Apple to Begin Paying $16 Billion to Ireland Around March Amid Legal Battle With European Commission

[BuddyTronic]

They do? So why the fine?

"Why" they are getting "fined" by a government is because the government is incorrectly interpreting the law!

That is why.

Government assessment of a situation is often wrong - don't forget that!

Apple is fighting it and is confident that it will win over the EU fools who think they can throw their weight around just because they are a government.

Apple is right here and will prove it - but it will take a few years and will create some employment for more lawyers.


Our opinions are not worth much here - but Apple has told us how it is. If you want to talk about rich companies that can afford this and that, remember that some of us find that to be insulting.
[doublepost=1516299187][/doublepost]

Damn right. Well said.
[doublepost=1516291672][/doublepost]

So many people still don’t understand this issue. Ireland can set their corporation tax rate whatever they like - as long as every business gets the same rate. The problem here was that they gave Apple a special rate while everyone else had to pay the standard rate. That’s illegal under EU law because it’s blatant discrimination. If I had a business in Ireland I would not be happy that I had to pay 12% business tax while Apple only had to pay 1% business tax.

What if the US government let Apple pay a lower business tax rate than every other business. Would that be fair?

How do you know that? Your interpretation is wrong. Come back in 5 years and Apple lawyers will prove it. Different brackets of revenue etc can be taxed at different rates. Your smaller company pays 12% perhaps, but if you grow your company to the size of Apple, maybe you too can pay the same rate. Could be as simple as that. Don't assume too much here is my advice. The lawyers will know more than you or me on this - so why even speculate about that?

You doubt Apple? Bet on it. Go set up a bet on a website and back and link to it, and we don't have to even discuss it. Does bitbet still work for that?
[doublepost=1516299389][/doublepost]

End of the day, business is All about their businesses. No social conscience unless it benefits the business. Doing the right thing, never going to happen unless it benefits the business. Every decision is totally centered on the business. I do not feel sorry for them when they get caught bending the rules, as it was a business decision.

You view this with a strong bias I'd say.

Let's see what the court says - remember this is tax law stuff and it might be complicated

 

[H2SO4]

"Why" they are getting "fined" by a government is because the government is incorrectly interpreting the law!

That is why.

Government assessment of a situation is often wrong - don't forget that!

Apple is fighting it and is confident that it will win over the EU fools who think they can throw their weight around just because they are a government.

Apple is right here and will prove it - but it will take a few years and will create some employment for more lawyers.


Our opinions are not worth much here - but Apple has told us how it is. If you want to talk about rich companies that can afford this and that, remember that some of us find that to be insulting.
[doublepost=1516299187][/doublepost]


How do you know that? Your interpretation is wrong. Come back in 5 years and Apple lawyers will prove it. Different brackets of revenue etc can be taxed at different rates. Your smaller company pays 12% perhaps, but if you grow your company to the size of Apple, maybe you too can pay the same rate. Could be as simple as that. Don't assume too much here is my advice. The lawyers will know more than you or me on this - so why even speculate about that?

You doubt Apple? Bet on it. Go set up a bet on a website and back and link to it, and we don't have to even discuss it. Does bitbet still work for that?
[doublepost=1516299389][/doublepost]

You view this with a strong bias I'd say.

Let's see what the court says - remember this is tax law stuff and it might be complicated

You find it insulting when a company, (an entity - not a person), has accusations levelled against it? Wow.
They made a dodgy deal. Now they are caught.

 

[TheShadowKnows!]

For those who need pictures to understand the underbelly of the "Double-Irish with a Dutch Sandwich" take a look at the following graphic -- and check the date, April 28, 2012.

This technique is far from new, and has been going for more than a decade -- even since the turn of this century -- while some multinationals claim today to have met not only the rule but the spirit of the tax laws, leveraging the questionable transfer of product royalties to an Irish shell company.

TC, we are looking at you, bud /s

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/04/28/business/Double-Irish-With-A-Dutch-Sandwich.html

 

[Mike MA]

Good.

 

[SarcasticJoe]

Perhaps EU lawmakers should close loopholes. Rather than whine when accountants and tax lawyers figure out how to use them. Instead of retroactively changing rules.

The problem is that this wasn't a loophole, it was Ireland and Apple making a secret tax deal, lated revealed to the public and the EU by a whistleblower, which they both knew was against EU laws. Calling it political is like calling people being sentenced for tax evasion "political".

 

[Piggie]

I'm totally guessing here, but is it something like this.

Say I run a warehouse and I charge each vendor 5% of their sales as payment to me, for letting them use my space.
All is happy, everyone using my space gives me 5%.

Then a REALLY BIG seller comes along and wants quite a large area from me, they say, they will be bringing in 50x more trade than everyone else, but only want to give me 1% of their profits.

I think about this. Hmmmm, only 1%, but seeing a how much trade they will do, I'll end up getting a lot more money, than some more small vendors with their 5%

So I agree to just take 1%, they are also happy to pay the 1%

All is fine, til others fine out I've given them a sweet deal.

Is this kinda what happened?

 

[vladi]

Ireland have never been wealthier in their history, and it's all due to these tax breaks. They were beating the crap out of other countries when it came to business-friendliness. But other broke EU countries have what always exist in the progressive mindset - envy.

Ireland should do a Irexit from the EU. Why should a country subjugate itself into the whims of unelected officials in Brussels?

Ireland is doing good cause EU pumped in billions of Euros into them. Prior to that they were on level of some Slavic states. Those unelected officials gave them those billions.

 

[entropys]

Ireland is doing good cause EU pumped in billions of Euros into them. Prior to that they were on level of some Slavic states. Those unelected officials gave them those billions.

Pretty much. Of course, those billions didn’t actually come from the EU, but Germany and the UK. Germany is OK with this as it thinks it is in charge of the whole shebang, while UK citizens have realised they just pay for it. UK Politicians are afraid their pre retirement junket is at risk.

 

[farmboy]

... Nothing Apple did was illegal, it’s a matter if it’s unethical and violated the spirit of the law. See the hearing with Dick Harvey’s testimony on it. This man has advised the IRS commissioner and wrote tax code for Raegan, Clinton, and Bush. And even he said it’s definitely not illegal just troubling when it comes to America’s tax code.

The "spirit of the law" is not an enforceable statute in any country, only the letter of the law. That's why laws need to be crafted with foresight of the consequences, not...say...tweeted.

 

[Naraxus]

Apple needs to be made to pay double the fine for their illegal activities.

 

[laz232]

If it's judged by the EU and it involves money, Apple will lose.

Apple should just pay up and tack the extra cost onto any Apple products sold in the EU.
[doublepost=1516286878][/doublepost]

Progressive want other people's taxes higher. Never their own .

Or maybe add some dollars to the US prices as well to offset the environmental damage it causes during the building of the phones in China (e.g. outsourcing pollution)? - oh - and those profits it saves by paying a pittance in taxes in Europe - those go to the bottom line in the USA as well, eventually (through M&A if not direct repatriation). In globalism it's very hard to pin the blame on one country or entity...

 

[Bonte]

With the new lower 15% US tax the EU will receive nothing in taxes anymore

 

[ani4ani]

Did you read the article? Do you pay taxes you're not required to pay?

Guess you didn’t read it either
[doublepost=1516314415][/doublepost]

With the new lower 15% US tax the EU will receive nothing in taxes anymore

Nothing new there then

 

[velocityg4]

What would be funny. When it is all said and done. Is if the Irish government turns around and spends that money on an iPhone, iPad and Macbook Pro for every Irish citizen.

 

[The Mercurian]

This issue was not about the relative tax rates. It's about the fact that Ireland was providing zero-tax incentives in violation of EU law. EU laws are intended to level the playing field between EU countries through normalization of tax laws. Ireland appears to have violated those laws, violating the agreements they signed when joining the EU.

This is wrong on many levels. First there is no harmonisation of tax in Europe. Every country can set their own rates. What the EU have decide here is that Ireland broke Irish tax laws to the benefit of Apple over other companies. That breaks EU competition laws and this is why the EU are stepping in.

 

[hans1972]

Stop crying and pay your ****ing taxes like I PROPERLY do every year.

Apple has paid all their taxes according to Irish tax authorities. It is Ireland who have been found guilty for illegal state aid if this decision is not reversed. Apple is an innocent party, a victim of big government, which is being punished because Ireland failed to honour its treaty obligations to other EU countries.

 

[santaliqueur]

Stop crying and pay your ****ing taxes like I PROPERLY do every year.

Weird, you don't take any deductions? Because this is essentially all Apple is doing at their scale. Following the laws and minimizing their tax burden.

You hate the laws, but your anger is directed at Apple. Do you have hate for all other companies that use this same tactic in proportion to how much they are saving? I bet you save all your hate for Apple. It's all you know how to do.

 

[The Mercurian]

They do? So why the fine?

There is no fine. None at all. They are simply collected unpaid taxes from a number of years. No punitive measures have been imposed.

The Irish government feigned ignorance. But it's obviously benefitting by making Ireland a very attractive destination to do business.

The best part is - unlike many tax deals, they didn't have to offer a tax rate cut in order to attract more tax revenue overall. They effectively offered a tax cut (/dodge) for overseas revenue routed through Irish companies. Or to put it another way - Ireland maintained its tax rate while offering a ~100% tax cut for revenue generated elsewhere.

I've no problem with the low corporate tax rate - it seems to work really well for the country. But the Double Irish loophole was ridiculous.

You write that like the Irish government designed the double irish loophole. They didn't. Coproate lawyers found it. The government ignored it until they were forced to close it by the EU though.

 

[phpmaven]

While I think it's wrong what Apple did here (avoiding taxes), Ireland is to blame as well as they wanted an incentive for Apple to move to Ireland.

Exqueezeme? It's wrong to avoid taxes? So, I shouldn't take any deductions on my return?

 

[nebo1ss]

Irish corporate tax rate (12.5%) is still less than the 15% the US government want...so.....



It wasn't wrong originally when they first got Ireland here. It became wrong later when tax rules changed and Apple were in opinion of the EU (I agree).



Hmm... to quote Abe Simpson......a little from column A....a little from column B. Suppose they bring in new laws to close loopholes, then companies get smarter accountants to find new ones. Then they close those. Then they find new ones. etc. At some point you have to view this as wrong on the part of the companies. They use the servies in a country - pay for it by taxation the same as anyone else would. Fundamentally it is inequitable. Small companies cna't do this stuff. Only huge international ones can.

If Apple had paid the 12.5 Corporate tax rate of island there would be no dispute. Apple paid something like 2 percent.

 

[AdonisSMU]

Stop whining and get a better ****ing accountant.

Apple DOES properly pay taxes. As little as possible, like anyone rational would, but within the constraints of the law. Do you pay as much taxes as you possibly can, or as little. Oh, OK, that's what I thought.

The socialists in the EU and the "progressives" in the states be like...

I make more money than all of you and Im progressive and liberal. Lets face it most American families have the single folks paying all their bills. Yet they complain about what everyone else is paying in taxes.

 

[BuddyTronic]

You find it insulting when a company, (an entity - not a person), has accusations levelled against it? Wow.
They made a dodgy deal. Now they are caught.

Haha, no, that's not it. The insulting part is when people assume things as you just did by saying, "They made a dodgy deal". This portrays something that is non-factual. It's OK - no biggie, the world is full of biased opinions and ignorance, and we all can say whatever we want I guess.
[doublepost=1516332270][/doublepost]

If Apple had paid the 12.5 Corporate tax rate of island there would be no dispute. Apple paid something like 2 percent.

So - ask how that can possibly happen. No explanation? No reason?
[doublepost=1516333474][/doublepost]

There is no fine. None at all. They are simply collected unpaid taxes from a number of years. No punitive measures have been imposed.



You write that like the Irish government designed the double irish loophole. They didn't. Coproate lawyers found it. The government ignored it until they were forced to close it by the EU though.

That sounds plausible. Finally some thought here.

Apple doesn't break tax laws, haha. No way. They always play by the rules - way more so than any other corporations in my opinion. They may have set up in Ireland because of some incentives or strategic advantages. Irish citizens probably got jobs! Ireland is probably very happy to have Apple there.

Lets see if Georgia or Florida or Mississippi or North Carolina people want the next Apple Campus right? Do you think 20 years from now these states will try to claw back taxes if Apple gets an incentive to locate in a particular state in 2018?

People want jobs, Apple needs to choose where to set up shop. WTF were they doing in Ireland anyways haha - ever consider that? They went there just "out of the blue?" Now some folks are gonna spew their misguided stereotypes of corporate greed and dodging taxes and talk of "just pay your taxes". Same folks didn't understand just how much good Mnuchin and Trump are doing for the US economy by cutting taxes. Things are getting better faster because of Trump Tax Cuts - so give it some thought in a few years when you are able to buy that new car or house or whatever. It really IS "trickle down" economics coming your way perhaps - if I may use the term loosely.


Also I should mention I had a few drinks celebrating AAPL all time high, so sorry for typing so much here!

 

[Ramchi]

Apple is no fool! They will probably recover this whole paying this on installments from the very EU itself. Eight quarters of $2-3 billions in additional revenue! Just increase iPhones, iPads, Mac's, Subscription services by a small margin

 

[Macs4u]

Irish corporate tax rate (12.5%) is still less than the 15% the US government want...so.....



It wasn't wrong originally when they first got Ireland here. It became wrong later when tax rules changed and Apple were in opinion of the EU (I agree).



Hmm... to quote Abe Simpson......a little from column A....a little from column B. Suppose they bring in new laws to close loopholes, then companies get smarter accountants to find new ones. Then they close those. Then they find new ones. etc. At some point you have to view this as wrong on the part of the companies. They use the servies in a country - pay for it by taxation the same as anyone else would. Fundamentally it is inequitable. Small companies cna't do this stuff. Only huge international ones can.

How hard is it??

Corporation tax is payable on ANY sales made in this country by somebody residing in this country despite if in store or online. Any company caught trying to manipulate this will face a fine equivalent to 50% of its annual turnover in that year. It’s really really simple.

 

[macs4nw]

Time for Apple to pack up their stuff and move out of Ireland, and back to the US of A! The Irish will be like, "Wait- What!? You're moving out?? Why??" ha ha ha

The Irish government is siding with Apple on this. It's the EU commission in Brussels who are demanding Ireland collect those (according to the EU) back taxes owed.