Apple to Adopt RCS Messaging Standard for Better Interoperability With Android Devices

[ki77erb]

I think you may have misunderstood. Google's RCS was always envisioned to improve B2C business messaging, not it's sole purpose, but one of its uses. Right from their website "Credit card fraud alerts, flight status updates, and package delivery notifications are common examples of business-to-consumer SMS." Although it's interesting to note the large issue RCS had in India where businesses, including banks and lending firms, abused RCS and spammed users so badly Google had to turn it off. That's a good sign that Google is being responsible (and more likely following the law), but a bad sign that it might be abused, although any system can be abused. My main point was that Google isn't pushing RCS because of some concern over kids getting bullied over green bubbles, and vice versa Apple isn't agreeing to it for that either. Although it makes for great PR and you can bet both of them will somewhere along the line toot their own horns.

Honestly what causes kids to ostracize green bubbles ain't going to go away with changing bubble colors, which I highly doubt Apple would do anyway. Fixing group chats and videos/pictures finally being sent in a modern resolution will be a great step, but non-iMessage users will still be ostracized because they can't tap back, or don't have access to stickers, or typing indicators, or whatever iMessage feature possibly doesn't make it into RCS.

I 100% agree with you that this will probably not completely solve the issues of bullying based on what type of phone a person uses. It's a sad symptom of the influence that corporations have over society. Especially youth but also adults. I'm 40 years old and still catch flack from some iPhone users about my phone. What I usually say is that Android is a better operating system than ios FOR ME. Your iPhone is better FOR YOU. Everyone is free to buy the products they like. If you're 94 years old and all you want is a Jitterbug flip phone so you can call the grandkids... go for it! Who the hell am I to judge you for it.

The bottom line about RCS is that for the people that will benefit from it, it's a great thing. For the people that don't need it, it will have ZERO effect on how they communicate. All this complaining is pointless. Apple is a smart company. They know what they're doing and they are actively working with GSMA to make sure any concerns or recommendations they have for RCS are addressed. Google is doing the same. Making RCS utilize E2EE for everyone should be priority #1.

 

[ki77erb]

What happened to educating yourself isn't difficult? They're not using Signal's protocol, they're using a protocol based upon Signal's which has been said multiple times in here by multiple people. Just like they're not using RCS UP, they're using their version of it which they control.

So you said all that to avoid providing any shred of proof at all to back up your claim? Got it. Let me know when you have something.

In the meantime while you're looking, I'll provide you with a little reading material from Google on how their encryption works.

"our eligible messages and their attachments, such as photos and videos, will be end-to-end encrypted. End-to-end encryption is a security method that keeps your communications secure. With end-to-end encryption, no one, including Google and third parties, can read eligible messages as they travel between your phone and the phone you message. "

"When you use the Messages app to send end-to-end encrypted messages, all chats, including their text and any files or media, are encrypted as the data travels between devices. Encryption converts data into scrambled text. The unreadable text can only be decoded with a secret key.

The secret key is a number that’s:

• Created on your device and the device you message. It exists only on these two devices.
• Not shared with Google, anyone else, or other devices.
• Generated again for each message.
• Deleted from the sender's device when the encrypted message is created, and deleted from the receiver's device when the message is decrypted.

The Messages delivery server, and any person or third-party who might gain access to data for messages and content sent between devices, won’t be able to read end-to-end encrypted messages because they don’t have the key.
Each end-to-end encrypted conversation has a unique verification code. This code must be the same for you and your contact to verify that your messages are end-to-end encrypted. "

 

[cyb3rdud3]

but then we'll have to start seeing those ugly android emojis now lol

No you don't, they are included as unicode. They get rendered client side...

It is also really kind of baffling how so many people want to change what makes iphone an iphone and its features/abilities to match non iphone devices... like at that point just get a phone that isnt an iphone?

It isn't changing what makes an iPhone an iPhone, it is opening up interoperability. I find it baffling how some wouldn't want interoperability?

That is like saying some roads are only for Ford manufactured cars, and other roads are only for BMWs.

 

[robbietop]

You put way too much effort into that when you could of just said "Apple good. Google bad."

This category 5 meltdown over the announcement is really just sad and pathetic and to be honest makes you look like a whiny child. All that just for some attention? Weird.

Enjoy RCS.....every messaging app is leagues ahead of it in adoption and modern standards

 

[robbietop]

And now (or soon), a default, cross-platform messaging solution that can send a high-resolution photo. Sounds like a win.

Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, iMessage, Telegram, Discord, Teams, Zoom, Skype, SnapChat, WeChat, Slack, Hangouts (LOL), Signal, and Duo (LOL) do this, as well....and are already on the market.....

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Enjoy RCS.....every messaging app is leagues ahead of it in adoption and modern standards

adoption yes, standards? I'm curious which standards does every messaging app adhere to?

 

[ki77erb]

Enjoy RCS.....every messaging app is leagues ahead of it in adoption and modern standards

RCS is not a messaging app. Why are so many people having such a hard time understanding these concepts. You have access to the same information I do!

 

[ctklein]

What makes an iPhone an iPhone? Is it the stubborn locking down of useful features?

Do you go in to buying an iphone unaware of its limitations and features?

 

[jakey rolling]

Do you go in to buying an iphone unaware of its limitations and features?

Might surprise you to hear this, but most people buy smartphones without being aware of their limitations and features.

 

[ki77erb]

Might surprise you to hear this, but most people buy smartphones without being aware of their limitations and features.

Absolutely true. Same for computers, TV's, tablets, etc. Most people are just tech savvy enough to get by but don't understand much of the underlying systems. There are already 42 pages of comments on this thread that demonstrate that pretty effectively.

 

[Samplasion]

Do you go in to buying an iphone unaware of its limitations and features?

I fail to see how that's at all relevant to the question at hand

 

[jvolkman]

Facebook Messenger, WhatsApp, iMessage, Telegram, Discord, Teams, Zoom, Skype, SnapChat, WeChat, Slack, Hangouts (LOL), Signal, and Duo (LOL) do this, as well....and are already on the market.....

Which one of those is a cross-platform, default (pre-installed) app?

 

[truthsteve]

It’s not stupid it’s just your opinion! You obviously don’t like it because of the colours! Now that sounds stupid to me!

saying something is stupid can literally be an opinion. lol

you failed to understand the reason. 🤦‍♂️

 

[SMH4KIDIOT]

For like the thousandth time, it won't be useful unless your carrier utilizes UP on iPhone. It has to be enabled carrier-side or you have to use Google's messaging app. If they implement UP tomorrow and your carrier has not, nothing will be different.

That is not how it works. RCS is the protocol, UP is specification agreed upon on how to implement RCS to ensure compatibility with everyone. If you follow the UP guideline and specification, your RCS implementation should work with anyone who follows the UP guideline and specification.

Google follows UP guidelines and specifications, they are a member of GSMA.

By aligning on a universal RCS profile, mobile operators will be able to deploy a consistent RCS implementation, feature set, and configuration. The Android RCS client provided by Google will be based on the universal profile, enabling consumers to access RCS services on their devices. Features such as group chat, high-res photo sharing, read receipts, and more, will now become part of the operator messaging experience, enhancing the experience of over 4 billion SMS users worldwide1. GSMA RCS advanced calling features will also be supported in the future by Google.

T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T follow UP, they all use Google Jibe network which supports UP.

What happened to educating yourself isn't difficult? They're not using Signal's protocol, they're using a protocol based upon Signal's which has been said multiple times in here by multiple people. Just like they're not using RCS UP, they're using their version of it which they control.

They are using the signal Protocol. Saying it is based on the signal protocol just means the foundation is the signal protocol.

Google Messages Whitepaper on how they implement E2EE with RCS in their Messages app.

They might roll out their own hub, there's no info on that. All we have is that they're implementing RCS UP and not Jibe late next year. Which, right now, only means an additional protocol like SMS and MMS. Which if that's all they do, will absolutely require carrier side support per GMSA and RCS standards. I don't have to know how it works, I only need to know what the people who control it says on how it works. They say it has to be implemented on your device and your carrier has to implement it. One or the other and it doesn't work. Just like SMS and MMS.

Jibe = Cloud service.
RCS = Protocol
UP = Guideline/Specification

Let me use it in a sentence.

Jibe is a cloud service owned by google which supports RCS services and connects to various RCS and communication Hubs. Jibe cloud services supports RCS clients that use the Universal Profile aka UP.

Since Apple is implementing RCS using the Universal profile as the guideline and specification, regardless of which hub they decide to use, it will work with Google RCS because Google Jibe cloud service supports the Universal Profile, and the Messages client is based on the Universal Profile.

I can't make it any clearer.

Apple can literally enable E2EE with Universal profile using the same signal protocol that google uses and it will work, it's not proprietary, until they come up with an updated universal profile standard with E2EE. But we know they won't because they want to claim iMessage is the most secure way to message between iPhones. It is an intentional omission which directly affects all iPhone users in terms of message security when messaging people outside and within the iOS ecosystem as they use SMS/MMS as fallback which is not secure. They know it is going to take a while for a standard to be agreed upon in terms of E2EE. My hope is since the major carriers have switched to Google, they can just adopt Signal and MLS as the E2EE protocols which google supports.

 

[cyb3rdud3]

Which one of those is a cross-platform, default (pre-installed) app?

Indeed, and that works globally without having to think whether someone has an account or not 👍

 

[scorpio vega]

Do you go in to buying an iphone unaware of its limitations and features?

It cracks me up whenever Android fans/users use this as an argument against IOS?
As someone who used Android for a better part of a Decade, Android is still a fragmented piece of software.
As someone who worked in the tech/sales industry for also a better part of decade and dealing with more complaints than IOS users, Android is a mess.

It's 2023 and we are still (In the US) releasing and selling phones with a generation or 2 older Operating system. We are still releasing phones with subpar hardware that can not even properly run or handle the operating system it is using simply for the sake to say 'android can run on anything'.

spoiler: it shouldn't.

It's 2023, and Google is one of the biggest tech companies in the world of all time and yet their ecosystem is still subpar.

If the OS limitation was such an issue, millions would not be wanting to use IOS. Plz show me what other mobile phone had people hanging outside days in advance to pick it up.

Sure, i can't change the color of the text bubbles or flash some random sofwate to my phone. But that's fine, nbecause i don't need to.

I am backed by a strong ecosystem that Microsoft (failed) to make and google is struggling to compete with.

So yes, I am well aware of what my phone can and can't do and I look past simple specs(Becuase iphones have in the past had 'weaker' specs and yet somehow still were better than most android products). I look at pride in the product. The software. The accessibility of support. The ecosystem. And there is no OEM close to it. Google even with its pixel line still treats it as an afterthought. Samsung is Samsung. I find their phones inferior for Android and I wished Sony or HTC were viable but i digress. I've never liked samsung lol.

Android is an operating system that can do so much and that's great but it does nothing well, IMO. A jack of all trades and a master of none.

 

[ki77erb]

It cracks me up whenever Android fans/users use this as an argument against IOS?
As someone who used Android for a better part of a Decade, Android is still a fragmented piece of software.
As someone who worked in the tech/sales industry for also a better part of decade and dealing with more complaints than IOS users, Android is a mess.

It's 2023 and we are still (In the US) releasing and selling phones with a generation or 2 older Operating system. We are still releasing phones with subpar hardware that can not even properly run or handle the operating system it is using simply for the sake to say 'android can run on anything'.

spoiler: it shouldn't.

It's 2023, and Google is one of the biggest tech companies in the world of all time and yet their ecosystem is still subpar.

If the OS limitation was such an issue, millions would not be wanting to use IOS. Plz show me what other mobile phone had people hanging outside days in advance to pick it up.

Sure, i can't change the color of the text bubbles or flash some random sofwate to my phone. But that's fine, nbecause i don't need to.

I am backed by a strong ecosystem that Microsoft (failed) to make and google is struggling to compete with.

So yes, I am well aware of what my phone can and can't do and I look past simple specs(Becuase iphones have in the past had 'weaker' specs and yet somehow still were better than most android products). I look at pride in the product. The software. The accessibility of support. The ecosystem. And there is no OEM close to it. Google even with its pixel line still treats it as an afterthought. Samsung is Samsung. I find their phones inferior for Android and I wished Sony or HTC were viable but i digress. I've never liked samsung lol.

Android is an operating system that can do so much and that's great but it does nothing well, IMO. A jack of all trades and a master of none.

All of this is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it. You clearly like iPhones and iOS better so that's what you use. Not everyone agrees with you and that's ok. I used Nexus phones back in the day and loved them but I was lured to OnePlus by the specs. On paper they blew everything out of the water, but in practice I was disappointed by their software. I now have a Pixel 7 and I love everything about it. That's the thing I love most about Android. You have options. Some people like Samsung, some like Pixel, some like Sony, Xiaomi, etc. And the custom OS scene is thriving because some people are really into that too. With Apple, you get their locked down phone and their closed source OS. And that is exactly what some people want for their reasons. A LOT of people actually. and that's totally cool! All this tribalism and shaming others for what they use it ridiculous and shallow and it comes from both sides.

 

[OneBar]

That is not how it works. RCS is the protocol, UP is specification agreed upon on how to implement RCS to ensure compatibility with everyone.

I never said otherwise.

If you follow the UP guideline and specification, your RCS implementation should work with anyone who follows the UP guideline and specification.

Again, I never said otherwise. I said essentially the same thing you just did: Implementation should work. There is the distinct possibility that Apple does something to break compatibility with Jibe/G-RCS.

T-Mobile, Verizon, AT&T follow UP, they all use Google Jibe network which supports UP.

And yet GMSA states that your carrier will have to implement UP if your device doesn't support JIBE. Apple will not support JIBE, so your carrier will have to implement UP at the least and/or Apple's own hub if they go that route.

They are using the signal Protocol. Saying it is based on the signal protocol just means the foundation is the signal protocol.

That's exactly what they've done.

Jibe = Cloud service.
RCS = Protocol
UP = Guideline/Specification

Let me use it in a sentence.

Jibe is a cloud service owned by google which supports RCS services and connects to various RCS and communication Hubs. Jibe cloud services supports RCS clients that use the Universal Profile aka UP.

Since Apple is implementing RCS using the Universal profile as the guideline and specification, regardless of which hub they decide to use, it will work with Google RCS because Google Jibe cloud service supports the Universal Profile, and the Messages client is based on the Universal Profile.

Theoretically and I agree. Not sure why I keep having to state this. Theoretically Apple implements UP, iMess and Android/G-Mess can tango a little easier. iMess will still have it's own stuff that won't cross-pollinate because it's iMess and not RCS stuff. However, the possibility still exists that Apple implements RCS and nothing substantively changes. We'll see. At the very least it will make for better texting when your phone switches off of iMess for whatever reason.

I can't make it any clearer.

Cool, I wasn't the one unclear on what was being said.

Apple can literally enable E2EE with Universal profile using the same signal protocol that google uses and it will work, it's not proprietary, until they come up with an updated universal profile standard with E2EE. But we know they won't because they want to claim iMessage is the most secure way to message between iPhones. It is an intentional omission which directly affects all iPhone users in terms of message security when messaging people outside and within the iOS ecosystem as they use SMS/MMS as fallback which is not secure. They know it is going to take a while for a standard to be agreed upon in terms of E2EE. My hope is since the major carriers have switched to Google, they can just adopt Signal and MLS as the E2EE protocols which google supports.

This I largely agree with. The problem is the same we had with going to SMS: cost. It costs your carrier to utilize either protocol and currently they don't really have any incentive to spend on infrastructure to switch to RCS as they're making bank on SMS. For instance, ATT, whom I use, only supports JIBE. They don't support UP. JIBE supports UP but your carrier has to implement UP across their whole network for it to work. That's why Google has their hub service and their own servers. JIBE is OTT, basically like iMess is.



Fun little tidbit, when your bubbles are green, it's not because you're talking to someone using Android, it's because you've switched to SMS. Which can happen to iPhone users as well.

 

[scorpio vega]

With Apple, you get their locked down phone and their closed source OS. And that is exactly what some people want for their reasons. A LOT of people actually. and that's totally cool! All this tribalism and shaming others for what they use it ridiculous and shallow and it comes from both sides.

Nobody is shaming you for your choice of OS. Regardless of what it may be. I am happy you are happy with android. I'm not. Ironically, the very thing you are trying to argue against you are doing by implying IOS being 'locked down' is a weaker OS or inferior OS.

Also, nowadays, based on your older posts you imply people being bullied for using Android over IOS...and that is an exaggeration. Perhaps in the early 2010s when the iPhone was exclusive to Att. Nobody cares about the color of a bubble as Android users try to make it out to be as trivial as it is. I do however like knowing automatically what OS someone has. As i explained to my roommate, I feel like Android users put more stock in the value of iphones to IOS users than actual iphone users.

Even when I used Android, i've never had anyone look down on me for using Android. If anything, I looked down on myself lmao.

 

[DakotaGuy]

And yet GMSA states that your carrier will have to implement UP if your device doesn't support JIBE. Apple will not support JIBE, so your carrier will have to implement UP at the least and/or Apple's own hub if they go that route.

I don't understand this. Jibe is just a server that serves the RCS UP for Google and the carriers. I don't understand the device supporting "Jibe" since that's just a server for the UP. If Apple builds RCS in they will serve it or the carriers will serve it probably using the Jibe server. No matter who serves it it'll communicate with Google phones because they use the UP. Just because Google adds a layer of encryption on top doesn't mean it still won't receive and send just basic RCS messages.

Apple has never been in the business of introducing things that don't work. Heck even Ping worked, but nobody used it. If Apple is going to integrate RCS messaging into Apple Messages it's going to work.

 

[gregmancuso]

Rcs betters the os by providing a superior communication standard to sms. This benefits all iPhone users

Side loading benefits anyone who intends to use it and harms nobody who doesn’t want to

USB c obviates the need for multiple cable types and brings the iPhone in line with every other Apple product

You simply do not understand what is happening

Your points ignore those the person you are responding to is making.

None of your comments actually "better the os".

RCS may better your Messages-based group chats by enabling higher quality media interchange and better group management. But RCS travels over data just as iMessage Messages traffic does. It is not a fall back but an alternate protocol that could be used when the target is a non-iMessage-copmatible client. Both still fall back to SMS at the carrier level using the spare bandwidth in the signaling channel. Neither is encrypted per the adopted specs - of course that will change as Apple works to have formal encryption support added to the GSMA standards before implementing. RCS is a "better" messaging experience and is not bettering the OS. Assuming, of course, you want or need the better interchange quality for group features.

Sideloading does not better the OS. It allows those that want use it to load any apps they may want without regard to source or quality. Some believe this will or may have a negative effect on privacy and security. Others do not. My point does not lean one way or the other; only this - side load will impact you app access and not the OS.

USB C really provides no benefit other than eliminating one plug end on the cable. Lightning really is better in all meaningful ways. It already supported USB 3.1 speeds. There is probably no reason that it could not support thunderbolt as well - other than the licensing and standard requiring USB C plug. The fragile part of the plug (the tab) is on the cord for Lightning and on the connector / motherboard for USB C. The only thing I am not sure about is power delivery and that is because there have bee no devices to support higher than 20-30W charging using Lightning. No one really knows.

I would not say that the commenter does not understand, but has different needs and desires.

 

[Brutus_Staley]

Who has said that?

Gruber. He spoke with someone at Apple. https://daringfireball.net/ I'm not sure how to direct it to that exact blog post, but it's there. Green bubbles and no end to end encryption. Like "FaceTime" on Android--it exists, just crippled. The main benefits seems to be better resolution of photos and videos. I think the real time typing and reactions are there, too.

Typical Apple way to bring Android on board while giving them a degraded experience.

 

[jvolkman]

Gruber. He spoke with someone at Apple. https://daringfireball.net/ I'm not sure how to direct it to that exact blog post, but it's there. Green bubbles and no end to end encryption. Like "FaceTime" on Android--it exists, just crippled. The main benefits seems to be better resolution of photos and videos. I think the real time typing and reactions are there, too.

Typical Apple way to bring Android on board while giving them a degraded experience.

It's here.

It says

Color me surprised by Apple’s change of heart here. Also color me utterly unsurprised that Apple has no intention to support Google’s proprietary extensions to RCS that allow for E2EE. It’s a disgrace, in my opinion, that E2EE wasn’t a foundational part of the RCS spec from the start, but if Apple is going to support RCS, they should support RCS by-the-spec, not Google’s proprietary version.

and

The worst part is that it’s not encrypted, and Apple caving and deciding to support it will expand, rather than contract, the amount of messaging that is not E2EE. And what’s the plan for when (if?) E2EE gets added to the official RCS spec? Will Apple then drop support for non-encrypted RCS messages? Or add some sort of indicator — a badge or different message color — to indicate which messages are truly encrypted and which are not?

It doesn't seem like Gruber has any information that says Apple's implementation won't be E2EE, just that they won't support over-the-top schemes like Google's that aren't in the GSMA spec. But it's possible Google and Apple working together can get such a scheme added to the spec. The linked article says

Apple says it won't be supporting any proprietary extensions that seek to add encryption on top of RCS and hopes, instead, to work with the GSM Association to add encryption to the standard.

 

[Brutus_Staley]

It's here.

It says

and


It doesn't seem like Gruber has any information that says Apple's implementation won't be E2EE, just that they won't support over-the-top schemes like Google's that aren't in the GSMA spec. But it's possible Google and Apple working together can get such a scheme added to the spec. The linked article says

I mean, it sounds like you're hoping against hope, but I guess we'll see ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[DakotaGuy]

I highly doubt that Tim Cook woke up on November 16, 2023 and thought “You know what we should do? Add support for RCS!” After that he proceeded to tell the rest of the executives that morning. They would not make the announcement if they did not fully research how they would implement the standard and already conducted meetings and planning with the GSMA, carriers and Google. There likely had to be assurances made by those parties before Apple is dropping resources on integrating a new standard into their messaging app.

It just surprises me that people think Apple would just make this announcement without a lot of pre-planning with how it will be implemented. It’s been in the works behind the scenes for some time. When Apple kept telling people they had no plan to bring RCS support to the iPhone they were lying. They knew, but just not ready to make the announcement or they were not yet satisfied with how implementation would work. Telling people anything other than “no plans” would have just fueled speculation.

Now we just have to wait and see what happens.