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You can jump and down, stomp your feet and shout as much as you want, but where you are simply wrong is what the customer buys is an application that has been curated by Apple, in a store supported by Apple, and advertised by Apple. All of those cost money and benefit both the customer and the developer.
I'm not doing any of that. I'm just telling you that you are, again and still, totally wrong.

I am sure they do not, but the do cover all the transaction support costs, deal with all the fraud themselves, etc., all substantial costs.
No, they're not substantial costs. Not in the least.

It is not a fixed cost as it increases based on the number of apps and the number of releases they each do. In addition, subscriptions still incur support costs (often substantial) as Apple usually the cost of refunds in most cases.
No, subscriptions incur no support costs to Apple as they should not be forcing them through their platform. In fact, as a developer, Apple subtracts value by requiring in app purchases for subscriptions because they provide you no way of determining what customer is paying you. You have to write tons of unnecessary code yourself to allow the client device to notify you that a given device has a valid IAP.

Additionally, it is absolutely a fixed operating cost because it does not scale based on cost of app. It costs Apple no more to host, distribute, or curate a $500 app than it does a $0 app. As such, charging a percentage to cover those costs is not justified.

Again, nothing forces you to purchase their products, nor forces developers to port to their platform. A company like Hey.com that has gone as far out of their way as they have to build a system for avoiding Apple's systems, and already has a web app, should be totally fine having that be their product.
Given that as a developer I have no control over what device my customer purchases, what you just said is a load of rubbish.
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This DHH guy seems to be really good at using Twitter to spread outrage and getting people on his side and personally, I am not entirely convinced that his position is all that defensible either. I don’t agree that an email app is the same as a reader app, which seems to the main point of contention here. He believes he is entitled to 100% of the profits from his email service, and his entire argument seems to rest on “other apps don’t need IAP, so my app shouldn’t either”. Which is essentially a variation of the “why are you booking me for speeding when my friend was also speeding the other day without getting into trouble with the law?” It’s not that speeding is suddenly okay just because some people have been doing it without repercussions, it’s just that the law hasn’t caught up with them yet, and wrong is still wrong.

Uh, he's hosting and providing a service, customer support for that service, ongoing development for that service, and is willing to shoulder all of the variable costs of payment processing. Apple provides for that subscription... nothing.

He is entitled to 100% of the profits from it.

Simple as that.
 
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Funny thing about that. If you own the phone, install android. You don’t own iOS though and there in lies the catch.

You are bound by the Apple ecosystem and the way it operates. Sure app developers don’t need apples app store. They can develop for android. But if you want to develop for iOS, there is that pesky App Store one has to go through.
It looks like this pesky App Store might get some alternatives sooner rather than later.
 
I think it’s time for Apple to offer a payments API and let VISA, MasterCard, Google Pay, PayPal etc into the App Store

Then let them all set what %age fee that they’re passing on to developers for each transaction.

Then let developers of each app choose which payments company that they want to support (like on the open web).

I’m betting the fees that eah will be less than 30% once there’s a choice of payment systems.

That’s competition for you.

Apple is only doing this because hardware sales are slowing - it’s a poor look for them and cheapens them.

EDIT: fixed typos not the content of the post.
 
Given that as a developer I have no control over what device my customer purchases, what you just said is a load of rubbish.

Your choice is what customer base you want to reach. If you want to reach Apple's you have to pay to do so.

Uh, he's hosting and providing a service, customer support for that service, ongoing development for that service, and is willing to shoulder all of the variable costs of payment processing. Apple provides for that subscription... nothing.

He is entitled to 100% of the profits from it.

Simple as that.
Apple provides a platform to reach an audience of potential subscribers and are entitled to be p[aid of that; like everyone else who does that.
How much is a separate issue.
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Read what I wrote again carefully.
In a discussion of the app store, you implied bandwidth is so cheap you could host the apps instead of Apple for $5. When called on that, you shifted to "I could host an individual app's bandwidth need and $5 was not real..." When I pointed out Apple does a lot more than host 1 app's you replied with the above. Face it. Your claim to be able to do what Apple does for $5 a month is specious. No reputable company will give you 6300GB of storage and unlimited bandwidth for anything near $5.

The point is it is not unreasonable for Apple to be paid for the services it provides and access to its user base; the value of that is independent of what it costs Apple to provide that value.
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I think it’s time for Apple to offer a payments API and let VISA, MasterCard, Google Pay, PayPal etc into the App Store

Then let them all set what %age fee that they’re passing on to developers for each transaction.

Then let developers of each app choose which payments company that they want to support (like on the open web).

I’m betting the fees that eah will be less than 30% once there’s a choice of payment systems.

That’s competition for you.

Apple is only doing this because hardware sales are slowing - it’s a poor look for them and cheapens them.

EDIT: fixed typos not the content of the post.
I'd bet if Apple did that the end result would be higher costs for developers as Apple will still want a cut and the new processor will take one as well.
 
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This DHH guy seems to be really good at using Twitter to spread outrage and getting people on his side and personally, I am not entirely convinced that his position is all that defensible either. I don’t agree that an email app is the same as a reader app, which seems to the main point of contention here. He believes he is entitled to 100% of the profits from his email service, and his entire argument seems to rest on “other apps don’t need IAP, so my app shouldn’t either”. Which is essentially a variation of the “why are you booking me for speeding when my friend was also speeding the other day without getting into trouble with the law?” It’s not that speeding is suddenly okay just because some people have been doing it without repercussions, it’s just that the law hasn’t caught up with them yet, and wrong is still wrong.

This speeding analogy is not valid. Getting ticket for speeding is a reaction, and not prevention. Apple doesnt fine you for doing something bad. They do remove/ban you from store tho. The Hey case analogy would sound more like "I'm apple and I'm gonna allow people to go on my race track. Person 1 can go racing, person 2 can go racing, but person 3 needs to pay me if he wants to go racing". But even this is bad analogy.

Apples case lies on distinction that Hey is customer app while Google Apps and others are business app. 1. hey is planning to launch business account (aka bring your own domain) later this year. 2. Fastmail, Protonmail and others are in same situation, but not getting hustled. DHH is complaining that rules are unclear, not equal for everyone and monopolistic (apple is dismissing precedence and handling on case-by-case basis). Also don't forget that Amazon was allowed to offer subscription inside of the app without apple taking a cut. How messed up is that?

Read Grubers take on it. Here's one quote from there: "I’m paying for Hey using the same company credit card I use to pay for Basecamp. How is that not a business service? I’m sure as **** reporting it to my accountant that way. Who exactly is paying $100/year for email service and not using it for business in some way?"
 
The developers know the system. Apple sets up the environment, produces the hardware and OS, sells the kit to users and expects their cut for software sales. Nothing wrong with that. As a dev of course I don't like the big slice being taken but I accept the system as it is.
 
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Imagine that you can only use Amazon pay on Amazon.com and that all 3rd party Amazon Stores get 30% of each transaction skimmed off by Amazon before they even see it.

Now imagine that everyone with an iPhone can only buy e-commerce goods via Amazon.com

I think that we can see that this might be a problem.
 
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Your choice is what customer base you want to reach. If you want to reach Apple's you have to pay to do so.
Utterly false. That argument is so invalid it isn't even worth addressing.

Apple provides a platform to reach an audience of potential subscribers and are entitled to be p[aid of that; like everyone else who does that.
How much is a separate issue.
No, they rent seek on a potential subscriber base by gatekeeping and saying "if a customer chose this platform, you must pay us 30%, you hear? Nice app you got there, be a shame if noone could subscribe...".

The last mob to try that was the actual mob. Didn't work out so well.

In a discussion of the app store, you implied bandwidth is so cheap you could host the apps instead of Apple for $5. When called on that, you shifted to "I could host an individual app's bandwidth need and $5 was not real..." When I pointed out Apple does a lot more than host 1 app's you replied with the above. Face it. Your claim to be able to do what Apple does for $5 a month is specious. No reputable company will give you 6300GB of storage and unlimited bandwidth for anything near $5.
No, but I could get what Apple supposedly provides for a hell of a lot cheaper than 30% through tier one bandwidth providers, Big Four banks, and simple negotiation. Apple does not provide 30% worth of value.

The point is it is not unreasonable for Apple to be paid for the services it provides and access to its user base; the value of that is independent of what it costs Apple to provide that value.
No, it absolutely is unreasonable. For a service where the developer is producing or sourcing the content, hosting the content, distributing the content, providing the customer service for the content, Apple provides negative value. They are not entitled to a single cent for subtracting value. They're rent seeking, nothing more.

I'd bet if Apple did that the end result would be higher costs for developers as Apple will still want a cut and the new processor will take one as well.
And given they provide no services they'd be, rightly, told to take a hike.
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The developers know the system. Apple sets up the environment, produces the hardware and OS, sells the kit to users and expects their cut for software sales. Nothing wrong with that. As a dev of course I don't like the big slice being taken but I accept the system as it is.

And yet if Microsoft said you had to give them 30% of all revenues from sales to Windows users you'd be screaming from the rooftops (probably literally) about antitrust. Yeah no. Apple's behaviour is nothing short of criminal, and it's about time someone with an audience (or a regulator) took them to task for it.
 
”That is obscene, and it's criminal, and I will spend every dollar that we have or ever make to burn this down until we get to somewhere better.”
Maybe build your own mobile operating system, build your own App Store, then put your own app in it. Boom! There’s a solution. Then you don’t have to pay anyone, except yourselves

Maybe if all developers actually join in and boicot iOS, than people like you and Apple would truly understand the value they deliver to the ecosystem. For one, far less iPhones would be sold and the iPad. Would be gone with the wind like the Windows 10 phones.

Hey, Telcos should probably charge Apple for 30% of every iPhone connected to their network too while offering their branded smartphones. Heck, Apple would probably never have the chance to market the iPhone if that was the case.

The idea that Apple did not have any support from developers and digital service providers in building their ecosystem is standard in the monopolist mindset.

What Apple is asking is a 30% of share of the revenue out of services and value they don’t deliver. Most people that buy apps in the App Store do so not because of the App Store or Apple but because of the app and service itself. In fact the App Store does very little in that regard. People search on Google for the apps, see adverts on Facebook, read read reviews somewhere else, watch YouTube videos ... and actually go to the App Store To download and buy eventually. It’s absurd to think otherwise.

Probably there was a time we’re the App Store was instrumental in thát regard, but not anymore. It’s mostly a more convenient and secure way for iOS users to get the App and a benefit to the Apple ecosystem. So ask the users to pay for the service. I wonder how much they would willing to pay on top of the devices price.

Not saying that Apple should not be payed for the service. But a 30% share o the devs revenue it’s absurd. That means that 30% of its success its down to Apple ... total nonsense.
 
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Apple wants to control everything as usual. It is time for more independent environment like /e/ from e foundation for example. It is ungoogled android which doesn't require Google account and doesn't share data with Google, but lets you use android apps. It is a great way for independence from Apple and Google duopoly.
 
...
What Apple is asking is a 30% of share of the revenue out of services and value they don’t deliver. Most people that buy apps in the App Store do so not because of the App Store or Apple but because of the app and service itself. In fact the App Store does very little in that regard. People search on Google for the apps, see adverts on Facebook, read read reviews somewhere else, watch YouTube videos ... and actually go to the App Store To download and buy eventually. It’s absurd to think otherwise.
..
It's absurd to think the App store doesn't add value and services. It does, whether you think there is value or not.
 
No, they rent seek on a potential subscriber base by gatekeeping and saying "if a customer chose this platform, you must pay us 30%, you hear? Nice app you got there, be a shame if noone could subscribe...".

The last mob to try that was the actual mob. Didn't work out so well.

The difference between your non-sequitur mob argument is that Apple gives yuo a choice. They do not threaten you if you chose not to deal with them. It's a developer's choice to accept Apple's Terms or not. If you don't make enough money after their cut fold the product and move on. It's really simple.

No, it absolutely is unreasonable. For a service where the developer is producing or sourcing the content, hosting the content, distributing the content, providing the customer service for the content, Apple provides negative value. They are not entitled to a single cent for subtracting value. They're rent seeking, nothing more.

Apple provides access to a large user base that spends more on average on apps than competing systems. If that has no value for you, don't develop for Apple; but don't whine about Apple's pricing while still wanting access to their user base.

If a developer can't make a living off of iOS they should find another platform or line of work.

As for rent seeking, unlike your mob example, Apple actually does create wealth since each sale puts 70% of the sale in the developer's pocket.

30% is a quite low cut; before app stores a developer was luck to see 30% of the sale price.
 
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$99 a year for an email app? Er.... no thanks!
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Book publishing, going on far longer than app sales:

In the Net Sales scenario, let’s say your publisher sells 5,000 copies of your book at a $20 retail price, but they’re paying you royalties based on net sales, or the amount received after they give the stores a discount of 50% off the retail price. The store pays the publisher $10 for each book, then turns around and sells it for $20 (or frankly, whatever price they decide).

Let’s say your royalty is 20% of the net sales, on your $20 hardcover book. If your book sells 5,000 copies, you would still theoretically earn $10,000 from those sales, even though your royalties appear to be double the percentage. This is because your publisher is paying you on net sales after a 50% discount is calculated into the deal.


30% take for all the App support is a pretty good deal.... a lot better than 80, after the end sales point takes 50!
 
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Can someone explain the logic behind Apple classifying Dropbox as a “reader” app thus not requiring IAP? This seems less about the type of app and more that certain companies are so big and Apple really needs them on their platform so they get special exceptions.
 
As a user, I like Apple’s subscription and billing processes. If I remember correctly, Apple even sends out an email when a trial subscription is about to end, giving me plenty of time to cancel it. I’m far more likely to use an app or service if it offers a subscription via the App Store than if I have to go through a sign up process. (Also makes changing cards much less of a pain.)

As a developer (but I’m not an independent developer), I’d say it also makes sense. I wouldn’t want to deal with the hassle or fallout of handling customer billing info. I don’t want access to your billing info if I can help it. Now, if you’ve got a multiplatform service, especially one where even your Apple users are highly likely to use it on non-Apple devices (heck, they might not even use the service on any of their Apple devices but still use the service), then not using Apple’s billing system makes a lot more sense (especially if you’re a media service with the overhead costs of media rights). As for apps, one time or subscription, you should charge what will give you a profit after Apple’s cut. If your market won’t bear that price, then you should cut expenses. (If Apple weren’t taking a cut and you complained about the profitability of your app at $99 vs $130, I’d tell you the same thing. You know the upfront fee, you should account for that in your pricing, and you aren’t owed users.) It honestly seems like this is just another developer protesting Apple’s rules for free publicity for a new service. (Apple’s rules are a little unclear, but, if you offer a subscription outside of the App Store, you generally can’t have a direct link or a call to action to get them to go to your site to sign up for the subscription. The screenshotted message seems like it’s toeing the line between call to action and not. It seems intentionally grey area-y.) There’s also the smell test. It’s admittedly not absolute, but some services/apps seem more appropriate for external subscriptions and some seem more like just trying to avoid Apple’s fees (which seems scammy for an app or glorified app-service hybrid, anything that’s not clearly a service first and foremost). This one, my initial impression was that it’s more app than service.

As for Hey, I’m not clear what it’s supposed to do. Seems like it’s SaneBox, except you have to use a Hey email account and the Hey app? I don’t get an unreasonable amount of email, and I have a manual email workflow that mostly keeps me on top of things, so I’ve never felt the need for SaneBox (I do kinda wish iOS Mail had auto filing rules and an export button, but that’s about it). Using Hey would require me to change apps, change my email account that I use (which is almost like legally changing your name, your email account is essentially your online identity for most services), and it doesn’t really seem suited for the GTD-ish workflow I use, which means that the Hey way of doing things would have to be 1000% better than my current workflow to get me to use it. SaneBox would give me, like, 90% of the features for cheaper and let me keep my existing workflow. (The notes feature seems like a neat idea, but it’s one of those ones that sounds good on paper, but I’m not sure how much I’d actually use it in practice. Most of my email, I either delete, file away in a reference folder, copy the info I need from it and then file away or delete, reply immediately, or, if it’s actually actionable but not right now, I’ll add it to OmniFocus, or rather Reminders as I’m re-establishing an OmniFocus based system with my upcoming re-read of GTD. It’s the 2 minute rule, and it works well for me as long as I don’t let things just sit in my inbox. I can’t think of a context where I’d want to take notes on an email where it wouldn’t be an actionable email and thus better suited for my to-do system.)
 
Can someone explain the logic behind Apple classifying Dropbox as a “reader” app thus not requiring IAP? This seems less about the type of app and more that certain companies are so big and Apple really needs them on their platform so they get special exceptions.

From the App Store Review Guidelines

3.1.3(a) “Reader” Apps:
Apps may allow a user to access previously purchased content or content subscriptions (specifically: magazines, newspapers, books, audio, music, video, access to professional databases, VoIP, cloud storage, and approved services such as classroom management apps), provided that you agree not to directly or indirectly target iOS users to use a purchasing method other than in-app purchase, and your general communications about other purchasing methods are not designed to discourage use of in-app purchase.

Notice my added emphasis so show how Netflix and Dropbox are considered reader apps. Notice email is not a category included, thus meaning "Hey" is NOT a reader-app.
 
Can someone explain the logic behind Apple classifying Dropbox as a “reader” app thus not requiring IAP? This seems less about the type of app and more that certain companies are so big and Apple really needs them on their platform so they get special exceptions.
I think maybe I wouldn’t use the term “reader”, as it mostly seems to apply to just media-centric apps like Netflix or Kindle. The primary distinction seems to be external service or internal service. Dropbox is more of an external service (you’ve got the Dropbox web interface and the Dropbox folder on your desktop, which may not even be an Apple desktop), it’s a service-centric app. On the other hand, an internal or app-centric service would be a notes application that uses a separate paid service for syncing. The service is part of the app, not vice versa. At least, that’s how I understand Apple’s guidelines intuitively (and it seems to match well with whatever their internal definition of a “reader” is). In the case of Hey, it really feels more like it’s an email client with power user features (like Google’s old Inbox interface) and less of a new email service provider that happens to offer an app with power user features. But their marketing website seems almost deliberately vague, I can’t tell if it can even be used with existing email accounts. (And, if it can’t, I’d just as soon use SaneBox and my existing email accounts, including potentially one on my own domain, than to surrender my online identity to Hey.)
 
Not wanting to line Apples pockets is totally legal too.

Totally legal yes...you can choose not to develop for iOS (I presume you are talking from a Dev perspective) but that's not what you are talking about is it? You are talking about having access to the customer base but not wanting to pay Apple for that...correct?

If I'm wrong about what you are referring to then please let me know what you are referring to about not wanting to line Apple's pockets and I can comment on that instead...
 
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Can someone explain the logic behind Apple classifying Dropbox as a “reader” app thus not requiring IAP? This seems less about the type of app and more that certain companies are so big and Apple really needs them on their platform so they get special exceptions.
Every company on the face of the earth works differently for large customers than smaller customers. Even though some large customers, such as UBER, don't get carte blanche. So dropbox may get some special considerations. Is dropbox a reader app or not? Hard to tell.
 
I think that’s the point of the EU investigation - you can’t open your own supply chain for iOS.

No one has a right to be able to develop and sell applications for whatever platform they want. Pretty sure that's not in any country's constitution. I've never understood this application of anticompetitive behavior statutes. It's like learning to share as a kid.

"Mommy, I want to play in that sandbox!"
"Well, you can't, little one, because it's not yours. But, you can play in this sandbox right here."
"But moommmmyyyyy I want to play in THAT sandbox."
"Ok, honey, we'll sue that little kid's parents and make it so you can play in that sandbox too."
"I love you Mommy."
 
And yet if Microsoft said you had to give them 30% of all revenues from sales to Windows users you'd be screaming from the rooftops (probably literally) about antitrust. Yeah no. Apple's behaviour is nothing short of criminal, and it's about time someone with an audience (or a regulator) took them to task for it.

I love how some people are so quick to attribute their own feelings and positions on to other people as if it's utterly impossible to imagine somebody disagreeing!!

I have said in previous posts that there are some "costs of doing business" that just can't be avoided. They vary by industry of course, but most industries have them. If I was a Dev and MS suddenly started charging 30% then I evaluate whether I want to continue in that business or not...simple.

The fundamental difference between what Apple is doing and what MS do in your hypothetical scenario is simple; in your MS scenario they START charging 30% now so that Devs who are already working on the platform have to start paying 30%. We are talking about Apple who - as far as I know - has ALWAYS charged 30%...so you know what you are getting into when you sign up to be a Dev.

There are many symbiotic relationships in the world and they are rarely "equitable"...but they continue regardless. Apple needs Devs...Devs need Apple (or they do if they want access to the iOS customer base). Apple can adjust it's commission but it will reduce the number of Devs (but increase % profit) if they increase it and increase the number of Devs (but reduce % profit) if they decrease it. There will have been an analysis of where that "sweet spot" was before they set this commission...the "sweet spot" being where the commission is too high for some Devs to stomach but low enough for a large enough number of Devs to agree to and making the cost/benefit analysis work for them in terms of what profit they wanted to achieve.

And believe me, EVERY business has profit goals for the products/services. Many are lower than 30% and many are much higher than 30% (that's not even taking into account that their profits won't be the whole 30% commission fee). If you start manufacturing a widget you will set your profit goals and then do a market analysis to see if the numbers add up. Of course you will lose out on some customers if you price it too high...but the higher profit will make up for the lower numbers.

Apple is entitled to choose what profit it wants to make...it doesn't owe consumers, Devs or anybody else a cheap deal!
 
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Is dropbox a reader app or not? Hard to tell.

It's not hard to tell. Apple defines it:

 
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