Apple to Collect 27% Commission on Third-Party App Payment Systems in the Netherlands

[Maximara]

Yes, his exact choice of words (if he even said it exactly as reported in the interview) may have been slighty imprecise. But it's quite clear for any reasonable person what was meant: a cross-platform store that allows cross-platform buys.

Given that any reasonable person expects a digital store to have a shopping cart and Epic was still working on that two years later I think reasonable left the barn some time ago. Heck PCgamer even stated Epic's CEO plans "has something to do with the metaverse, the ill-defined concept of online worlds that we're pretty sure is a bad idea, although Sweeney himself is a dedicated (and legally acknowledged) adherent"

From the way it is worded it sounds like the paste eating tripping out on LSD nonsense of 'buy a digital item and it will work across similar games even if they are from different companies' ie a skin in Overwatch would work in Team Fortress 2 and via versa. As I said anyone who knows anything about programming knows that is total insane nonsense.

Of course with "metaverse" being such a buzzword what it means to the average person is up for grabs and when you get a handle on what it really is you find out it is for the big companies and not the consumer or the small developer and it in reality is nothing new.

"When a company says they are working on the metaverse what they hope naive people will hear is 'we are building the one and only digital future, we are the arbiters of the next step of reality' when what they actually mean is 'we are combining everything we own into a big homogenous franchise soup hoping you will swim in our soup exclusively'. (...) and what all metaverses currently are walled gardens each built by their own controlling companies blocking off everyone else and hoping everyone decides to come and join them."

This is why I say Epic's grand plan seems to go Sauron on the app digital space.

 

[djphat2000]

Why? Instead of dealing with developers directly, Apple will deal with third-party distributors. They will publish apps the same way they publish media in News+, or music in iTunes. The media will still be available, just not on Apple's terms.

Would the developer have control over where their app gets distributed? Say they only wanted it to be on Android? Or if they only wanted it on the AppStore. Does the distributer get final say, as in what works best for the distributer?
Does Apple still get to have their commission? Or are we eliminating the Apple AppStore, and going 3rd party only? Apple wouldn't go with 3rd Party only. Security alone would prevent them from agreeing with it. They don't want iOS to be like the MacOS.

Apple sells and streams a lot of music without having a direct relationship with the recording artist. Each aggregator will presumably offer different terms and developers can choose which one they want to do business with. Some may offer a complete suite of services, others may just offer the basics. Far better than the single set of terms offered by Apple.

I just go back to what I stated above. How does it land on the iPhone? What is the mechanism to acquire the app, how is it secured, approved, etc.

This will also allow Apple to ink individual deals with the major digital providers directly rather than trying to shoehorn them in with the same terms they offer indie developers. Apple sees value in having Amazon, Netflix, Disney, etc. on their platform, and those companies will likely find value in being on Apple devices. But instead of the 30% commission that they currently offer across the board, they can negotiate their own terms.

Again, does Apple "get" a commission? Do they even have a store in which to distribute the apps in question? Can they pick and choose which Apps they sell? If the answer is no to anyone of those then it's a non starter. They are not interested in handing over "their" customers to any 3rd party when it comes to any iOS device.

Apple can monetize their development tools, that isn't unusual. Developers already pay for IDEs from MS, JetBrains, and others.

How much will the market bear for this? Will it not make developing for iOS harder for those without the income (yet) to jump in? Right now, it's cheap to get started, this would make it more expensive to do so. And delay recouping costs once an App is ready to go.

Apple can also start shipping separate iOS SKUs that match different regional requirements. An EU version might come preinstalled with Spotify instead of Apple Music. Or come with no preinstalled apps at all. It depends on what European regulators decide they want to permit Apple to do.

We are back to treating the iPhone (iOS) as if it is a Mac (MacOS). I'm not in favor of this. But, gov't will ensure some of this happens. In my view, Apple should provide everything you need to get going. And anything else you want, you can get (mostly for free) from the AppStore at your leisure. I can't expect Apple to pre-install any 3rd party App and have that be "OK". Most likely it will be an optional download once you boot the device.

 

[Maximara]

We are back to treating the iPhone (iOS) as if it is a Mac (MacOS).

Which as I have pointed out before ignores the fact iOS runs on both iPhone and iPad and that messes up all the arguments especially if you add in the magic keyboard:

 

[draugminaion]

You've missed the point. Epic make a healthy yearly profit with those values, values you deride but yet Apples values are double, even triple that of Epics meaning you can clearly see the huge divide in the differences between Epics idea of making a profit and Apples idea of making a profit.

Apple does a lot more than Epic however, it provides a lot more value. Epic does not make an OS that people trust with their banking passwords and the locations of their children.
Unreal developers can really only make games and have to use the antique programming language C++ that so many love to hate.
At least with Unity you can use C#.

 

[draugminaion]

Things are heating up.
A patent troll outfit is funding a class action lawsuit to get back what customers have been overpaying Apple in the Netherlands. This is about the commission.

App Store problem in the Netherlands keeps getting worse - 9to5Mac

Another Dutch group has joined the fight against the App Store as it claims that Apple has high commissions.

9to5mac.com

 

[mrochester]

Things are heating up.
A patent troll outfit is funding a class action lawsuit to get back what customers have been overpaying Apple in the Netherlands. This is about the commission.

App Store problem in the Netherlands keeps getting worse - 9to5Mac

Another Dutch group has joined the fight against the App Store as it claims that Apple has high commissions.

9to5mac.com

I’d be interested to know what they are comparing to to come to the conclusion that Google and Apple are charging too much. It sounds like they must have a percentage commission in mind if they’ve established overpayment of €1b.

 

[draugminaion]

I’d be interested to know what they are comparing to to come to the conclusion that Google and Apple are charging too much. It sounds like they must have a percentage commission in mind if they’ve established overpayment of €1b.

I think they have no idea. They are just spitballing.

 

[mrochester]

I think they have no idea. They are just spitballing.

It definitely looks and smells like someone jumping on the bandwagon. I suspect it will be very difficult for them to prove Apple and Google overcharge as they would need to prove that alternative ways of reaching customers is cheaper.

 

[Michael Scrip]

Things are heating up. A patent troll outfit is funding a class action lawsuit to get back what customers have been overpaying Apple in the Netherlands. This is about the commission.

App Store problem in the Netherlands keeps getting worse - 9to5Mac

Another Dutch group has joined the fight against the App Store as it claims that Apple has high commissions.

9to5mac.com

"The Dutch App Stores Claim Foundation, chaired by journalist and entrepreneur Alexander Klopping, argues that both Apple and Google charge developers excessive fees. According to the foundation (via The Mac Observer), Dutch consumers have already paid more than 1 billion euros too much for apps."

Funny... every developer, including those in the Netherlands, knew about Apple's and Google's 30% cut.

Yet they still decided to build apps and sell those apps on those two platforms anyway.

Developers say the fees are "excessive" yet they had no problem with the billions they made from their apps.

?

 

[draugminaion]

It definitely looks and smells like someone jumping on the bandwagon. I suspect it will be very difficult for them to prove Apple and Google overcharge as they would need to prove that alternative ways of reaching customers is cheaper.

It might be a fishing expedition for details of Apple's internal workings that they hope will fall out of discovery.
The competition and those that are inconvenienced by Apple's business model are bound to be quite interested in those.

 

[draugminaion]

"The Dutch App Stores Claim Foundation, chaired by journalist and entrepreneur Alexander Klopping, argues that both Apple and Google charge developers excessive fees. According to the foundation (via The Mac Observer), Dutch consumers have already paid more than 1 billion euros too much for apps."

Funny... every developer, including those in the Netherlands, knew about Apple's and Google's 30% cut.

Yet they still decided to build apps and sell those apps on those two platforms anyway.

Developers say the fees are "excessive" yet they had no problem with the billions they made from their apps.

?

https://www.fortress.com/ is funding the thing.
They had some success earlier with squeezing Apple for some patent boollsheet.

 

[Michael Scrip]

https://www.fortress.com/ is funding the thing. They had some success earlier with squeezing Apple for some patent boollsheet.

Ok... but what are they gonna do in this case?

Fortress is gonna say "Apple's fees are too high" and Apple will just lower their fees?

And getting back to the earlier article... they say Dutch consumers paid one billion Euro too much.

Alright... but how much did consumers pay in total? 5 billion? 6 billion?

And developers got most of that money?

I don't think developers are gonna give that money back... or exit the App Store and find new careers.

Developers may hate the fees... but they're certainly playing ball and cashing those checks.

 

[laptech]

"The Dutch App Stores Claim Foundation, chaired by journalist and entrepreneur Alexander Klopping, argues that both Apple and Google charge developers excessive fees. According to the foundation (via The Mac Observer), Dutch consumers have already paid more than 1 billion euros too much for apps."

Funny... every developer, including those in the Netherlands, knew about Apple's and Google's 30% cut.

Yet they still decided to build apps and sell those apps on those two platforms anyway.

Developers say the fees are "excessive" yet they had no problem with the billions they made from their apps.

?

Yes every developer knew about the 30% BUT what they didn't know was just how inflated that percentage was when applied against the actual perentage needed to process apples payment processing system, which as it turns out it is 3% (thanks to the dutch ACM for bringing that out of Apple). Therefore the rest of the 27% is just out of thin air yes?and when that kind of thing happens, regulators and disgruntled developers will come a calling. As much as a buisness would like to, they cannot overinflate a price/cost of something when it's real cost is very small because that will start calls of 'Ripoff' which will get the attention of others.

 

[mrochester]

Yes every developer knew about the 30% BUT what they didn't know was just how inflated that percentage was when applied against the actual perentage needed to process apples payment processing system, which as it turns out it is 3% (thanks to the dutch ACM for bringing that out of Apple). Therefore the rest of the 27% is just out of thin air yes?and when that kind of thing happens, regulators and disgruntled developers will come a calling. As much as a buisness would like to, they cannot overinflate a price/cost of something when it's real cost is very small because that will start calls of 'Ripoff' which will get the attention of others.

But the 30% was never just payment processing. I don’t know where this idea came from. Apple have always described it as commission AFAIK.

 

[I7guy]

Yes every developer knew about the 30% BUT what they didn't know was just how inflated that percentage was when applied against the actual perentage needed to process apples payment processing system, which as it turns out it is 3% (thanks to the dutch ACM for bringing that out of Apple). Therefore the rest of the 27% is just out of thin air yes?and when that kind of thing happens, regulators and disgruntled developers will come a calling. As much as a buisness would like to, they cannot overinflate a price/cost of something when it's real cost is very small because that will start calls of 'Ripoff' which will get the attention of others.

You bring out a good point. Vote with your dollars. Dont like apples fees go somewhere else. Apple is entitled to its fees and commissions.

 

[AppliedMicro]

Things are heating up.
A patent troll outfit is funding a class action lawsuit

Don‘t see how this has got to do with patent trolling.

Apple is entitled to its fees and commissions.

About time that this triple-dipping entitlement gets taken away from them - or at least limited - by law.

 

[Maximara]

Apple does a lot more than Epic however, it provides a lot more value. Epic does not make an OS that people trust with their banking passwords and the locations of their children.
Unreal developers can really only make games and have to use the antique programming language C++ that so many love to hate.
At least with Unity you can use C#.

Heck, in terms of marketshare Unity kicks Unreal's butt all over the place. Many people use more than one engine and that is why the numbers add up to over 100%:

 

[I7guy]

Don‘t see how this has got to do with patent trolling.

About time that this triple-dipping entitlement gets taken away from them - or at least limited - by law.

No it’s not. Speak with your $$$. But to your point maybe App Store regulation will be legislated or maybe it won’t.

 

[draugminaion]

Ok... but what are they gonna do in this case?

Fortress is gonna say "Apple's fees are too high" and Apple will just lower their fees?

And getting back to the earlier article... they say Dutch consumers paid one billion Euro too much.

Alright... but how much did consumers pay in total? 5 billion? 6 billion?

And developers got most of that money?

I don't think developers are gonna give that money back... or exit the App Store and find new careers.

Developers may hate the fees... but they're certainly playing ball and cashing those checks.

Fortress is not officially connected. The class action website just mentions a mysterious "financier". Somebody did some sleuthing and came up with Fortress.
The capitalist remedy against too high fees is not mandating a lower fee but increasing competition.
So, that would mean competing app stores.
China has that and it’s a disaster for everyone except scammers and thieves.
So, before that happens they at least need to pretend to have a plan to not make that happen.
So, App Store licenses issued by governments and oversight?

This will be not be too bad for Apple because all the scammers will move to the other stores, Apple’s App Store will be even safer, and Apple gets to blame the other stores for nasty stuff on people’s phones.

 

[laptech]

But the 30% was never just payment processing. I don’t know where this idea came from. Apple have always described it as commission AFAIK.

It comes from Apples own website, someone posted a screenshot of the costs and is in one of the posts in this thread. It states that the yearly developer fee costs 99% and that 30% commission is taken for payment processing and services for IAP (in-app purchasing).

Now the question is, what is 'services'? because Apple has to my mind never made it clear what 'services' is. Is it services that are to do with payment processing? But one thing is very clear because it's on their website, 30% commission is for payment processing and services. Now, are these 'services' to do with employee wages, bandwidth costs, rental costs, programming costs to make the app developer tools and API's, costs to pay the electric bill and gas bill, costs to pay taxes, who knows until Apple comes clean as to what 'services' mean in that line 'payment processing and services'.

 

[AppliedMicro]

But to your point maybe App Store regulation will be legislated or maybe it won’t.

With all the proposals being floated and regulatory action picking up around the world, it's not a maybe.

It's just a question of when and exactly how.

that would mean competing app stores.
China has that and it’s a disaster for everyone except scammers and thieves.

Other OS allow for competing App Stores.
Including macOS.
Today.

There's marketplace-like stores that you download and install, such as Steam, the Epic Games Store or (flat rate subscription) SETAPP.

Descriptions of it being a disaster are way overblown.
It's just more sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Remember: Everyone has the choice to exclusively purchase through Apple's first-tier curated walled garden store and only install apps that have been sacred by Apple's holy app reviewers.

 

[robco74]

With all the proposals being floated and regulatory action picking up around the world, it's not a maybe.

It's just a question of when and exactly how.

Other OS allow for other App Stores.

Including macOS. Today. There's even marketplace-like stores that you download and install, such as Steam, the Epic Games Store or (flat rate subscription) SETAPP.

Descriptions of it being a disaster are overblown.
It's just FUD.

Right, Apple needs to force the issue and finally make politicians put up or shut up. Regulate app stores, or don't. Decide how to do it and do it already. Once they've decided, Apple can alter their business to accommodate. It doesn't make sense for Apple to try and contort themselves to try and hit a moving target. Decide what you want the new system to be and enact it.

Other OSes allow for a lot of things, doesn't apply to Apple.

What many consumers will miss is the simplicity and convenience of having centralized payments, being able to manage subscriptions in one place, being able to cancel subscriptions without having to jump through a bunch of hoops.

All so some devs can opt out, only to find that most consumers are actually happy with the current system, and few will take advantage of multiple payment providers when offered, as evidence by the Epic case against Apple.

Google allows for other app stores, few users download them. Epic put their games there, few users bothered. Google allows sideloading, almost nobody does it. Epic offered the APK, few users bothered after getting all the security warnings. This isn't about consumer protection at all. This is about app developers complaining about a system that many have profited from for over a decade now.

Perhaps we need an international agreement that platforms can have some degree of exclusivity for a time before they are required to open them up. That would still provide some incentive to create. It would also allow Apple to get the App Store into a place where they can put it on autopilot and move resources into other projects.

 

[draugminaion]

With all the proposals being floated and regulatory action picking up around the world, it's not a maybe.

It's just a question of when and exactly how.

Other OS allow for competing App Stores.
Including macOS.
Today.

There's marketplace-like stores that you download and install, such as Steam, the Epic Games Store or (flat rate subscription) SETAPP.

Descriptions of it being a disaster are way overblown.
It's just more sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Remember: Everyone has the choice to exclusively purchase through Apple's first-tier curated walled garden store and only install apps that have been sacred by Apple's holy app reviewers.

If other app stores exist there will be no more choice to stay safe.
The garbage company run by garbage people previously called Facebook will open a store, bamboozle your kids school, your city, and whatever else to host their apps with them, you will have no real choice to not have Facebook spy on you as much as they like.
Developers will lose too, there will be stores that host the rip-off’s of their apps, making piracy hundreds of times worse.

 

[I7guy]

With all the proposals being floated and regulatory action picking up around the world, it's not a maybe.

It's just a question of when and exactly how.

Other OS allow for competing App Stores.
Including macOS.
Today.

There's marketplace-like stores that you download and install, such as Steam, the Epic Games Store or (flat rate subscription) SETAPP.

Descriptions of it being a disaster are way overblown.
It's just more sowing fear, uncertainty and doubt.

Remember: Everyone has the choice to exclusively purchase through Apple's first-tier curated walled garden store and only install apps that have been sacred by Apple's holy app reviewers.

Maybe regulated in a way where apple gets to keep its commissions for third party IAP solutions.

 

[Sophisticatednut]

Fortress is not officially connected. The class action website just mentions a mysterious "financier". Somebody did some sleuthing and came up with Fortress.
The capitalist remedy against too high fees is not mandating a lower fee but increasing competition.

Or just competing payment options

So, that would mean competing app stores.
China has that and it’s a disaster for everyone except scammers and thieves.
So, before that happens they at least need to pretend to have a plan to not make that happen.
So, App Store licenses issued by governments and oversight?

This will be not be too bad for Apple because all the scammers will move to the other stores, Apple’s App Store will be even safer, and Apple gets to blame the other stores for nasty stuff on people’s phones.

New security requirements for online payments will come into effect in the European Economic Area in January 2021 as consequence of the second Payment Services Directive (PSD2).

In line with this directive, from January 2021, all online payments by credit card to EUIPO will have an additional layer of security involving strong customer authentication (SCA).
Customers will be asked to confirm payments by entering a secret number received by SMS or a code generated by a smartphone app or with a biometric identifier like a fingerprint or facial recognition.
These customers will be informed about the elements needed to confirm the payment by their financial institution (personal telephone number, smartphone app, etc.).

There will be little to no increase in fraud that doesn’t already exist in the AppStore
We are mixed market economy favoring regulations of the market. Not laissez faire capitalist