Apple Threatens to Terminate Epic Games' Developer Accounts on August 28

[cws]

This really is a curious argument from both sides.

On the one had Epic has a point. 30% is a massive amount to be giving to another party (when you have the infrastructure in place to take payments yourself). The way Apple applies App Store rules is also shockingly inconsistent with different types of content and let's not forget the special "exception" that allows for Amazon's Prime app. Apple can quite literally make up the rules as they go along.

However I've never got this notion that you MUST be in the App Store and play by their rules. Apple's wording with the Hey issue was very telling:



Apple considers iPhone users Apple customers and that's the end of it. Developers are welcome to a free ride accessing THEIR customers if the rules are followed.

So if you don't like that your platform or App is based around the customers of another company it's simple. Leave. If enough developers leave then the iOS ecosystem will die a very quick death (granted, it would make Android the hyper-dominant platform...). Or Apple will come grovelling back to gain App support 🤷‍♂️



Ultimately Epic went out of their way plotting to humiliate Apple which is fine but they should've known the end result would be getting cut off from everything Apple. Or "You hate our platform so much we'll help you get off it by requiring you to follow every sentence of our agreement". Apple don't owe Epic anything. What is slowly panning out is that Epic needs access to Apple platforms (thanks to Unreal Engine) more than Apple needs Epic. Apple would prefer developers to code exclusively within the Apple ecosystem and toolset anyway.

TL;DR - Know what you're getting into with closed ecosystems and if you don't like it there are plenty of open ones.

The problem with a closed ecosystem is that as it becomes larger and more encompassing in society, it becomes difficult for new competitors to enter. In vertically integrated markets, there's often only a handful of giants.

In the smartphone market (which I would argue is essential to modern life today) if you don't like Apple's ecosystem, the only other choice is Google's. That's not a "plenty" of them.

 

[Ethosik]

Epic is not quite the saint you think they are. This is about money, case closed. (Same can be said for Apple — but I’ve never pretended Apple isn’t a for-profit company)

Epic’s battle for “open platforms” ignores consoles’ massive closed market

Sony, Microsoft, and Nintendo demand the same platform control—and the same 30% fee.

arstechnica.com

I don't think its helpful in any discussion to say Apple/Epic/Whoever is only interested in Money. Business exist to make money. That is it. Sure there are side/secondary benefits like wanting to create systems or environments to help people. But at the core, business exist to make money. I do not blame Epic, or Apple for this part. What I do blame Epic for is breaking the App Store rules and complained/sued about it. You break Store policy, this happens. Live with it.

 

[Abazigal]

The only way I see Apple bending here is if other big gaming developers pull out. If this creates a domino effect, Apple will respond because Apple likes money.

Apple craves control more than anything else. I can see Apple taking the financial hit if for no other reason than the grim satisfaction of seeing Epic not getting their way.

 

[ececlv]

the whole monopoly thing is weird. Last night i played fortnite on my switch snd my mac. How is that possible if ios app store has a monopoly?

 

[bousozoku]

The verge article today has EPIC Vs Apple impacting Apple directly now.



I think we are all starting to see how big a revenue source the iOS/iPad App Store actually is. Its huge. Likely second to their iPhone revenue.

I wonder what would happen if Epic Games was knocked out of Playstation and Xbox stores because they don't like the fees there, either. What's 30% of 0?

 

[PsykX]

Although anybody that knows me calls me the Apple fanboy, although I never played Fortnite, it's the first trial that I hope Apple loses.

If the amount was fair in this day and age, people wouldn't bother installing direct payment. Because even direct payment retains a bit of money.

 

[Naaaaak]

See you weren’t around for the dark times, times when developers like Microsoft or other game devotees actively ignored the Mac platform. I still remember going to my local electronics store and seeing wall to wall games, all made for pc, then going to the Mac section that was 2 rows deep with most being productivity programs. These company’s never gave one **** over The Mac platform and if we did get a AAA title, it’s usually a 2 year old port done by asypr.

I bought my iPhone cause I want the best user experience for a mobile phone, same with my computer/tablet.

I was around for the beleaguered era. Apple is abusing their position in mobile harder than MS abused their position on Desktop, despite the marketshare differences.

MS couldn't ban a dev from all their devices. Apple is publicly threatening to, for a spat over the App Store.

 

[farewelwilliams]

Agreed! Epic Games you drag Apple’s name in the mud after agreeing to their terms all you get is dirty!

Epic Games, here’s mud in your eye.

I guess this means Apple has complete confidence in the smaller and other game developers on their platforms and potentially internally they know they have a better engine than Unreal Engine for other developers to tap into directly using Metal. I’m hoping so!!

It's a lifeline for Unity for sure. Ever since Epic made tons of money from iOS (which they don't seem to give Apple credit for featuring them on the store), they've made a ton of investments in making Unreal Engine the only engine that matters. Now that UE is in jeopardy with iOS and Mac, this is great news for Unity.

 

[borgein]

I think everyone should read this article about how Epic Games operates, and how nice and honest Tim Sweeney is.
This war has already been going on between Epic and Steam for years. Anyone thinking that Epic cares about consumers interest is WAY off. Epic Games and Tim Sweeney is as rotten as it gets.

Tim Sweeney is a hypocrite and asshole

Tim Sweeney is the founder and CEO of Epic Games, a company most famous and known for Unreal Engine, the biggest and most popular game engin...

tinyurl.com

A quote from the article:

"Direct competition isn't bad all in itself. In general competition is good for the consumers. Healthy and fair competition. However, that's not what Epic is doing. Instead, they are engaging in anti-consumer tactics to do so. Epic is throwing incredible amounts of money at developers in order to guarantee exclusivity deals. In other words, Epic is paying developers to not publish their games on Steam, and instead publish them on Epic Store exclusively. They are essentially trying to steal developers away from Steam, in order to boost their own store and hurt Valve, in order to forcefully get into the market (again, not my words, but theirs)."

And now Epic Games wants to do the same on mobile devices. Basically it boils down to Epic Games wanting to dominate the gaming market with their own Epic Games Store application, which in the long run would give Epic Games monopoly over the gaming market.

 

[Regbial]

LOL, Apple showing it's teeth... losing it's cool...

No fan of Tencent and Epic Games or Fortnite... but boy do I enjoy the pot being stirred once in a while...

 

[farewelwilliams]

And Apple has even more. Apple at one point had more cash reserves than the entire United States Government. Epic has a market share of 1 billion. Apple has a market share of 2 trillion.

Market cap*

Apple can't have a market *share* of 2 trillion since there are only 8 billion people in the world.

 

[MacCheetah3]

Updates that fix unreal future iOS issue might suggest unreal has unauthorized access to development tools.

Perhaps. Although I think, Epic may have a little to lean on if the Unreal Engine (code) itself doesn't violate any of Apple's terms/conditions/guidelines.

Business exist to make money. That is it. Sure there are side/secondary benefits like wanting to create systems or environments to help people. But at the core, business exist to make money. I do not blame Epic, or Apple for this part. What I do blame Epic for is breaking the App Store rules and complained/sued about it. You break Store policy, this happens. Live with it.

Agreed.

In a comic relief type way... The situation reminded me of this movie scene.

 

[4jasontv]

Although anybody that knows me calls me the Apple fanboy, although I never played Fortnite, it's the first trial that I hope Apple loses.

If the amount was fair in this day and age, people wouldn't bother installing direct payment. Because even direct payment retains a bit of money.

What? Try and explain that again. It’s sounds like you are saying it’s ok for Epic to circumvent their agreement because Epic wanted to do it.

 

[cws]

Developers have and still will develop for iOS. Epic is just being greedy and wants a bigger slice of the pie. They don't let others bypass their app store..

Actually, you can. You can publish on Steam, the Microsoft Store, or even sell it yourself on PCs, correct?

I think my favorite part of the notice from Apple was listing all of the services, tools, extensions, APIs, etc that they offer developers in exchange for the 30% cut.

It shows that companies are ignorant of their successes and forget that without platforms like the App Store or Google Play store they wouldn't have anywhere close to market share they enjoy today.

It's a symbiotic relationship -- Apple sells devices to users, and Apple should want to have better apps on it than the competition. I could even see Apple investing in developer tools as delivering value to the product itself -- which is trying to make sure the best apps and app experiences are on its its own platform (e.g. see the terrible tablet apps on Android.)

Maybe Epic is just being greedy and biting the hand feeding it. Or maybe it should be more of a handshake -- and Apple is squeezing really hard and unwilling to let go of its iron grip.

 

[jimmy75]

I wonder how George Orwell would feel to have his writing used this way? A company with a value of over 17 billion dollars, with the ability to have advertisements seen practically anywhere they wish and with whatever message the company pleases portraying themselves this way?

 

[farewelwilliams]

The console comparison is void, Mr Gruber. A console is not essential like a personal phone is. These are the only computing devices some people have. Mobile is controlled by an anti-consumer duopoly and you don’t have a choice. Apple/Google actions show both need massive regulation to stop the anti-competitive behavior (which is getting worse over time).

Apple also has years of marketing iOS devices as “computers” (not “consoles”), but perhaps we should have taken their wordsmithing more seriously:
View attachment 944981

(ripped from twitter)

So you'd be fine if iPad/Apple Watch/tvOS had the same rules (considering tablets/smartwatches/tv boxes are *not* essential), but iPhone had relaxed rules like having a third party app store?

I think Apple would be fine with that if ordered by the government. If users want an iPad/Apple Watch/tvOS version, they'll have to grab their iPhone version of the app from the App Store (if it exists) and would probably not want to deal with a third party version.

I don't think much would change but ok let's do that.

 

[Ethosik]

I’m as big of a fan of Apple as anyone else here... but defending Apple on this is weird to me. You LIKE paying more for things as a consumer because of the high cut Apple takes because they can? Should Microsoft take 30% of every windows program, that you in turn pay for?

There is NO way the savings are passed on to the customer. It might seem that way immediately, "Look we can see this from our own store for $8!", but it will become the same price at some point. Why is the same game sold for $60 on Steam that takes 30% compared to Epic Games Store which takes a smaller percentage?

 

[Ethosik]

They charged 30% commission on windows phone and take 30% for every XBOX game.

Also on the Microsoft Store on Windows 10 PCs.

 

[cws]

I think everyone should read this article about how Epic Games operates, and how nice and honest Tim Sweeney is.
This war has already been going on between Epic and Steam for years. Anyone thinking that Epic cares about consumers interest is WAY off. Epic Games and Tim Sweeney is as rotten as it gets.

Tim Sweeney is a hypocrite and asshole

Tim Sweeney is the founder and CEO of Epic Games, a company most famous and known for Unreal Engine, the biggest and most popular game engin...

tinyurl.com

A quote from the article:

"Direct competition isn't bad all in itself. In general competition is good for the consumers. Healthy and fair competition. However, that's not what Epic is doing. Instead, they are engaging in anti-consumer tactics to do so. Epic is throwing incredible amounts of money at developers in order to guarantee exclusivity deals. In other words, Epic is paying developers to not publish their games on Steam, and instead publish them on Epic Store exclusively. They are essentially trying to steal developers away from Steam, in order to boost their own store and hurt Valve, in order to forcefully get into the market (again, not my words, but theirs)."

And now Epic Games wants to do the same on mobile devices. Basically it boils down to Epic Games wanting to dominate the gaming market with their own Epic Games Store application, which in the long run would give Epic Games monopoly over the gaming market.

Is there any difference if, say, Apple wants to pay developers to publish their games on Apple Arcade?

Apple Arcade exclusive means not on Android, consoles are fair game - 9to5Mac

With Apple Arcade launching later this month, a lot of general public attention has been drawn to the service, which...

9to5mac.com

 

[4jasontv]

There is NO way the savings are passed on to the customer. It might seem that way immediately, "Look we can see this from our own store for $8!", but it will become the same price at some point. Why is the same game sold for $60 on Steam that takes 30% compared to Epic Games Store which takes a smaller percentage?

Epic would need to concede a degree of market oversight to validate this point. Are they going to promote used sales of digital items? Will they allow independent third parties to decide the sale price of their goods?

What if Epic was allowed to sell items from any store they want, but they could not be personally involved in its sale on any platform?

 

[4jasontv]

Is there any difference if, say, Apple wants to pay developers to publish their games on Apple Arcade?

Apple Arcade exclusive means not on Android, consoles are fair game - 9to5Mac

With Apple Arcade launching later this month, a lot of general public attention has been drawn to the service, which...

9to5mac.com

Apple made it clear for years that they don't want to do this by not doing it. They had their hand forced.

If developers would stop trying to milk mobile games and just release games without IAP and a price tag that degrades over time than Apple would have no need for exclusives.

 

[jonblatho]

Indeed. Xcode is a public, free download, API documentation is via public URLs, the Apple Developer app and videos are public, free to access. So, Epic should be able to continue to update the UE (code) for iOS, they just wouldn't be able to publish apps/games or otherwise access the Connect portal.

And then they can sign it with a distribution certificate that they can't keep, if they can obtain one in the first place, rendering it useless.

 

[stlredbird]

So does this mean no Infinity Blade Dungeons?

 

[borgein]

Is there any difference if, say, Apple wants to pay developers to publish their games on Apple Arcade?

Apple Arcade exclusive means not on Android, consoles are fair game - 9to5Mac

With Apple Arcade launching later this month, a lot of general public attention has been drawn to the service, which...

9to5mac.com

Intent and motive matters. If you go back a few years and take a look at Tim Sweeneys posts and intents about their goal when Epic and Steam was "fighting", you'll understand. Epic didn't do it to gain exclusives, they did it to specifically hurt Valve/Steam, and Tim Sweeney was open about it on Twitter.

 

[PlainBelliedSneetch]

No matter how you cut it 30% is an obscene take.
Either Apple needs to allow side loading, so I don't have to use their platform OR they need to come up with some better terms.
You don't get to completely control access to the platform and then charge obscene fees.
Google fits into the same boat, almost. You can side load apps on a Google/Android device.
There is no requirement that you use their store.

Epic tried the side load method on Android for Fortnite but ultimately buckled to the cost-benefit advantage of the Play Store. So, apparently the 30% was not considered to be obscene by Epic.