Apple to Allow In-App Third-Party Payment Options for First Time in the Netherlands

[dandy1117]

Hiking developer fees in response would only prove they’re an ugly, anticompetitive monopoly.

I think that observers keep focusing on the wrong thing when it comes to the App Store. It's Apple store and their pricing policy is the way that have chosen to monetize the ecosystem. It's clear that they are motivated by having a thriving app marketplace that actually encourages free apps from small developers.

The App Store policies have little to do with specific economics of the payment processing and bandwidth costs. Apple has chosen a progressive "tax" system to ensure the economic viability of the App Store and its supporting ecosystem. Large and popular app developers essentially fund the store so that there can be a bunch of free and low cost app developers. You can disagree with this model, but it has given birth to the largest and most successful app distribution in history.

 

[Wildkraut]

Great news and more to come.
2022/2023 will be very interesting, a few more ruling around the world will apply and Apple will have to bend over.
Specially when rulings for the whole EU surfaces.

Digital Market Act and Digital Services Act to the rescue.

 

[MacAddict1978]

There are streaming apps created by shady companies who ask their cam models to encourage their fans to buy tokens on their official website, in clear violation of Apple's policy. Most of them also make it so if you use Apple Pay, the number of tokens you purchase is about 30 to 40% fewer than if you buy them directly. As if that's not bad enough, the link to buy tokens on their official site will selectively leak your credit card information to scammers, especially if the cards are foreign.

This kind of ruling will let similar scams take place out in the open without the unsuspecting having any kind of recourse in case they are scammed. Most people will be easily led to buy tokens outside of App Store and under the watchful eyes of Apple when developers make the tradeoff skews so much to one side. Except the hidden risk isn't explained to you until it's too late.

The security vs. freedom argument is really a red herring. It's always about finding the right balance between the two. Today it's dating apps. Tomorrow it'll be any app that incurs recurring payments. And before you know it, there is no longer any kind of policing in the App Store and you're out there to fend for yourself against pirates and looters (figuratively speaking).

Besides the fact you're talking about using porn sites to tip people for their tricks and that porn sites are the shadiest side of internet security known to man....

If we back out your porn example, offering you describe exactly why Apple doesn't want user to have a choice. Say you want to sell virtual currency for a mobile game and charge $2.99 for 100 coins. If you had a choice to use Apple's in payment system or an alternate credit card processor of the developers choice, unless the developer is a complete idiot they would incentivize you to do the latter.

Apple will take 30% of that $2.99 netting the developer $2.09.

Developer offers 50 extra coins if you use their payment processor, it's virtual goods so it cost them nothing, you get a better deal, and they pay 5% credit card processing and get $2.84.

Apple knows it's days are numbered with forced use of their payment system. It's a smart business move but the average consumer isn't smart. You are getting less and paying more. Amazon has it's own curated Android App store... one of the incentives is that developers don't pay a 30% commission and users of that store get bonuses and freebies. It also didn't break the Google Play store by Google allowing third party App stores on Android and sideloading, or create security issues. Not a one.

 

[wbeasley]

i'm liking these App Store changes...

Let them get what governments are asking for and still charge the app owner a percent for the infrastructure.
And give them the headaches of dealing with customer complaints and billing issues.

I just dont get all the whinging.
App Store makes it super easy to upload your wares, sell them and get paid.
You spend your resources on developing good software.

Physical stores always charged much higher percentage for physical goods (even when it was software in a box).
And the headaches of manufacturing and distribution, shelf space charges, advertising in store, returns of old goods.

The 15% charge for small devs and next year subs is a reasonable overhead for the convenience.
Credit cards have charged fees for transactions. At variable rates depending upon your business clout.
Apple have actually swung the charges towards smaller devs.

It will be interesting to see how customers react.
Are they going to continue to just push a button to BUY when APple already has their secure payment details?
Or are they going to reload details with someone they dont necessarily know or trust?

I use PayPal for these one offs wherever I can.
I dont even give Google my details for their PlayStore - I'll buy a prepaid voucher card.

So sit back and see how it plays out.

 

[SFjohn]

Apple is still going to charge Dutch Dating Apps 30%, on top of that the dating apps will have to pay for their own payment processing solutions (add another 3%). So why are they doing this? Because your personal data & transactions have value, and the Dutch Dating Apps will be selling that information to the highest bidder to reduce their costs. Apple will make more money this way, but users will have a much poorer experience under this plan. Good luck with what happens to your information & money, once it’s outside Apples’s walled garden. Be careful what you wish for.

 

[SFjohn]

I do find it curious why the Dutch Dating Apps just didn’t move to a web based platform, I guess their bean counters figured out they’d make even less that way.

 

[Abazigal]

Apple always sees the loss of any money-making opportunity as "not in our users' best interest." Marketing and Legal go hand in hand with this company to an unusual degree.

Well, in the very least, I as the consumer am indifferent to how much the developer has to pay Apple, really. App pricing is not going to change, and as stated above, I lose the ability to monitor and manage said subscription via the App Store, which is an added inconvenience on my end.

It doesn’t benefit the end user.

 

[lysingur]

Besides the fact you're talking about using porn sites to tip people for their tricks and that porn sites are the shadiest side of internet security known to man....

If we back out your porn example, offering you describe exactly why Apple doesn't want user to have a choice. Say you want to sell virtual currency for a mobile game and charge $2.99 for 100 coins. If you had a choice to use Apple's in payment system or an alternate credit card processor of the developers choice, unless the developer is a complete idiot they would incentivize you to do the latter.

Apple will take 30% of that $2.99 netting the developer $2.09.

Developer offers 50 extra coins if you use their payment processor, it's virtual goods so it cost them nothing, you get a better deal, and they pay 5% credit card processing and get $2.84.

Apple knows it's days are numbered with forced use of their payment system. It's a smart business move but the average consumer isn't smart. You are getting less and paying more. Amazon has it's own curated Android App store... one of the incentives is that developers don't pay a 30% commission and users of that store get bonuses and freebies. It also didn't break the Google Play store by Google allowing third party App stores on Android and sideloading, or create security issues. Not a one.

Either you've a very limited understanding of what streaming entails or you're the kind of person that tends to assume the worst in everybody.

Apps wouldn't even have made it to the App Store if it's pornographic in nature. How old are you anyway? Have you heard of Twitch? Tons of musicians and singers stream there as well as young men and women who do nothing but talk. Or maybe you think it's pornographic to goggle at and talk to the opposite of sex online?

 

[SFjohn]

Either you've a very limited understanding of what streaming entails or you're the kind of person that tends to assume the worst in everybody.

Apps wouldn't even have made it to the App Store if it's pornographic in nature. How old are you anyway? Have you heard of Twitch? Tons of musicians and singers stream there as well as young men and women who do nothing but talk. Or maybe you think it's pornographic to goggle at and talk to the opposite of sex online?

Safari is absolutely the best for porn!

 

[Cosmosent]

Up until recently, Apple had the luxury of ONLY playing Offense.

Now, they must pivot to playing ONLY Defense !

On June 7th, the General Public will discover that a complete Break Up of the App Store is a real possibility !

 

[AMH0829]

Apple has announced that it will allow third-party payment options for in-app purchases for dating apps in the Netherlands, in the first ever concession of its kind.

In a message posted on its developer site late on Friday, Apple announced that it will comply with a Netherlands Authority for Consumers and Markets (ACM) ruling that compels the company to allow third-party payment services to pay for in-app purchases in dating apps. Dutch dating apps that link out to or use a third-party in-app payment provider will still need to pay a commission to Apple on transactions.To implement third-party payment options in Dutch dating apps, developers will need to use Apple's entitlements, but the company warned developers that this will involve additional responsibilities and pose a number of new risks:Apple added that it disagrees with the ACM ruling, believes it is "not in our users' best interest," and has appealed the decision to a higher court. Specifically, Apple explained that it is "concerned these changes could compromise the user experience, and create new threats to user privacy and data security."

Apple highlighted the benefits of its own payment system to developers, which continues to be available as an option for developers to use in Dutch dating apps:The order originated from a Dutch investigation started in 2019 that examined whether Apple's business practices amounted to an abuse of market power. The investigation included a complaint from Match Group, the owner of Tinder, which claimed that Apple's rules prevented it from communicating with its customers directly about payments.

The ACM said that Apple imposes "unreasonable conditions" by forbidding user choice about in-app purchase methods. Apple was warned that it had to allow dating apps to offer third-party payment options by Saturday, January 15 or face a fine of up to 50 million euros ($57 million). Apple said that it will provide further information about the mandated changes shortly.

Article Link: Apple to Allow In-App Third-Party Payment Options for First Time in the Netherlands

No matter the future of this for other regions or apps on iOS, there is a 0% chance I will ever use a third party payment option for in-app purchases.

 

[svish]

Will be hearing more about 3rd party payment options in other regions as well. Legal hurdles in multiple countries for Apple.

 

[patent10021]

I bet if Apple pulled out, all the politicians using iPhones would have seconds thoughts. And those politicians wouldn't want to move to Android because they prefer the security iPhones provide for their crypto apps.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

There are streaming apps created by shady companies who ask their cam models to encourage their fans to buy tokens on their official website, in clear violation of Apple's policy. Most of them also make it so if you use Apple Pay, the number of tokens you purchase is about 30 to 40% fewer than if you buy them directly. As if that's not bad enough, the link to buy tokens on their official site will selectively leak your credit card information to scammers, especially if the cards are foreign.

This kind of ruling will let similar scams take place out in the open without the unsuspecting having any kind of recourse in case they are scammed. Most people will be easily led to buy tokens outside of App Store and under the watchful eyes of Apple when developers make the tradeoff skews so much to one side. Except the hidden risk isn't explained to you until it's too late.

The security vs. freedom argument is really a red herring. It's always about finding the right balance between the two. Today it's dating apps. Tomorrow it'll be any app that incurs recurring payments. And before you know it, there is no longer any kind of policing in the App Store and you're out there to fend for yourself against pirates and looters (figuratively speaking).

I'm sorry, but the recourse is exactly the same as with 99% of every other instance you use your card outside the Apple Store, it's to talk with your bank, Or do you never use your card on other sites and stores? eBay, Amazon, steam, random store with some online product? This isn't the wild west but a highly regulated market with security standards

scams are a regular thing on Apple Store. Free trial, pay $300 a week after two days. Fake apps, misleading IAP in games etc. etc. apple isn't perfect, and you should pretend like the world going to end when you are granted the option to use competing methods of payment. Suddenly apple needs to justify a 30% tax compared to competitors

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Surely apple will just make up this lost money elsewhere? Be that with higher developer fees or device prices as this happens more and more apple will look to make this lost revenue any way they can.

Lol get out of here with that bullcrap. iPhone prices have gone from 200$ to 500$, 600$ and now 1000$ ?

they will squese any margin they can irrespective of profitability of their store

 

[Sophisticatednut]

That's only if the developers lower the price. It's the developers who set the price that you see and that you pay.

I'd imagine most developers would still charge the same for IAP items even if they had the commission fees lowered.

But I'm happy to be wrong.

I would just be happy to not have to line Apple's pockets any more than I need to, I would rather that money go to the developer who provided me with a great app. My iPhone already costs enough to make them the richest company in the world

 

[Sophisticatednut]

So what's the actual issue here?

Is 15%, 27%, or 30% too high? Is anything higher than 0% too high in your mind? Should platforms be forbidden to collect any platform fees or commission fees? At all?

What exactly do you want governments to "stop" here?

The issue isn't paying for app store apps. Apple are still free to take a 30% cut. The problem is, apple shouldn't be allowed to take a cut when it's no longer on the store. if apple takes 11% cut making the developers efectivly pay 15% anyway it would be abuse of power as this disincentivise developers from using other solutions and effectively anticompetitive behavior. The industry standard is to have a commission between 0-5% of earnings and 0$ to thousands a year for a developer members fee depending on what services are requested. So apple is actually an outlier on their sales commission.

Apple is still going to charge Dutch Dating Apps 30%, on top of that the dating apps will have to pay for their own payment processing solutions (add another 3%). So why are they doing this? Because your personal data & transactions have value, and the Dutch Dating Apps will be selling that information to the highest bidder to reduce their costs. Apple will make more money this way, but users will have a much poorer experience under this plan. Good luck with what happens to your information & money, once it’s outside Apples’s walled garden. Be careful what you wish for.

Unlikely to pass legal scrutiny, and straight up anticompetitive. Extremely unlikely, apple will be able to collect this fee without the government suing them.

our information seems to be safe with 99% of other online platforms, it will likely be the exact same now as well. This isn't America, businesses aren't free to screw you over.

I do find it curious why the Dutch Dating Apps just didn’t move to a web based platform, I guess their bean counters figured out they’d make even less that way.

They already have web based platforms. and aren't relevant to the ruling becasu the vast majority of users end up using the app instead of the website on their phone

 

[hans1972]

I'm sorry, but the recourse is exactly the same as with 99% of every other instance you use your card outside the Apple Store, it's to talk with your bank, Or do you never use your card on other sites and stores?

I'm pretty sure most people in the Netherlands don't use credit cards but debet cards. If using debet cards the funds have already left your bank account and it makes the procedure more difficult.

Anyhow, unless it's obvious it's fraud, the bank will not automatically refund your money. They want you to contact the developer first and you often have to prove you have tried to get the money there first.

Also the bank don't accept any reasons for a return. Apple usually does and you don't have to contact the developer at all.

Let's say I stay a weekend at a hotel in Stockholm. When I get back I call my bank to get the money back. They'll ask: Why are you asking for a refund? The towels were to small.
Have you contacted the hotel? No, I don't want to.

The bank will not return my at this stage. Apple would.

 

[hans1972]

The industry standard is to have a commission between 0-5% of earnings and 0$ to thousands a year for a developer members fee depending on what services are requested. So apple is actually an outlier on their sales commission.

The software industry has had 30% as a standard for a long time until recently.

Twitch: 50%
YouTube ad revenue: 45%
Playstation Store: 30% reportedly
Steam: 30%, 20-25% for very large developers
Microsoft Store Xbox: 30%
Galaxy Store: 30% but can be negotiated.
Amazon App Store: 30%, 20% for a few.
App Store: 30%, 15% for most developers recently.
Google Play Store: 30%, 15% after a year
OnlyFans: 20%
Facebook Fan Subscription: Plans to take 20%
Microsoft Store PC: 15%, 12% for some recently.
Epic Store: 12%
Substack: 10%
Patreon: 5-12%
Tumblr: 5%

Less than 5% isn't a standard at all.

 

[hans1972]

The issue isn't paying for app store apps. Apple are still free to take a 30% cut. The problem is, apple shouldn't be allowed to take a cut when it's no longer on the store.

The app is in the App Store.

There is no legal requirements which makes it illegal for a company to get money from another company because the transaction happens outside the first companies control.

If it is, the entire business modell for Epic's Unreal Engine would be illegal.

 

[mrochester]

The app is in the App Store.

There is no legal requirements which makes it illegal for a company to get money from another company because the transaction happens outside the first companies control.

If it is, the entire business modell for Epic's Unreal Engine would be illegal.

Plus these apps are still using Apple’s intellectual property, which Apple charges a commission to use.

 

[wbeasley]

Protected from Apple’s 30% monopoly pricing, yes.

If the consumer wants Apple’s “protection” so badly, they’d be willing to pay 30% more for it.

if the developer charges 30% less then they make no more money than if they just used the app store.
and they have to handle all the payments and refunds and possible fraud.

hardly a win then

 

[Sophisticatednut]

I'm pretty sure most people in the Netherlands don't use credit cards but debet cards. If using debet cards the funds have already left your bank account and it makes the procedure more difficult.

Most Europeans don't use credit cards but debit cards.

Anyhow, unless it's obvious it's fraud, the bank will not automatically refund your money. They want you to contact the developer first and you often have to prove you have tried to get the money there first.

And how is this a problem to be required to contact the company first? otherwise chose the more expensive option to pay thou apple, or file a complaint to the government for fraud etc

Also the bank don't accept any reasons for a return. Apple usually does and you don't have to contact the developer at all.

apple doesn't accept any reason, you must do it within 30 days and not used the product such as in game currency, movies you watched etc etc

Let's say I stay a weekend at a hotel in Stockholm. When I get back I call my bank to get the money back. They'll ask: Why are you asking for a refund? The towels were to small.
Have you contacted the hotel? No, I don't want to.

The bank will not return my at this stage. Apple would.

i can 100% guarantee that apple will not grant you a refund as you have already used the service without bringing a complaint first.

Secondly, the hotels will most of the time give you a partial refund if the services didn't meat the description provided.
And they have legal obligations to refund you if they refuse

The software industry has had 30% as a standard for a long time until recently.

not at all, you provided a list of stores. i talked about developers providing tools and suport.

Twitch: 50%
YouTube ad revenue: 45%

Have free competition as you can upload the exact same video anywhere

Google Play Store: 30%, 15% after a year
Playstation Store: 30% reportedly
Steam: 30%, 20-25% for very large developers
Microsoft Store Xbox: 30%
Galaxy Store: 30% but can be negotiated.
Amazon App Store: 30%, 20% for a few.

they are stores, and you can post your app/game key/ physical copy anywhere you want and still pay 0% commission on the out of store sales.
Edit: example selling my game on galaxy store and i will pay google play 0% of my sales on it. selling my game on google play store and i still pay 0% to galaxy store etc

App Store: 30%, 15% for most developers recently.

Can only be sold on apple app store only, wiht only apple provided software and with apple only provided payment solution

OnlyFans: 20%
Facebook Fan Subscription: Plans to take 20%
Microsoft Store PC: 15%, 12% for some recently.
Epic Store: 12%
Substack: 10%
Patreon: 5-12%
Tumblr: 5%

same as the above, you can provide a carbon copy and sell your app/service anywhere and pay 0% to any of these that yo udont use.

Less than 5% isn't a standard at all.

it is.
Unity: free. earning 100k a year they provide 40-200$ per account a month
Epic UE : free. licensing fee 5% of revenue above 1million for using the engine
Gamemaker studio: 3-80$ a month
Godot: free
Android studio: free
Eclipse IDE: free
Netbeans IDE: free
apple Xcode: 99$year + 15-30% fee on all sales

The app is in the App Store.

when it's on my device, it's not on apples app store anymore.

There is no legal requirements which makes it illegal for a company to get money from another company because the transaction happens outside the first companies control.

There are regulation against such practices, these are known as anticompetitive behavior nad will be judged on case by case basis.

If it is, the entire business modell for Epic's Unreal Engine would be illegal.

the crucial difference is competition exist, and you aren't arbitrary limited

Plus these apps are still using Apple’s intellectual property, which Apple charges a commission to use.

do you have any proof of this IP you are talking about? Are you claiming Cydia developers are illegal? Every court in Europe would laugh you out of court.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

if the developer charges 30% less then they make no more money than if they just used the app store.
and they have to handle all the payments and refunds and possible fraud.

hardly a win then

they would also have more freedom for price brackets. it could as easily be as having 10% lower price and earn more just on the fact they keep 95% of the revenue instead.

 

[mrochester]

do you have any proof of this IP you are talking about? Are you claiming Cydia developers are illegal? Every court in Europe would laugh you out of court.

Huh? All developers use Apple’s APIs. That’s the IP we are talking about.