Apple To Buy TiVo?

[hanumang]

Can the cable and dish companies completely lock out Tivo boxes? By that I mean make it hard or impossible for a Tivo box to properly switch channels for recording? My understanding from a reading a couple of links here is that the whole cablecards thing is designed to prevent this sort of monopoly over your television set. I am wondering because there is all this talk about Tivo having no control.[/b]

Standalone TiVos (ie. not integrated into your DirecTV box) can control cable boxes* via either Serial Control or InfraRed. The only boxes that allow TiVo to use serial control (that I'm aware of) are some select Motorola boxes. Otherwise, TiVo uses IR blasters to simulate the cable box' remote.

Now, since most users would be very upset if their cable boxes stopped reading their remotes, you'd think that locking TiVo out (at least in that fashion) would be impossible. But who knows...

* if you don't require a cable box to receive [analog] cable, standalone TiVos have a built-in tuner to change channels.

 

[rtdunham]

...That's why TiVo (last time I capitalize that correctly) only has one HD recorder, and it only works with DirectTV. DTV is a big enough client for Tivo to work with, but imagine them trying to make a product compatible for each cable provider in each market. Oh, and it costs a thousand bucks.--DT

Not sure I understand: I paid $400 several months ago for a Humax Tivo device with a built in hard drive AND dvd player/writer, took it home and attached it to my home stereo/tv setup (Brighthouse Cable) and it's working fine, no set-top box, etc. What am i missing?

terry

 

[melgross]

terrible idea

Just because it would be "cool" or some such thing doesn't mean that it would be a good reason to make an expensive business decision.

Tivo is dying. The only question is how long it will take.

They made some bad decisions and they are now coming home to roost.

Tivo is competing with the cable companies on their home turf. They chose not to do deals that would have brought them more users and I don't see how Apple could reverse a process that is already near completion. Cable is coming out with their own DVRs, and while they don't yet have the "look ahead and record" feature yet, there is no reason that they won't later on.

Why should Apple get involved in this mess?

 

[AtHomeBoy_2000]

I was thinking about what was said in regards to the concept that is isn’t as efficient to use a Tivo if you have Dish or Comcast (or Wide Open West in my case). I think this is where Apple can really spread Tivo's wings and fly. If Apple took over Tivo, they could bring out new STBs that contain a DVR Mac OS. Nothing complicated, but something that can be altered to fit a specific Cable Company or Satellite provider. That way Apple can market it's STB to both Dish AND DirecTV. If you switch companies..... just have a tech guy come out and install the proper satellite decoding software and program guide. Given what I just told you, Tivo would work best if they marketed themselves to Satellite companies, but they could keep their cable options open..

In regards to a download store, that may be a function that Apple can hold for itself. Here is what I mean. Apple/Tivo could make ALL its DVRs capable to download movies or TV shows from it’s own iFlix. You would pay your cable/satellite content provider a set fee per month (the price can be set by each provider) to use the DVR as a STB for their company. If you want the iStore option as well, then that is an addition fee you pay DIRECTLY to Apple.

One of the reasons that DirecTV is going to their own boxes is because they would make more money selling their own product. This is where my idea could help. Satellite companies could buy Apple/Tivo DVRs directly from Apple then turnaround and sell them to their subscribers. For non-cable/non-satellite subscribers, you can buy through Apple directly.

This is all just an idea and is open to discussion. Not only do you get the Tivo name, you get Apple reliability.

 

[rtdunham]

you got it

... Apple Movie Store? Download the movie to your hard drive to watch on your computer or broadcast across your home to your TV... or pack it around on your iPod to connect somewhere else and watch the movie. And for a little extra, you can pop a DVD in and burn a copy to keep.

most succinct, most logical (and with what you had in your post preceding teh above quote, the most supported) argument i've seen. i look forward to it.
terry

 

[Lynxpro]

Standalone TiVos (ie. not integrated into your DirecTV box) can control cable boxes* via either Serial Control or InfraRed. The only boxes that allow TiVo to use serial control (that I'm aware of) are some select Motorola boxes. Otherwise, TiVo uses IR blasters to simulate the cable box' remote.

I made Comcast take back the initial digital set-top box they issued to me because not only did it lack a serial port, but it also lacked an S-Video port. You have to watch out with Comcast because they'll even deploy cable boxes that have provisions for S/PDIF output but lack the actual plugs. The black Motorola set-top box is one of the standard digital boxes that offer S-Video and a serial port. Just a note, serial is just as slow as the IR Blaster option in terms of making the TiVo change the set-top box's channels. But it looks less "ghetto"...

 

[Lynxpro]

What's a season pass? Does it record every episode of a show? Just curious. I could do that with the Time Warner DVR (I think that was $10 a month, I no longer have it.) But perhaps not all details are the same.

The TiVo Season Pass feature will record every single instance of the show you add to it no matter what channel it appears on as long as you subscribe to the particular channel it appears on. You can also program it to record only first-run episodes, or include or exclude repeats, etc. If the network changes the date/time the show is scheduled to air, the Season Pass will also alter the recording time instead of blindly recording on the channel at the previously designated time (unlike most DVRs). You can also exclude certain channels that the same program appears on too.

Wish Lists allow you to specify specific actors, directors, shows, genres, musical acts, etc. to automatically record when the Guide information finds instances of them showing up. TiVo has this; the other DVRs do not.

Now can you see why us TiVo owners are so passionate about our machines and become livid when others try to claim their "me-too" DVRs are just as good as a TiVo? Its like the Mac vs. Windows argument all over again...

 

[Lynxpro]

2. We don't have east feeds of the premium HD, only west coast (in Sacramento),

Howdy, neighbor... Comcast Sacramento has got to be one of the worst cableco franchises on the West Coast. I swear they've tried to mess with us subscribers who are using Vonage over their lines. Not a month goes by at my location without a service outtage. I'm happy I don't pay my bills with them on time...

Too bad Surewest Broadband isn't available in my neck of the Sactown woods. 100 Megabit to the home via fibre.

 

[hanumang]

1: the article says, ""the DVR market seems to be a commodity whereby all players will eventually have similar hardware and software longer term..."
Q: isn't that the case with mp3 players? apple wasn't first, but it's won--and won big--with a better product even though all mp3 players have similar hardware and software and continue to converge.
Q: how exclusive is apple's click wheel? Do we conclude it is THE best solution for a music player, and also that it cannot be copied? Is IT and it alone THE key to the iPod's success?

Sorry to go the cliche route on you, but the digital music (ie. MP3) space to the DVR space is apples to oranges.

MP3 players were created out of need, you could argue. Digital music was taking off (even if illegally) and people wanted to take those files with them. And there is (sucessful) consumer precedent for portable audio. Walkman -> Discman -> iPod.

Sure, the capacity, price and design of the iPod were untested and the subject of ridicule ('Who's gonna take their whole music collection with them?!?' 'IPOD stands for "Idiots Price Our Devices"') but little did analysts realize how much of a 'personal accessory' (to borrow the phrase from David Pogue of the NY Times) iPods would become. Yes, the click wheel is key to the iPod's success but not THE key (I'd argue). I'm sure many will disagree, but I think the iPod succeeds because of its cool factor (form factor & style).

In comparison, I've read stats that 60% of VCR owners have never used their machines to time-shift. In fact, some surveys indicate that 40%+ didn't know that the R in VCR stood for Recorder. (!!!) The vast majority of folks owns VCRs to rent movies, obviously.

Now, if you think of the DVR - however correctly or incorrectly - as a better VCR, I think you can see why DVRs will be hard-pressed to have the cultural impact of portable audio devices. While you had some advancements in VCR technology (the front loader, 4-heads, Hi-Fi, etc) they were pretty generic, IMO, because you didn't need to push unique form factors or User Interfaces. And should I even go into the whole 'flashing 12:00'? Ugh.

Now, I'm a TiVo subscriber since late 2001, I'm not out to dog DVRs. My point-of-view is that time-shifting - while loved by those who do it - hasn't been embraced masses. So, most analysts would argue that there is little incentive to push technology forward, at least in a unique way (ie. the iPod). Personally, I'd like to see them proven wrong.

 

[hanumang]

The TiVo Season Pass feature will record every single instance of the show you add to it no matter what channel it appears on as long as you subscribe to the particular channel it appears on. You can also program it to record only first-run episodes, or include or exclude repeats, etc. If the network changes the date/time the show is scheduled to air, the Season Pass will also alter the recording time instead of blindly recording on the channel at the previously designated time (unlike most DVRs). You can also exclude certain channels that the same program appears on too.

Actually, TimeWarner's DVR (the Scientific Atlanta 8000) can emulate most of TiVo's Season Pass functionality (line-by-line, in fact!). I was shocked when my friend showed me. The UI is no way near as friendly, of course.

I gotta think that this some kind of patent infraction against TiVo. Or did Scientific Atlanta license some of TiVo's patents to use in their DVR?

 

[macidiot]

Questions I don't know the answers to, but that seem pertinent:

1: the article says, ""the DVR market seems to be a commodity whereby all players will eventually have similar hardware and software longer term..."
Q: isn't that the case with mp3 players? apple wasn't first, but it's won--and won big--with a better product even though all mp3 players have similar hardware and software and continue to converge.
Q: how exclusive is apple's click wheel? Do we conclude it is THE best solution for a music player, and also that it cannot be copied? Is IT and it alone THE key to the iPod's success?

2: the article says, "Analysts said that Apple's focus on... iPod ...would probably preclude it from going after money-losing TiVo, whose growth strategy has been questioned due to the rise of cheaper DVRs being deployed by cable TV providers."
Q: hasn't there been a rise of cheaper mp3 players?
Q: what about the rest of the argument--who's the music equivalent of cable tv providers? SONY's a music company and deployed music players. Is there a scenario by which Apple could become a cable TV provider? Or would an iTunes Video Store be a functional equivalent in terms of this argument?

Looking for thoughts, answers....

peace
terry

Here's my take:

MP3 players are somewhat a commodity, it terms of basic design and hardware. However, things like supported protocols(AAC, WMA, etc.) create differences. Also, online store support further differentiates players. Add in things like interface design, software, and form factor. All together, the mp3 player is not a true commodity, where one product is largely identical to another, with no differences if one chooses one brand over another. That would be the case with windows pc's or say, RAM.

The click wheel, afaik, is patented by Apple. I don't know if its the best solution ever, but its the best out right now. I wouldn't say its the only reason the iPod is a success, but its definitely a big factor.

Cheaper mp3 players: Yes and no. Yes there are cheaper mp3 players, but with reduced capacity and features. In each price segment, the iPod is priced comparably with directly competitive models. However, overall, pricing is falling, as is typical of all electronics.

I'm not sure I understand your last question. But there is no real music equivalent for cable providers. I guess the closest would be music stores, but that really isn't the same at all. And Sony is also a movie and tv production house, but they also make dvrs. But I think your confused about the role of cable tv providers. They are, if anything, more like movie theaters, handling the distribution of content and providing access for consumers.

I can't see any reason why Apple would want to become a cable operator. Besides, cable companies are treated somewhat like a utility, awarded regions by the FCC to provide tv service to a given area. It is virtually impossible to have complete national coverage. Cable is also subject to federal regulation. I don't think Apple has any interest in the slightest to get into that. Now an Apple video store could very likely happen. But its a completely different concept. It would probably be more like a Blockbuster Video than a cable company, offering video on demand, and probably more like rental than purchase. It would compete with cable companies for your time/money, but it wouldn't really be anything like a cable company. Also, what everyone seems to confuse is that TV is not the same as film. If anything, an Apple video store would probably just be film only. Film companies would be easier to get on board. They don't care how you watch or get it, as long as they get their cut. TV on the other hand relies on advertising, typically providing content basically for free. I'm not sure if TV is anywhere close to figuring out how to replace the ad revenue.

 

[LimeiBook86]

Just some Photoshop fun...

I did this for a previous thread, but it seems relevent to this and I thought that maybe some people would like to see a possible Apple-Like-Tivo device

Front looks better than the back,

Here's to wishful thinking! *raises glass*

 

[SWC]

Discovery is all HDTV, all the time. Same with InHD 1 and 2. We don't have east feeds of the premium HD, only west coast (in Sacramento), so a total of 9 actual channels, plus the 4 premiums. With the DVR, I have plenty of material set to record all week, more than enough to fill my TV viewing time (3 or so hours a night). There are several HD channels planned for this year, and I believe that Comcast will be adding several new channels this year (at least I've heard that from their Philly HQ management).

The problem with discovery HD is that while a lot of the programming is in HD some isn't. American Chopper the newest episodes I beleive are (not 100% though) but they play a lot of previous episodes in "HD" when in fact theyre not. I have seen cameras they were using numerous times in the episodes and they are Sony PD-150 and PD-170's they are just regular DV Cam cameras yet they still advertise the episodes as being HD.

It will definitely be nice to have a few more HD channels in the lineup thats for sure to give a little more variety. The end of next year I beleive is when all stations are required to start broadcasting in HD so that will definitely give HD a big boost and really help with sales or TV's etc.

I would really like to see Comcast pick up some of the HD channels voom carries like Universal HD, TNT HD They also carry a number of their own commercial free HD channels but I am sure they wont get picked up. If you like satellite and want HD that may be the way to go, you can get all of their channels about 30 HD channels in all for about $90 per month.

 

[macidiot]

The TiVo Season Pass feature will record every single instance of the show you add to it no matter what channel it appears on as long as you subscribe to the particular channel it appears on. You can also program it to record only first-run episodes, or include or exclude repeats, etc. If the network changes the date/time the show is scheduled to air, the Season Pass will also alter the recording time instead of blindly recording on the channel at the previously designated time (unlike most DVRs). You can also exclude certain channels that the same program appears on too.

Wish Lists allow you to specify specific actors, directors, shows, genres, musical acts, etc. to automatically record when the Guide information finds instances of them showing up. TiVo has this; the other DVRs do not.

Now can you see why us TiVo owners are so passionate about our machines and become livid when others try to claim their "me-too" DVRs are just as good as a TiVo? Its like the Mac vs. Windows argument all over again...

Replay largely did all the same things as a Tivo. It might not have had the cute little mascot or booping sound, but the UI worked just as well. And better in some ways. More innovative too.

Not to knock Tivo, it works pretty well, but its not the be all and end all of dvrs. Besides, its incredibly slow. Can't say that enough times. Drop a grand on a tivo, its grids and menus should be faster than a 5 yo $50 Hughes box.

 

[AtHomeBoy_2000]

I did this for a previous thread, but it seems relevent to this and I thought that maybe some people would like to see a possible Apple-Like-Tivo device

Here's to wishful thinking! *raises glass*

Have submited this to Apple?

 

[GregA]

MP3 players were created out of need, you could argue. Digital music was taking off (even if illegally) and people wanted to take those files with them. And there is (sucessful) consumer precedent for portable audio. Walkman -> Discman -> iPod.

MP3s were made out of need, digital music was taking off illegally... sure... AND that's happening with downloading movies and downloading TV episodes now.

I've read stats that 60% of VCR owners have never used their machines to time-shift. In fact, some surveys indicate that 40%+ didn't know that the R in VCR stood for Recorder. (!!!) The vast majority of folks owns VCRs to rent movies, obviously.

Interesting stat! It does explain why I rented a VCR once and it couldn't record (which is what I needed!).

If this is a reflection of the way people use their TV, it's quite possible that more than 60% of people couldn't be bothered planning what they want to watch - they either take what's on the TV now or go to the video store. It certainly doesn't say they don't want more choices.

It still allows for an online Movie Store, or the option of going to the scifi-channel's website and watching an episode of Stargate. It also allows for a "smart" device recording stuff you've watched before - you watch Friends once, it learns and records it for you the next week. If you don't watch it after its recorded it learns that too.

Also, what everyone seems to confuse is that TV is not the same as film. If anything, an Apple video store would probably just be film only. Film companies would be easier to get on board. They don't care how you watch or get it, as long as they get their cut. TV on the other hand relies on advertising, typically providing content basically for free. I'm not sure if TV is anywhere close to figuring out how to replace the ad revenue.

I disagree. Paramount doesn't care how it makes it's money as long as it makes it. Whether that's a movie or a TV episode it doesn't matter. TV channels pay for a movie and make their money through ads - just as much as they pay for a series and make their money through ads.

I actually think episodic TV may have more options than film. If a TV producer started selling all it's shows online AND sold non-exclusive broadcast rights to TV channels, there would be some people buying shows online - it all depends on how EASY it is to buy.

 

[Tulse]

People have made some reasonable arguments about the viability of Apple putting out a PVR, and Apple getting into online video sales/rentals. But what I still don't see is why Apple would need TiVo to do any of this. It's not like the technology is all that hard -- heck, Elgato has managed to do a PVR, and that company is surely cheaper to purchase than TiVo. And that presumes that Apple needs to go outside the company to work up a box that will record TV to a hard drive and put a nice UI on it -- isn't this pretty much right in Apple's core competencies?

As for online sales, Apple didn't need to buy any hardware maker to launch the most successful digital content store on the planet, so again, I don't see what TiVo would bring to the table as far as online content commerce.

Really, all TiVo has of any value is some slight name recognition (surely well behind Apple, who was recently granted a lifetime achievement award for film product placement -- have you ever seen a TiVo in a movie?), about 3 million current subscribers, and a business strategy that is bleeding money. OK, so that last one isn't so valuable. What's there for Apple to buy?

 

[DTphonehome]

I did this for a previous thread, but it seems relevent to this and I thought that maybe some people would like to see a possible Apple-Like-Tivo device

Front looks better than the back,

Here's to wishful thinking! *raises glass*

Hey! That's a ReplayTV! Cheater!

Back would probably look better if Apple designed it, not SonicBlue, hotshot !

 

[JGowan]

Time-Shifted TV will change your Life!

I've had several ReplayTVs over the years and it is truly amazing. I'm certain that Apple would be able to make the ultimate box if they ever chose to go into this. But, it's hard to say. They say they want to be "the digital hub", well TV is a huge part of America's "hub".

I hope their box would be as easy to upgrade as my ReplayTV. I'm about to have my 160 hour box turned into a 640 hour box with two 320GB drives!!

 

[nightowl]

Howdy, neighbor... Comcast Sacramento has got to be one of the worst cableco franchises on the West Coast. I swear they've tried to mess with us subscribers who are using Vonage over their lines. Not a month goes by at my location without a service outtage. I'm happy I don't pay my bills with them on time...

Too bad Surewest Broadband isn't available in my neck of the Sactown woods. 100 Megabit to the home via fibre.

I had Surewest for a couple years at my old house, but it's not available here in Fair Oaks. The broadband was great, but you are capped at 10mbps. Still much faster, with room to go even faster, than anyone else out there. If HDTV is your interest, however, they won't even begin to offer any HD service until this year sometime, so they say.

 

[nightowl]

I did this for a previous thread, but it seems relevent to this and I thought that maybe some people would like to see a possible Apple-Like-Tivo device

Front looks better than the back,

Here's to wishful thinking! *raises glass*

Where's the CableCARD slot?

 

[hanumang]

MP3s were made out of need, digital music was taking off illegally... sure... AND that's happening with downloading movies and downloading TV episodes now.

Yeah, I understand the point you are trying to make but my major point was that portable audio has a viable history. Since the walkmen, we've taken our tunes with us.

On the flipside, watchmen - and portable video devices of that ilk - just never caught on. That's not to say that they NEVER will but we do enjoy music and movies/tv differently. Let's call it a lifestyle issue.

Now, as for online movie stores, it's not quite the same as music. Music distribution was limited to one thing that I can think of - go to the store and buy the CD (unless you wanted to record something off the radio ). Online 'sharing' changed all that. And the user experience wasn't so dimished.

Movies are a different animal. There are quite a few channels of distribution: theaters, PPV, DVD, cable, broadcast TV. And unlike music, the movie business - thanks to DVD - isn't hurt so much. Could be wrong on this, but I believe their revenues have gone up every year (that's not to say they're making huge profits) for the last 5 years because DVDs are up to 75% of their revenue stream. In contrast, downloading the hit the music biz hard.

As for TV, yeah, there could be some potential there but production and distribution issues make that tough to do legally without upsetting everyone on the gravy train.. I find it hard to believe that ABC would allow Touchstone Television to webcast current season episodes - never mind brand spanking new - of Lost when they're paying such a hefty license fee (that's the fee the broadcaster/network pays to the production company) to air the show (even if it is to a corporate sibling). In comparison, distribution in the music biz is much more vertical (ie. fewer 'people' on the gravy train).

Of course, the major issue with making films or tv downloading viable is the user experience. Be it over-compression, buggy software, obsolete hardware, annoying DRMs or an uncomfortable computer chair, it just doesn't compare to a couch and a remote. For most folks.

Still, I'm always intrigued by what the Apple braintrust is cooking up....

 

[xsnightclub]

Will all the people who have Comcast please call them and have them explain what 'amplified analog signal' is. If you work at Best Buy, or any other consumer electronics store I would assume, during training they explain that the 'Digital Cable' is nothing more than an amplified analog signal which is provided by the vast majority of cable companies. It is a form of legalised false advertising, thank your congressman. So all you people bragging about your awesome comcast deals for $5/month, I hope you enjoy your fake digital/amplified analog signal. And furthermore if you could afford a television that is actually capable of taking full advantage of the HD digital signals you would not be worried about paying for a tivo box, so go back to renting you cable box and sleeping in your mom's basement.

Tivo may go out of business, but DiectTV is here for good!

 

[BWhaler]

Well, it looks like word is out today from more reputable folks on Wall Street--if such a thing really exists--that this is totally BS.

I, for one, am not surprised one bit.

 

[macidiot]

I disagree. Paramount doesn't care how it makes it's money as long as it makes it. Whether that's a movie or a TV episode it doesn't matter. TV channels pay for a movie and make their money through ads - just as much as they pay for a series and make their money through ads.

I actually think episodic TV may have more options than film. If a TV producer started selling all it's shows online AND sold non-exclusive broadcast rights to TV channels, there would be some people buying shows online - it all depends on how EASY it is to buy.

Welll, your right, Paramount, or any other production company, doesn't care how it makes its money. They will essentially sell the rights to anyone that will pay them. But, a network which picks up a show would never allow a second simultaneous distribution. Unless I'm mistaken, the network has exclusive rights to a picked up show. They in fact pay for the creation(production) of said show. They basically own it. They'd never allow another avenue to watch it(first runs) unless they were taking a big cut themselves. Even then it would be doubtful. It would destroy their ad revenue.

Now after the show is cancelled its a different story. Apple, if it wanted to do old tv shows, could probably do it. I just think it would be a lot easier dealing with film, as there aren't things like syndication deals to deal with.

Of course, Apple could act like a network and compete directly and pick up shows itself. But thats a big cost and a big gamble.