Apple to Begin Paying $16 Billion to Ireland Around March Amid Legal Battle With European Commission

[KazKam]

They do? So why the fine?

Pretty sure I addressed that in the last line. The "fine" is the EU looking for a handout from deep pockets. This article is not about Apple paying the trumped-up fine (no pun intended), it's about Apple putting the money in an escrow until they can expose the EU for the bunch of whiney beggars and thieves they are in court.

 

[69650]

Stop crying and pay your ****ing taxes like I PROPERLY do every year.

Damn right. Well said.
[doublepost=1516291672][/doublepost]

Ireland have never been wealthier in their history, and it's all due to these tax breaks. They were beating the crap out of other countries when it came to business-friendliness. But other broke EU countries have what always exist in the progressive mindset - envy.

Ireland should do a Irexit from the EU. Why should a country subjugate itself into the whims of unelected officials in Brussels?

So many people still don’t understand this issue. Ireland can set their corporation tax rate whatever they like - as long as every business gets the same rate. The problem here was that they gave Apple a special rate while everyone else had to pay the standard rate. That’s illegal under EU law because it’s blatant discrimination. If I had a business in Ireland I would not be happy that I had to pay 12% business tax while Apple only had to pay 1% business tax.

What if the US government let Apple pay a lower business tax rate than every other business. Would that be fair?

 

[The Mercurian]

It also would put a lot of accountancy firms out of business. But hey, why make things simple when you can make it complicated?

Accountancy is logical and mathematical yes ? So in this age of computers why is it accountancy not automated ?

 

[kemal]

This would all be A-OK with me if the Irish government would force Guinness to sell the real 8% ABV Stout in the USA! That stuff we get now is water old Irish ladies wouldn't even drink at tea time.

 

[Bacillus]

Stop crying and pay your ****ing taxes like I PROPERLY do every year.

All the "right" behavior on tax, enivronment, foreign exploitation etc. etc. is being engineered by tax, legal and PR departments - so formally they do what you, me and anybody else ask and expect them to do.
But in the meantime...

 

[The Mercurian]

Have you seen how much that costs every year? No thanks!

It's a bizarre situation though. I really don't think all loopholes can be fixed, since multi-national entities like Apple can just skirt through the gaps between national company laws and tax codes, unless there are universal agreements among all countries.

I don't really see why Ireland is effectively being 'rewarded' here. The original loophole might not have been intentional, but I don't believe for one second that the government and Revenue didn't know how our company law was being abused. Apple certainly paid far less than they should, Ireland probably has already received what we should, and our lax laws have enabled Apple to avoid their tax burden in other countries. No reason why we should receive it.

I still think it's funny to see the government fighting tooth and nail to NOT receive this money - as someone who's been fined thousands of euros, and had my bank account suspended on multiple occasions due to not being able to pay my tax on time (fining someone out of debt, there's an inspired idea!).

So I think you are missing a subtle point here yourself - the government and Revenue appear to have facilitated Apple in using a loophole. The actual agreements are secret and Revenue deny such things......but really there isn't any other alternative that explains all this.

Ireland have never been wealthier in their history, and it's all due to these tax breaks. They were beating the crap out of other countries when it came to business-friendliness. But other broke EU countries have what always exist in the progressive mindset - envy.

Ireland should do a Irexit from the EU. Why should a country subjugate itself into the whims of unelected officials in Brussels?

Ireland owes the EU alot though and unlike the UK the average man and woman on the street knows this. Most of the motorways on which the celtic tiger was built were paid for by the EU for example. Almost no-one in Ireland would vote for Irexit, even if Brexit goes ahead.

 

[H2SO4]

Pretty sure I addressed that in the last line. The "fine" is the EU looking for a handout from deep pockets. This article is not about Apple paying the trumped-up fine (no pun intended), it's about Apple putting the money in an escrow until they can expose the EU for the bunch of whiney beggars and thieves they are in court.

A law was transgressed so they need to pay.

 

[whooleytoo]

So I think you are missing a subtle point here yourself - the government and Revenue appear to have facilitated Apple in using a loophole. The actual agreements are secret and Revenue deny such things......but really there isn't any other alternative that explains all this.

I don't know how implicit or explicit any such deal/agreement was. Tim Cook did inadvertently mention a deal, which the Taoiseach here denied.

To be honest, I think the EU have every right to be aggrieved - Apple has done business in several countries and not paid the tax which other companies had to. I don't think the basis of the EU ruling is correct though, I don't think Ireland gave Apple a special deal, Apple just is availing of a law loophole which is (was) open to all.

I don't see how or why Ireland should benefit from this, I can't see any logical argument where Ireland lost out in this tax arrangement.

Ireland owes the EU alot though and unlike the UK the average man and woman on the street knows this. Most of the motorways on which the celtic tiger was built were paid for by the EU for example. Almost no-one in Ireland would vote for Irexit, even if Brexit goes ahead.

Yup, I think Ireland is massively more pro-EU than other nations, in spite of the Nice and Maastricht referenda (which largely had internal reasons for the results). If the EU were to fail, I think Ireland would be one of the last nations out the door!

 

[cmwade77]

How about a simple solution: Eliminate ALL taxes as they currently stand and implement a simple Sales Tax, not to exceed 10% total (federal, state and local or equivalent) combined at point of sale for all good and services.

By definition, Tithing is 10% of income and most churches are able to do far more for the world with that 10% that any government in the world can do with a lot more money than that. It is time we expect the governments of the world to step up and reform themselves so that they live within modest means.

It also would mean everyone is paying the same percentage of their income in taxes, which ultimately makes it fair for all.

 

[cfurlin]

Stop crying and pay your ****ing taxes like I PROPERLY do every year.

I'll bet you never take advantage of loopholes or fudge a little when PROPERLY doing your taxes, right?

Sure you don't. Sure.

 

[bladerunner2000]

GOOD.

 

[KazKam]

A law was transgressed so they need to pay.

Allegedly.

 

[citysnaps]

Not to worry. Apple will simply add that extra cost onto the products and services they sell.

As they should.

 

[TheShadowKnows!]

With all the ill-informed comments, some pre-pubescent, I reached-out for the definition of the "Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" tax avoidance technique, played like a yoyo on the EU infrastructure by Apple, Microsoft, Google, and other large tech multi-nationals.

So Apple is not unique to the creative accounting game. But, try doing this with your TurboTax filing./s

Excerpted from Investopedia:https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

What is the 'Double Irish With A Dutch Sandwich'?
The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich is a tax avoidance technique employed by certain large corporations, involving the use of a combination of Irish and Dutch subsidiary companies to shift profits to low or no tax jurisdictions. The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich technique involves sending profits first through one Irish company, then to a Dutch company and finally to a second Irish company headquartered in a tax haven. This technique has allowed certain corporations to reduce their overall corporate tax rates dramatically.

How it Works
The technique involves two Irish companies, a Dutch company and an offshore company located in a tax haven. The first Irish company is used to receive large royalties on goods, such as iPhones sold to U.S. consumers. The U.S. profits, and therefore taxes, are dramatically lowered, and the Irish taxes on the royalties are very low. Due to a loophole in Irish laws, the company can then transfer its profits tax-free to the offshore company, where they can remain untaxed for years.

The second Irish company is used for sales to European customers. It is also taxed at a low rate and can send its profits to the first Irish company using a Dutch company as an intermediary. If done right, there is no tax paid anywhere. The first Irish company now has all the money and can again send it onward to the tax haven company.

 

[H2SO4]

Allegedly.

We'll see. Also ignorance of the law is no defence right?
[doublepost=1516295392][/doublepost]

With all the ill-informed comments, some pre-pubescent, I reached-out for the definition of the "Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" tax avoidance technique, played like a yoyo on the EU infrastructure by Apple, Microsoft, Google, and other large tech multi-nationals.

So Apple is not unique to the creative accounting game. But, try doing this with your TurboTax filing./s

Excerpted from Investopia:https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

What is the 'Double Irish With A Dutch Sandwich'?
The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich is a tax avoidance technique employed by certain large corporations, involving the use of a combination of Irish and Dutch subsidiary companies to shift profits to low or no tax jurisdictions. The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich technique involves sending profits first through one Irish company, then to a Dutch company and finally to a second Irish company headquartered in a tax haven. This technique has allowed certain corporations to reduce their overall corporate tax rates dramatically.

How it Works
The technique involves two Irish companies, a Dutch company and an offshore company located in a tax haven. The first Irish company is used to receive large royalties on goods, such as iPhones sold to U.S. consumers. The U.S. profits, and therefore taxes, are dramatically lowered, and the Irish taxes on the royalties are very low. Due to a loophole in Irish laws, the company can then transfer its profits tax-free to the offshore company, where they can remain untaxed for years.

The second Irish company is used for sales to European customers. It is also taxed at a low rate and can send its profits to the first Irish company using a Dutch company as an intermediary. If done right, there is no tax paid anywhere. The first Irish company now has all the money and can again send it onward to the tax haven company.

It stinks, by all of them.

 

[simonmet]

And here I think we see the real reason Apple is taking their cash hoard out of the EU as quickly as possible.
[doublepost=1516295698][/doublepost]

Ireland have never been wealthier in their history, and it's all due to these tax breaks. They were beating the crap out of other countries when it came to business-friendliness. But other broke EU countries have what always exist in the progressive mindset - envy.

Ireland should do a Irexit from the EU. Why should a country subjugate itself into the whims of unelected officials in Brussels?

Isn’t there a European Parliament with, like, elected MEPs including from Ireland that these so called “unelected officials” are answering to?

 

[Col4bin]

You see, there IS a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow! $16B is a lot of dough.

 

[Gasu E.]

Irish corporate tax rate (12.5%) is still less than the 15% the US government want...so.....
.

This issue was not about the relative tax rates. It's about the fact that Ireland was providing zero-tax incentives in violation of EU law. EU laws are intended to level the playing field between EU countries through normalization of tax laws. Ireland appears to have violated those laws, violating the agreements they signed when joining the EU.

 

[simonmet]

With all the ill-informed comments, some pre-pubescent, I reached-out for the definition of the "Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" tax avoidance technique, played like a yoyo on the EU infrastructure by Apple, Microsoft, Google, and other large tech multi-nationals.

So Apple is not unique to the creative accounting game. But, try doing this with your TurboTax filing./s

Excerpted from Investopia:https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/double-irish-with-a-dutch-sandwich.asp

What is the 'Double Irish With A Dutch Sandwich'?
The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich is a tax avoidance technique employed by certain large corporations, involving the use of a combination of Irish and Dutch subsidiary companies to shift profits to low or no tax jurisdictions. The double Irish with a Dutch sandwich technique involves sending profits first through one Irish company, then to a Dutch company and finally to a second Irish company headquartered in a tax haven. This technique has allowed certain corporations to reduce their overall corporate tax rates dramatically.

How it Works
The technique involves two Irish companies, a Dutch company and an offshore company located in a tax haven. The first Irish company is used to receive large royalties on goods, such as iPhones sold to U.S. consumers. The U.S. profits, and therefore taxes, are dramatically lowered, and the Irish taxes on the royalties are very low. Due to a loophole in Irish laws, the company can then transfer its profits tax-free to the offshore company, where they can remain untaxed for years.

The second Irish company is used for sales to European customers. It is also taxed at a low rate and can send its profits to the first Irish company using a Dutch company as an intermediary. If done right, there is no tax paid anywhere. The first Irish company now has all the money and can again send it onward to the tax haven company.

Thanks very much for this. When explained so plainly and clearly like this it makes the whole thing seem even more (painfully) ridiculous.

Just how was this allowed to go on for so long? It highlights pretty significant failings in elected governance in many countries in my opinion.

 

[Gasu E.]

Do you take deductions? How about tax credits? Do you pay just your states income taxes or other states as well? .

Sure I do. And every deduction and credit I take is taken just as intended by the legislators who wrote the laws. That's not what Apple and others do-- a "double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" is not the result of a government entity writing in a tax break, but Apple finding inconsistencies between the laws of different countries and using fake "shell" companies to pretend to move money and non-tangible assets around. There's only one way to close those "loopholes"-- it's for the legislators of all countries to get together and write a single consistent tax code. You know the other name for that? It's called "one world government". Is that what you favor?

 

[pat500000]

Run me my money!

 

[Gasu E.]

Just how was this allowed to go on for so long? It highlights pretty significant failings in elected governance in many countries in my opinion.

No, it's the result of every country having their own tax code. The alternative would be a single tax code that applies across all countries. World government?

 

[npmacuser5]

End of the day, business is All about their businesses. No social conscience unless it benefits the business. Doing the right thing, never going to happen unless it benefits the business. Every decision is totally centered on the business. I do not feel sorry for them when they get caught bending the rules, as it was a business decision.

 

[TheShadowKnows!]

Thanks very much for this. When explained so plainly and clearly like this it makes the whole thing seem even more (painfully) ridiculous.

Just how was this allowed to go on for so long? It highlights pretty significant failings in elected governance in many countries in my opinion.

In this tax avoidance scheme, the first Irish company (first-half of the irish sandwich) is granted all royalties for the technology that underlies the product (an Apple iPhone in this case); whereas this is uber non-sensical, as that first Irish company is probably no more than a phantom presence on an accounting ledger.

This should make Al Capone yearn for today's fiscal times./s

 

[whooleytoo]

Thanks very much for this. When explained so plainly and clearly like this it makes the whole thing seem even more (painfully) ridiculous.

Just how was this allowed to go on for so long? It highlights pretty significant failings in elected governance in many countries in my opinion.

The Irish government feigned ignorance. But it's obviously benefitting by making Ireland a very attractive destination to do business.

The best part is - unlike many tax deals, they didn't have to offer a tax rate cut in order to attract more tax revenue overall. They effectively offered a tax cut (/dodge) for overseas revenue routed through Irish companies. Or to put it another way - Ireland maintained its tax rate while offering a ~100% tax cut for revenue generated elsewhere.

I've no problem with the low corporate tax rate - it seems to work really well for the country. But the Double Irish loophole was ridiculous.