert. Leave it up to the company to decide".

 

[TVOR]

That's a weird thing to get so worked up over. As customers, we have every right to expect that a company would want to make products we want to buy, especially in cases like Apple where they do everything in their power to lock you into their ecosystem.

No one really expects them to listen most of the time, but since this is an entire website dedicated to Apple and their products, it seems like an appropriate place to discuss your interests as an Apple customer with other Apple customers.

I agree, you have a right to expect whatever you want, but that's not what I get worked up over. What I get worked up over is the complaining when those expectations aren't met. Especially when everybody is complaining that THEIR expectations haven't been met without considering that there are many other people who have very different needs or desires. Blatant consumerism only serves to amplify the already cancerous effects of social media in making everybody believe that their views are actually important when looked at on anything other than their own personal microcosm.

 

[Murkrage]

How about people actually READ what they are signing up for instead of signing up then complaining after the fact that it isn't what they want?! Caveat emptor...

Could literally say the same about you . How about you actually read up on what you are commenting on. Because if you did, you'd find out that they have a different app, called Basecamp, already on the app store that's set up the exact same way. They've been on the app store for years, they knew about the rules. Apple is being incredibly inconsistent here.

 

[TVOR]

In every product forum, you get posters that will respond to any feedback with: "You don't like it? Go somewhere else! It works for me." or "Your feedback is not relevant. You're not an expert. Leave it up to the company to decide".

You should put your Dev talents into making an app that allows people to surf the internet and only see opinions that agree with their own...you would make millions...I would buy it...in fact...I demand you make it!

 

[Rob_2811]

Oh it's coming alright. The first move is a unified app store, which will be enabled by ARM processors in Mac.

The second is probably making it annoying to install apps outside of the app store.

Then finally an outright ban on apps installed outside of the app store.

Unfortunately I think you're right.

 

[TVOR]

Could literally say the same about you . How about you actually read up on what you are commenting on. Because if you did, you'd find out that they have a different app, called Basecamp, already on the app store that's set up the exact same way. They've been on the app store for years, they knew about the rules. Apple is being incredibly inconsistent here.

There is no need for me to read up on things like that...because I could care less about what happens to an app developer for something that I will never ever use. But for somebody to base their business on online distribution platforms and to get caught out by not following the rules...well...that's just poor due diligence. If I were going to sink months of Dev work into a project, I would probably reach out to Apple first and say "Hey...Tim...you gonna cock block me if I develop this app?" Saves an awful lot of heartbreak later.

 

[boss.king]

I agree, you have a right to expect whatever you want, but that's not what I get worked up over. What I get worked up over is the complaining when those expectations aren't met. Especially when everybody is complaining that THEIR expectations haven't been met without considering that there are many other people who have very different needs or desires.

Unfortunately, general consumer happiness doesn't power the computer I use for my job. People complain because something they want or need hasn't been added (or in the case of this hypothetical, would have been removed). I can maybe take your point on people complaining that features they expect haven't been added, but when an update could significantly change the way you use your computer (i.e. the app store becoming the only way to get software on a Mac) I think some outrage is justified.

Blatant consumerism only serves to amplify the already cancerous effects of social media in making everybody believe that their views are actually important when looked at on anything other than their own personal microcosm.

This feels like a separate issue. People were just as demanding before social media, you just didn't see it. Maybe don't join a message board if you don't want to see discussion.

 

[edgonzalez32]

How about people actually READ what they are signing up for instead of signing up then complaining after the fact that it isn't what they want?! Caveat emptor...

Wtf are you talking about? That's your contribution to the discussion? "HOW aBoUt pEopLe acTUAlLY reaD what tHEy are sIgniNg UP foR" How about calling out the obvious anti competitive and anti consumer practices Apple abuses within the app store? Or are you too lazy to even think about any of that?

 

[Abazigal]

You make it sound like their current profit margins are too small. Your rationalization seems ridiculous.

Incidentally, Neil Cybart (of AboveAvalon) will be addressing this tomorrow, and I will see if I can chime in with additional information with regards to this.

However, in a much earlier article, he estimates that the App Store has a 10% margin. It may still seem like a respectable amount, but remember that revenue is derived from 0.3 x app revenue (a variable), while costs are fixed (man hours).

Any change in the App Store cut would cause revenue to decrease quite significantly, but costs remain the same, so this means that net profits would drop at a much faster rate. So I don’t think there is much leeway to decrease this 30% / 15% cut by too much if we expect the App Store to break even in the very least.

So yes, I know it may sound ridiculous that I continue to stand up for a trillion-dollar company who probably earns more in an hour than I ever will in a lifetime, but I do think that too many people are blindly jumping onto the Apple-hate bandwagon without fully considering all sides.

In the very least, I have yet to see anyone suggest a viable alternative cut, much less justify convincingly why we should settle on that number (be it 5% or 15% or whatever) other than “it just sounds fair”.

I agree with this, but many people use iPhones for their 3rd party apps. If Apple lost one big provider, it could start to bleed. Imagine if most of the big apps were only on Android. It may get more people to start jailbreaking again if they wanted to stay on iOS

As was stated elsewhere, 70% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

Apple has aggregated the best customers, who have a much higher propensity to spend on average. This is why the iOS App Store brings in more money than the google play store despite the later having a much larger user base.

They can try to bring their best apps to android. If I lose LumaFusion, I am not going to switch because there is no android equivalent of the iPad Pro to run said app on. And the developers know that there simply isn’t a large enough android user pool to market a $20 app with an optional subscription for additional resources.

Besides, it’s not like these developers aren’t making money on iOS. They are, and along the line, some dynamic changed and they now feel that they are entitled to a larger share of the profits.

I just feel that there’s a lot of nuance that has gotten lost in the near-universal rush to condemn Apple, and it’s not helping the conversation any.

 

[senttoschool]

You should put your Dev talents into making an app that allows people to surf the internet and only see opinions that agree with their own...you would make millions...I would buy it...in fact...I demand you make it!

Sure! And when my app is the only way to surf the internet, and when I charge you 30% of your salary to use it (but I'm giving it free to your wife's ex-husband), I will just ask you to not surf the internet at all.
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If I were going to sink months of Dev work into a project, I would probably reach out to Apple first and say "Hey...Tim...you gonna cock block me if I develop this app?" Saves an awful lot of heartbreak later.

This service does not exist. Apple does not pre-approve apps nor does it pre-approve an update to an existing app.

 

[mabhatter]

To me, it’s the same argument as taxation.

While Apple probably is profitable enough to subsidise their own App Store, they don’t. If we look at the App Store as an independent entity, one cannot deny that it costs money to run, and a lot of it. Apple employs a ton of people to help vet apps and manage the platform, and the costs of managing all this is definitely more than what can be covered by the $100 annual subscription paid by developers. Then there are editorials and curated lists and the like.

Bottom line is - the App Store takes a ton of money to operate.

As such, it doesn’t seem unreasonable to me that since developers are the ones who have their apps hosted on Apple’s servers, and whose app submissions are requiring people to vet through them first, that they be the ones to help foot the bills involved in running the App Store.

We could argue until the cows come home about what a reasonable cut ought to be (30%? 15%?), it’s all academic. From an individual’s standpoint, of course I want to keep every last cent for myself and not pay out any more than I have to. That’s why companies like Apple employ lawyers to help them get away with paying the absolute minimum amount of tax they have to, while staying within the confines of the law. As the government, I wouldn’t be happy with it, and that’s why Apple is in hot soup with some countries right now.

Replace “government” with “Apple” and “Apple” with “developers” and you have the exact same scenario all over again. Apple is not obligated to run the App Store for free and at a loss (even if one can argue that it is the App Store and the thriving app ecosystem it enables which has made the iphone as popular as it is today). Money is required for its upkeep, and its citizens (ie: the developers) ought to rightfully share in its upkeep, loathe as they may be to fork out a single cent more than they want to.

And like any citizen, the only way to get out of paying tax is to either make no money (ie: free apps), or move to another country with a more favourable tax structure (ie: don’t release apps in the App Store; move to android). Otherwise, it feels weird to go in knowing fully well the rules, then turn around and cry murder when you knowingly flout the rules and get called out by Apple for it.

What Apple has done is unpopular, but I don’t see it as wrong.

And no, I don’t accept the “Netflix has been getting away with it, an exception can be made for Hey as well” argument. And then another app is going to want the same treatment, and then another, and pretty soon, you have more and more apps circumventing App Store payment rules, which in turn contributes less money to the running of the App Store, and I guess one can see how it quickly becomes a slippery slope.

I would point out that Apple does not require ALL subscriptions be purchased thru the apps, only that IF a company takes subscriptions for functionality in the app, the company must offer the same subscription price INSIDE the app, which is subject to Apple’s 30% cut.

 

[TVOR]

Unfortunately, general consumer happiness doesn't power the computer I use for my job. People complain because something they want or need hasn't been added (or in the case of this hypothetical, would have been removed). I can maybe take your point on people complaining that features they expect haven't been added, but when an update could significantly change the way you use your computer (i.e. the app store becoming the only way to get software on a Mac) I think some outrage is justified.


This feels like a separate issue. People were just as demanding before social media, you just didn't see it. Maybe don't join a message board if you don't want to see discussion.

The world is moving to electric vehicles. I have a car that uses diesel. When the move to electric is complete I won't be able to use my car any more, it will be obsolete. I will have to purchase a new, electric car if I want to drive. That's just the world we live in. Things change and as much as we might not personally like it, we have to accept it even if it doesn't suit our own personal preferences.

What if an app developer creates an app that many people love and then decides in the future that they don't want to develop it any more...should they be criticised? Should they be forced to continue with it just to make other people happy? Of course not!

Plus I really don't see how App Store only would significantly change the way you use your computer. It MIGHT significantly change the way you install an app...one time...but then for the other 99% of the time the app would function exactly the same way and, therefore, your computing experience would not significantly change.

I honestly don't see what the big deal is. Is it about choice? Well then what about Apple's choice as to how to develop their own products? What about their choice as to how to spend their R&D money? What about my choice to prefer having quality assured software (to at least a greater extent) and much more confidence that my card details are secure with Apple vs. some random dude's website? What's that...I have the choice not to install software from a third-party site? Yes, yes I do. And you all have the choice not to install apps through the app store.

As for the second point, yes, I agree, you're right...it is a separate issue. But ironically you suggest that, because I find certain people's opinions going against mine, I should perhaps not join a message board because there will be discussion. So, in essence, if you don't like opinions other than your own, then GTFO?
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Wtf are you talking about? That's your contribution to the discussion? "HOW aBoUt pEopLe acTUAlLY reaD what tHEy are sIgniNg UP foR" How about calling out the obvious anti competitive and anti consumer practices Apple abuses within the app store? Or are you too lazy to even think about any of that?

Anti-competitive...blah blah...anti-consumer...blah blah...seriously...you have a choice...DON'T BUY APPLE if you don't like their policies. Why are people fighting over this? If you think Apple are evil then you have the choice to go Android. Why not vote with your wallet?! Apple might actually feel that if enough people did it. I am fairly sure they pay no attention at all to web forums!

And as for me being too lazy...au contraire my friend...I am simply too Capitalist!!
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Sure! And when my app is the only way to surf the internet, and when I charge you 30% of your salary to use it (but I'm giving it free to your wife's ex-husband), I will just ask you to not surf the internet at all.
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This service does not exist. Apple does not pre-approve apps nor does it pre-approve an update to an existing app.

I am not suggesting pre-approval...I am just suggesting that when an idea you have is "borderline", which this is if they are trying to get it classified as a "reader" app...then perhaps reach out to Apple for guidance. They may not offer that, in which case I say that that is almost certainly something that they SHOULD do. But to just jump in with both feet on something that could be contentious...that is kinda asking for trouble!