Apple to Launch a Global Law Enforcement Web Portal to Streamline Data Requests by End of 2018 [Updated]

[fairuz]

Hold on you honestly believe that USA, China, etc invest millions if not billions annually to purchase what exactly. It is well knowing that many agencies invest and purchase Cray supercomputers for custom usage. Do not fall into the notion that what is available to the general public/consumer is the limits. In any warfare and environment even a slight advantage over an enemy is seen as a benefit. Unless you are not familiar with the military industrial complex, etc.

To crack things that aren't secure, like outdated crypto or passwords with less entropy. 256 bit is secure. 128, idk. 64 definitely not, and lots of people's passwords are around that. One common attack is taking hashed passwords stolen from some database and using a hashing cluster to guess them, which requires massive compute power but is doable as long as they're low entropy. Broken crypto methods sometimes result in low entropy too, again doable but requiring big clusters.

 

[code-m]

What does MR even have to do with discussion? Nothing. You can opt out of Apple ads and change the advert identifier. Can you opt out if google ads? No because you are the product with Apple you are the customer.


I receive ads from google without purchasing any product.


With bing you sre the product just like google.


You are the customer with Apple and Honda and the product with google, Facebook and bing. We are not discussing cook going back in his word, if you want to believe that the universe isnt with you. We are discussing at all appearances, with Apple you are the customer and google you are the product.


Using an ad-blocker in google websites is the very definition of admitting they treat you like the product. The hyperbolic std analogy is over the top.


Amazon treats you like a customer and provides information to make an informed decision.


Not sure how you know apple’s future focus. But this still has little to do with either the thread or being a cusomter or product.


You are a product to google and a customer to Apple. I’m sure if a poll was taken there would be mixed results, but that is my opinion. Your definition of product and customer is quite different from mine. No harm, no foul there.

MR has ads, guess who their signed up with Google. Your are being tracked by cookies, etc so relevant ads are provided. Hence you are a product to MR who is using ads as a method to support its forum.

I have never received any ads from Google with or without a purchase. Something does not sound right, you may have some offending program/app or cookie on your device. I recommend you investigate that.

Yes, that is my point any search engine will provide apps to use their free service. Apple does not compete in the space yet, if their did or do you will be provided ads. How hard is this to understand.

I have accepted reality and I understand and acccept that I am a product and a customer with both Apple and Google. Why are you defending Apple is beyond me, maybe it makes you feel better that you believe Cook that Apple sees you as a customer. It does not bother me, so why are your taking it so personally.

I use an ad-blocker for ALL websites, last I checked MR is not a Google website, though their have volunteered with Google and others to serve up ads. If Apple iAds was successful I am sure MR would have iAds on here.

Amazon treats you as a product and customer, their have metrics and know what price on a product will make you hit that buy button. I apologies if you do not understand this, you may want to do some research.

Apple had mentioned at its last financial call that it is focusing on services going forward and all their moves reiterates their sentiment. A company goal is to further intrench a customer into its eco system by method to sell services and products (nothing wrong with that).

Okay I will bite, if you considered recommendations from Apple and marketing material from car manufacturers as a nice to have benefit and can opt-in/out anytime then the same can be said about AndroidOS. By default most companies you are opted-in to receive promotional materials.

Come back to me when Apple has a Search engine product available and does not show ads. At present both Microsoft Bing/Google Search and some others have ads, which are clearly labeled and can be ignored. I use neither of the two listed search engines, so I really don’t need an ad-blocker. I use the ad-blocker for websites that do have ads, and these websites are not Google websites, though their serve ads voluntary from services such as AdSense.

It has taken Apple years with their Maps project and it is still not up to par with the competition, I cannot imagine if Apple gets into the search engine market considering Siri is terrible compared to the competition.
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To crack things that aren't secure, like outdated crypto or passwords with less entropy. 256 bit is secure. 128, idk. 64 definitely not, and lots of people's passwords are around that. One common attack is taking hashed passwords stolen from some database and using a hashing cluster to guess them, which requires massive compute power but is doable as long as they're low entropy. Broken crypto methods sometimes result in low entropy too, again doable but requiring big clusters.

Are you saying your average hacker has massive computing power to break into website. The easiest form of attach is through human vulnerabilities by spoofing through emails, etc and installing Trojans or keylogger software/scripts.

Brute force takes time with the consumer available hardware that we know of today, however this is not the case for private/government firms. What we believe is secure today will be cracked eventually by the general hacker or presently by private/government agencies.

In security it is always best to one up what is presently used, so if 256 bit is being widely used, one up that. A company has to balance computing power, resources, etc. However at the same time if a company like Apple cannot handle the resources required for 512 bit encryption then what happens when 256 bit encryption cracks are made public. If you believe government agencies figured and stopped at 256 bit encryption, you my friend are sadly mistaken.

 

[fairuz]

Are you saying your average hacker has massive computing power to break into website. The easiest form of attach is through human vulnerabilities by spoofing through emails, etc and installing Trojans or keylogger software/scripts.

Yes, the average hacker has massive computing power. You can buy the stuff cheap. The NSA has even more power than them and can therefore do more. It's still a matter of how many insecure passwords you can crack. Nobody is breaking the secure ones.

 

[Lord Hamsa]

If I am not mistaken you did mention that I am viewing Apple in a negative light, which I am not. I am calling it as I see it, to take sides regarding corporations is just asinine, as their focus is monetary gain. If their provide you anything it is just to temporarily satisfy a customer in order to purchase more products and services in the future. It is a small win for the customer and a big win for the corporation. I just don’t understand how people here believe an incorporation such as Apple is the white knight, when in actuality their fall somewhere on the grey scale. Apple is not your friend or enemy, at the end of the day there are going to look out for their own best interests and if that means throwing the customer under the bus to save their hide, so be it. People tend to view Apple with rose tinted eyewear, unfortunately.

I didn't mention you at all. I was talking about people espousing knee-jerk reactions. If you choose to label yourself as such, that's really not my concern.

I take no issue with anyone who poses a reasoned criticism or compliment.

 

[I7guy]

MR has ads, guess who their signed up with Google. Your are being tracked by cookies, etc so relevant ads are provided. Hence you are a product to MR who is using ads as a method to support its forum.

Okay, but I’m not a product to Apple.

I have never received any ads from Google with or without a purchase. Something does not sound right, you may have some offending program/app or cookie on your device. I recommend you investigate that.

Nope, I don’t use an ad-blocker and google search serves up ads because to them I’m a product.

Yes, that is my point any search engine will provide apps to use their free service. Apple does not compete in the space yet, if their did or do you will be provided ads. How hard is this to understand.

You keep saying to you are a product to Apple, which I disprove and show how you are a product to google.

I have accepted reality and I understand and acccept that I am a product and a customer with both Apple and Google. Why are you defending Apple is beyond me, maybe it makes you feel better that you believe Cook that Apple sees you as a customer. It does not bother me, so why are your taking it so personally.

I have accept reality and I understand and accept I am a customer to Apple and a product to google. All of this doesn’t change that Tom Cook has stated customers are not products to Apple. Whether you believe him or not is in you, not him or Apple.

I use an ad-blocker for ALL websites, last I checked MR is not a Google website, though their have volunteered with Google and others to serve up ads. If Apple iAds was successful I am sure MR would have iAds on here.

Does MR call google apis?

Amazon treats you as a product and customer, their have metrics and know what price on a product will make you hit that buy button. I apologies if you do not understand this, you may want to do some research.

Amazon treats you as a customer with some of the best on-line shopping in the world. There is a reason jeff bezos is rich. I apologize if you don’t understand this.

Apple had mentioned at its last financial call that it is focusing on services going forward and all their moves reiterates their sentiment. A company goal is to further intrench a customer into its eco system by method to sell services and products (nothing wrong with that).

There is a vast difference in a company expanding and providing additional value to its customers through the use of new products, not to be confused with treating the customer as a product.

Okay I will bite, if you considered recommendations from Apple and marketing material from car manufacturers as a nice to have benefit and can opt-in/out anytime then the same can be said about AndroidOS. By default most companies you are opted-in to receive promotional materials.

Now we’re discussing android os?

Come back to me when Apple has a Search engine product available and does not show ads. At present both Microsoft Bing/Google Search and some others have ads, which are clearly labeled and can be ignored. I use neither of the two listed search engines, so I really don’t need an ad-blocker. I use the ad-blocker for websites that do have ads, and these websites are not Google websites, though their serve ads voluntary from services such as AdSense.

We’re discussing the various business models of companies and why with one company you are the product and the other you are the customer. What does an Apple search engine have to do with this? And you using ad-blockers gives away that you are the product.

It has taken Apple years with their Maps project and it is still not up to par with the competition, I cannot imagine if Apple gets into the search engine market considering Siri is terrible compared to the competition.

In certain aspects Apple maps is better than google maps, by my subjective opinion. I frankly don’t care about digital assistants, but I know some people use them as a talking point.

 

[code-m]

Okay, but I’m not a product to Apple.


Nope, I don’t use an ad-blocker and google search serves up ads because to them I’m a product.


You keep saying to you are a product to Apple, which I disprove and show how you are a product to google.


I have accept reality and I understand and accept I am a customer to Apple and a product to google. All of this doesn’t change that Tom Cook has stated customers are not products to Apple. Whether you believe him or not is in you, not him or Apple.


Does MR call google apis?


Amazon treats you as a customer with some of the best on-line shopping in the world. There is a reason jeff bezos is rich. I apologize if you don’t understand this.


There is a vast difference in a company expanding and providing additional value to its customers through the use of new products, not to be confused with treating the customer as a product.


Now we’re discussing android os?


We’re discussing the various business models of companies and why with one company you are the product and the other you are the customer. What does an Apple search engine have to do with this? And you using ad-blockers gives away that you are the product.


In certain aspects Apple maps is better than google maps, by my subjective opinion. I frankly don’t care about digital assistants, but I know some people use them as a talking point.

“Product as defined by Merrimack-Webster:

2 a(1): something produced; especially: commodity 1(2): something (such as a service) that is marketed or sold as a commodity
b: something resulting from or necessarily following from a set of conditions - a product of his environment”

Do you use iOS/macOS that connects to a network via the internet to be used to its full potential? If you answered, Yes then guess what you have left a digital footprint by using that app, service connecting to a network. Apple acquires stats on what function/feature you use etc. In every keynote Jobs/Cook mentions metrics of the community/revenue/etc. From there their produce products/services/etc. Other companies do this too, I am not pointing the finger. Given the above definition you have a digital footprint that you produce and companies use that, may it be Apple or anyone else. Believing otherwise is just silliness. I conceal my footprint as I use a VPN/Proxy, there are other measure you can take as well. It is available so why not use it. Ads keep the internet services I use free and I do not mind a certain amount of it. I use an ad blocker on many free websites as it limits the amount of data and cpu usage on my machine.

Maybe you should consider using an ad-blocker, I use it to visit non-google websites. Using an ad-blocker is a personal preference for me it has nothing to do with Google or anyone else.

I am a product to Apple and others, however it does not bother me. I do conceal my digital foot print and shroud my activity as much as I can. Though I have nothing to hide, I still value my privacy. Even Apple breeches this hence their have disclaimers and notifications, their are not as bad, however their still contribute to it.

A CEO of any company will say anything to reassure its customers, we have witness reality time and again when Cook was not transparent about the battery issue under iOS and throttling, Meltdown and Sepctre that took months to finally go public and the butterfly keyboard, etc. What I am saying is that don’t place too much trust in anything a CEO says, at the end of the day there are in it for profit to satisfy its shareholders if we get to a point where people don’t care about their privacy, Apple will follow. Apple Inc. is secretive and that is its business model (nothing wrong with that, however be cautious).

Why do you bring Jeff Bezos of Amazon’s wealth issue, do you have a complex? People become doctors, dentists, NGO, etc not for the money, however to help others out. This world and life is not about how many digital zeros you attain, this is not a video game (how empty is your life?). Amazon’s success is due in part as it sees its customers also as products (see definition).

You can sugar coat being a product as whatever you prefer, at the end of the day you are a product to purchase more from whatever company and entrench you into their eco-system.

Pardon, you brought up hardware and software with iOS, etc. This was making a comparison that with my Android devices I was never advertised to, so not sure what you are doing wrong. I use both iOS and AndroidOS, so I have no bias in the matter.

As mentioned you are comparing Google’s search engine to Apple hardware/software/services. When Apple does not have a search engine to compare. You cannot compare a search engine to hardware/software/services from another company. What would be appropriate would be to compare iOS to AndroidOS, and no I have not seen advertisements from either.

You and I both don’t use digital assistants, I feel it is a gimmick and still has to evolve. However that is my experience with it (maybe my accent).

Again you are entitled to believe what you prefer, however reality is that we are all products of our environment may it be the physical or digital and CEOs have lied to protect their shareholders as do politicians.

 

[I7guy]

“Product as defined by Merrimack-Webster:

2 a(1): something produced; especially: commodity 1(2): something (such as a service) that is marketed or sold as a commodity
b: something resulting from or necessarily following from a set of conditions - a product of his environment”

Do you use iOS/macOS that connects to a network via the internet to be used to its full potential? If you answered, Yes then guess what you have left a digital footprint by using that app, service connecting to a network. Apple acquires stats on what function/feature you use etc. In every keynote Jobs/Cook mentions metrics of the community/revenue/etc. From there their produce products/services/etc. Other companies do this too, I am not pointing the finger. Given the above definition you have a digital footprint that you produce and companies use that, may it be Apple or anyone else. Believing otherwise is just silliness. I conceal my footprint as I use a VPN/Proxy, there are other measure you can take as well. It is available so why not use it. Ads keep the internet services I use free and I do not mind a certain amount of it. I use an ad blocker on many free websites as it limits the amount of data and cpu usage on my machine.

Glad you brought up the definition, by the very definition you brought up, you can see google views you as a product, while apple doesn't. When you go to the apple website vs a google search notice any differences? Ads in one vs no ads in the other. Apple has no data to view you as a product, even if you log in you still don't see ads, you see product, support, technical and legal information. You actually have to buy an iphone or other device to be within apples ecosystem, while only do a google search to be in googles ecosystem. See how your very definition supports my point of view. That apple provides information on it's services, after you buy an iphone is quite different than google delivering ads to your browser based on what sites you have visited.

Maybe you should consider using an ad-blocker, I use it to visit non-google websites. Using an ad-blocker is a personal preference for me it has nothing to do with Google or anyone else.

Using an ad-blocker supports the notion that google views you as a product.

I am a product to Apple and others, however it does not bother me. I do conceal my digital foot print and shroud my activity as much as I can. Though I have nothing to hide, I still value my privacy. Even Apple breeches this hence their have disclaimers and notifications, their are not as bad, however their still contribute to it

You're not a product to apple, because you have to by an iphone (or other device) to even consider to use apple services. That you view yourself as a product, is on your way of thinking, not Apples' or Tim Cooks'.

A CEO of any company will say anything to reassure its customers, we have witness reality time and again when Cook was not transparent about the battery issue under iOS and throttling, Meltdown and Sepctre that took months to finally go public and the butterfly keyboard, etc. What I am saying is that don’t place too much trust in anything a CEO says, at the end of the day there are in it for profit to satisfy its shareholders if we get to a point where people don’t care about their privacy, Apple will follow. Apple Inc. is secretive and that is its business model (nothing wrong with that, however be cautious).

So this is where, one gets to say the CEO of the most watched company (sic) in the world is lying. Okay, if that is your belief, you are entitled to it. Power management profiles as well as the other "examples" you cited have nothing to do with the view that Apple does not view you as a product. It's just red-herring discussions muddling the real issue, that apple views it's customers, as well customers.

Why do you bring Jeff Bezos of Amazon’s wealth issue, do you have a complex? People become doctors, dentists, NGO, etc not for the money, however to help others out. This world and life is not about how many digital zeros you attain, this is not a video game (how empty is your life?). Amazon’s success is due in part as it sees its customers also as products (see definition).

You can sugar coat being a product as whatever you prefer, at the end of the day you are a product to purchase more from whatever company and entrench you into their eco-system.

There is no sugar coating, only the facts based on the definition you layed out.

Pardon, you brought up hardware and software with iOS, etc. This was making a comparison that with my Android devices I was never advertised to, so not sure what you are doing wrong. I use both iOS and AndroidOS, so I have no bias in the matter.

As mentioned you are comparing Google’s search engine to Apple hardware/software/services. When Apple does not have a search engine to compare. You cannot compare a search engine to hardware/software/services from another company. What would be appropriate would be to compare iOS to AndroidOS, and no I have not seen advertisements from either.

Googles search engine is googles cloud services, of which, google views you as a product.

You and I both don’t use digital assistants, I feel it is a gimmick and still has to evolve. However that is my experience with it (maybe my accent).

Again you are entitled to believe what you prefer, however reality is that we are all products of our environment may it be the physical or digital and CEOs have lied to protect their shareholders as do politicians.

As you are entitled to believe what you prefer. However the reality a customer is a customer of Apple, because you have to pay to be a customers, while with google you have to do a search, for free. Free gets you being a product. Apple and Honda are no different in that matter. You are customers of those companies.

 

[code-m]

Glad you brought up the definition, by the very definition you brought up, you can see google views you as a product, while apple doesn't. When you go to the apple website vs a google search notice any differences? Ads in one vs no ads in the other. Apple has no data to view you as a product, even if you log in you still don't see ads, you see product, support, technical and legal information. You actually have to buy an iphone or other device to be within apples ecosystem, while only do a google search to be in googles ecosystem. See how your very definition supports my point of view. That apple provides information on it's services, after you buy an iphone is quite different than google delivering ads to your browser based on what sites you have visited.


Using an ad-blocker supports the notion that google views you as a product.


You're not a product to apple, because you have to by an iphone (or other device) to even consider to use apple services. That you view yourself as a product, is on your way of thinking, not Apples' or Tim Cooks'.


So this is where, one gets to say the CEO of the most watched company (sic) in the world is lying. Okay, if that is your belief, you are entitled to it. Power management profiles as well as the other "examples" you cited have nothing to do with the view that Apple does not view you as a product. It's just red-herring discussions muddling the real issue, that apple views it's customers, as well customers.

Why do you bring Jeff Bezos of Amazon’s wealth issue, do you have a complex? People become doctors, dentists, NGO, etc not for the money, however to help others out. This world and life is not about how many digital zeros you attain, this is not a video game (how empty is your life?). Amazon’s success is due in part as it sees its customers also as products (see definition).


There is no sugar coating, only the facts based on the definition you layed out.


Googles search engine is googles cloud services, of which, google views you as a product.


As you are entitled to believe what you prefer. However the reality a customer is a customer of Apple, because you have to pay to be a customers, while with google you have to do a search, for free. Free gets you being a product. Apple and Honda are no different in that matter. You are customers of those companies.

Let’s compare apples to apples shall we:

Apple versus Google websites. The first thing you view when you visit Apple.com are advertisements for its products and services promoting them same as Google. I see nothing wrong with this, however make no mistake that Apple is monitoring you via cookies, etc when you browse their site (as do many other).

If you are comparing Google search engine, you have to compare it to something equal, as Apple does not have a search engine, we can compare this to others like Microsoft Bing, DuckDuckGo, etc. All the ads are clearly labeled. You are comparing Apple Store to Google Search vice Google Store, it has to be equal. Apple is a company that sells hardware, Google is a company that also sells hardware. Google has a search engine, Apple does not. Apple has a mobile OS, Google has a mobile OS. See it is easy to compare products and services in the same category, you are crossing this and I am not sure if you are doing this on purpose or you simply do not understand.

The Ad-blocker blocks ads from all advertising companies, if Apple had iAds, it would block that too. I am not sure what you are asserting. Apple was not successful in its attempt that does not mean Apple never tried to monetize on ads. Google is the best at it, however there are other companies that also serve ads that are used voluntarily by websites, this one included.

With Apple you have to buy an iPhone, granted. With Google you have to buy an Android Phone. What is your comparison. You don’t even need to open an account with either Google or Apple to use the device.

CEO’s for many companies have lied time and time again, it is nothing new as long as their don’t lie to the SEC and during financial reporting there are playing within the law. Today Cook can say we are not working on a car, in 5 years time their release a car, CEO play the game of spin. If you don’t understand then continue living in a fantasy world.

I completely agree Google and other companies such as Apple view you as a product. I have been saying that since the start. You believe otherwise. Once again check what you are comparing and the two links I have provided. A company can link its domain to whatever it wants, there is no rule set in stone. I say this as I believe you will bring up the “.com” TLD topic next.

 

[Greymacuser]

The same company that didn't want to help law enforcement access a terrorist's phone wants to have a hand in law enforcement.
Oooookay.

 

[I7guy]

Let’s compare apples to apples shall we:

Apple versus Google websites. The first thing you view when you visit Apple.com are advertisements for its products and services promoting them same as Google. I see nothing wrong with this, however make no mistake that Apple is monitoring you via cookies, etc when you browse their site (as do many other).

Cookies are an industry standard. Google not only uses cookies but tracks what you actually search for. I'm glad you find nothing wrong with a company that sells a product to have it's own products displayed on the company's own website.

If you are comparing Google search engine, you have to compare it to something equal, as Apple does not have a search engine, we can compare this to others like Microsoft Bing, DuckDuckGo, etc. All the ads are clearly labeled. You are comparing Apple Store to Google Search vice Google Store, it has to be equal. Apple is a company that sells hardware, Google is a company that also sells hardware. Google has a search engine, Apple does not. Apple has a mobile OS, Google has a mobile OS. See it is easy to compare products and services in the same category, you are crossing this and I am not sure if you are doing this on purpose or you simply do not understand.

What we are comparing is your assertion that to you apple is a product as google. That get's debunked based on the fact that to enter Apples ecosystem you actually have to purchase one of it's products vs google you don't have to purchase anything, but for free they are tracking your move.

The Ad-blocker blocks ads from all advertising companies, if Apple had iAds, it would block that too. I am not sure what you are asserting. Apple was not successful in its attempt that does not mean Apple never tried to monetize on ads. Google is the best at it, however there are other companies that also serve ads that are used voluntarily by websites, this one included.

You only need an ad-blocker if you are the product. Apple website has no advertisements. They only have product information, legal, technical, regulatory and press.

With Apple you have to buy an iPhone, granted. With Google you have to buy an Android Phone. What is your comparison. You don’t even need to open an account with either Google or Apple to use the device.

You do not have to buy a phone for google to consider you a product. I'm not going to deny that google having your data into it's ecosystem can enhance the interaction, but it's the way it uses ads that make you the product.

CEO’s for many companies have lied time and time again, it is nothing new as long as their don’t lie to the SEC and during financial reporting there are playing within the law. Today Cook can say we are not working on a car, in 5 years time their release a car, CEO play the game of spin. If you don’t understand then continue living in a fantasy world.

Straw-man argument.

I completely agree Google and other companies such as Apple view you as a product. I have been saying that since the start. You believe otherwise. Once again check what you are comparing and the two links I have provided. A company can link its domain to whatever it wants, there is no rule set in stone. I say this as I believe you will bring up the “.com” TLD topic next.

I don't agree that apple views you as a product. That is not the mission of the company according to Tim Cook. Google does view you as a product as I have been saying from the start. Once again, review your own facts and you may come to a different conclusion.

 

[MacBH928]

The price of Freedom is Vigilance. If you are too ignorant to realize that "signing up" to ANYTHING puts a chink in your personal "armor", then perhaps you should not be on the internet. You don't HAVE to, ya know. I don't have a Facebook, Twitter, SnapChat, etc. etc. account for PRECISELY that reason! My unencrypted internet-footprint consists of MR and a couple of other tech-forums on which I regularly post.

2 Problems

1-This was not the case, people used the internet for a long time and no one tracked them. No one was speaking of data breaching and privacy back in the Hotmail and IRC days. Many people still think this is the case. E-mail was ad banners-supported, never thought they went ahead and started scanning them for keywords and reading them.

2-When people signup they assume some information is collected, but seems like a lot more is collected too. For example, if you let Facebook have access to your photo library, one would think its just so you can post a picture from it. No one would guess its scanning your whole library, archiving it, analyzing it, and then sharing that data with 3rd party researchers.

Not sure if they do that, but you get what I am saying.

 

[code-m]

Cookies are an industry standard. Google not only uses cookies but tracks what you actually search for. I'm glad you find nothing wrong with a company that sells a product to have it's own products displayed on the company's own website.


What we are comparing is your assertion that to you apple is a product as google. That get's debunked based on the fact that to enter Apples ecosystem you actually have to purchase one of it's products vs google you don't have to purchase anything, but for free they are tracking your move.


You only need an ad-blocker if you are the product. Apple website has no advertisements. They only have product information, legal, technical, regulatory and press.


You do not have to buy a phone for google to consider you a product. I'm not going to deny that google having your data into it's ecosystem can enhance the interaction, but it's the way it uses ads that make you the product.


Straw-man argument.


I don't agree that apple views you as a product. That is not the mission of the company according to Tim Cook. Google does view you as a product as I have been saying from the start. Once again, review your own facts and you may come to a different conclusion.

You do realize that you have a choice of other search engines to use right, if you are using Google’s search engine then you have no one else to blame other than yourself or not taking a proactive approach and protecting yourself from things you do not want to see such as ads. You seem to have make a voluntary choice to use Google’s search engine and complain about it. Plus you seem to be deflecting when I mentioned that you are comparing a search engine site to a product website. When I brought up that Google also has a product website without ads you keep returning to the search engine where Apple does not compete in. I am aware that cookies are a standard practise in the web space, you are tracked through other means with other companies and Apple as well.

You seem to place Apple as a white knight and Google as a black knight when in reality both fall on the grey scale. If you are going to compare please compare Apple product website to Google’s product website and provide evidence that either or both are using methods to the consumer is or is not the product. Both store websites are ADVERTISING products for their respectful business. We go down a slippery slope when we claim that product suggestions are not a form of marketing where the company or its agents view a customer as a product. For example if you purchased an electronic product from lets say BestBuy, at the register their ask if you are interested in a protection plan, etc and go about their narrative. If I was interested in it, I would ask. When buy groceries the cashier does not ask would you be interested in XYZ credit card, or a pack of gum or something else. It is alright IMHO to ask a customer if there is anything else there may be interested in or require further help, customers can view the showcase/product placement shelf if interested in anything else, even this practise is very selective (I have no problem with it), however to my knowledge Apple may be receiving a commission to carry specific brands/products in its retail store and online store from 3rd parties as their receive a commission from the iTunes Music and App Store. This practise in itself is promoting music/tracks/apps/etc to its users without being transparent. If the services portfolio is due to increase in revenue, this is not by mistake. Selling hardware only generates revenue by selling services.

If I am not mistaken you can enter Apples ecosystem by purchasing through iTunes or use iCloud through a web browser.

As mentioned there are other companies that also serve ads on the web, I use an ad blocker for all companies I do not discriminate. My feelings of the web have nothing to do with any specific company or its practise. If Apple served ads tomorrow and in YOUR DEFINITION using me as a product I would not care as I use an ad-blocker and protect my online footprint. You have a choice, if you prefer not to use what is available then don’t complain of the nature of the web. I am not.

Apples website is a store and an advertisement board and by definition that makes you who are viewing it and being monitored when viewing that website a customer and product for suggestions on checkout, I am not sure what definition of advertisement you are using, however if you view Google’s store website it has the same information that you quoted that is also available on Apples website. For example when I go to buy an iPhone on Apples website, on checkout it asks that I may be interested in an Apple Watch, Apple protective case, Apple Care, etc. You are viewed as a product to sell more products and services to. I have visited websites where I put items into my online cart and the only options it provides to me is either continue shopping or checkout, no recommendations and that site to me is viewing me as a customer rather than a product to push more products onto me at checkout.

You do realize that you can delete or restrict or opt-out of Google or any other app, service provided from other companies and Apple alike. If you are not willing to spend a few minutes to do this, you have no one to blame other than yourself. You also have the choice not to use Google apps or services. I use some Google and Apple services and apps and I always receive an alert message when it asks to location data, etc. There are some services or apps that require access in-order to function properly however you can still restrict the app/service and it works in a limited fashion.

Apples business initially was driven by hardware sales, however their learnt that you only make money initially with hardware and the R&D cost is significant compared to services support. Plus we have gotten to a point where there are no big gains in hardware advancement, we have mobile hardware that are on par to some laptop and desktop machines of years prior. Once both mobile and desktop machines are parallel, you focus on software and services. Pay attention to Apples financial calls, the phone market has reached peak demand. The only way to maintain profits is to increase the price as these devices are lasting for 3-5 years before people upgrade. This is bad news when most of your business for years depended on hardware sales to promote software and services. Apple went from Mac hardware sales to keep it afloat to having the iPod give it a boost, then the iPhone that kept it afloat and the iPad to give it a boost. In the same span Mac hardware has become less relevant compared to iPhone sales. With this business model Apple needs another hardware hit or its hardware portfolio is in a bag of hurt and its shareholders will react accordingly. Hence its focus is on services to boost and eventually balance its companies interests. Certain services such as iMessage, FaceTime, etc are Apple only services as it requires the user/product to be locked in for future growth. Google services and apps work on any platform, as its focus is on services.

Apple profits on hardware and then on services while using the user as a product. Google/Microsoft profits on services and then on hardware while using the user as a product. Different paths to the same goal of profiting from the user/product. You are free to use most Google/Microsoft services for free and you can use the hardware to compliment. With Apple you can only use a limited number of its services unless you buy its hardware that compliments those services. Apple in this case is discriminating. However as a customer/product you have a choice, I view all these tech companies blur the lines and it seems you have a challenging time seeing through this as you view Apple and Cook as a white knight.

 

[I7guy]

You do realize that you have a choice of other search engines to use right, if you are using Google’s search engine then you have no one else to blame other than yourself or not taking a proactive approach and protecting yourself from things you do not want to see such as ads. You seem to have make a voluntary choice to use Google’s search engine and complain about it. Plus you seem to be deflecting when I mentioned that you are comparing a search engine site to a product website. When I brought up that Google also has a product website without ads you keep returning to the search engine where Apple does not compete in. I am aware that cookies are a standard practise in the web space, you are tracked through other means with other companies and Apple as well.

This is a deflection as this has nothing to do with your assertion that with Apple “you are the product”. It doesn’t matter whether you use google or not. If the product is free, you are the product.

You seem to place Apple as a white knight and Google as a black knight when in reality both fall on the grey scale. If you are going to compare please compare Apple product website to Google’s product website and provide evidence that either or both are using methods to the consumer is or is not the product. Both store websites are ADVERTISING products for their respectful business. We go down a slippery slope when we claim that product suggestions are not a form of marketing where the company or its agents view a customer as a product. For example if you purchased an electronic product from lets say BestBuy, at the register their ask if you are interested in a protection plan, etc and go about their narrative. If I was interested in it, I would ask. When buy groceries the cashier does not ask would you be interested in XYZ credit card, or a pack of gum or something else. It is alright IMHO to ask a customer if there is anything else there may be interested in or require further help, customers can view the showcase/product placement shelf if interested in anything else, even this practise is very selective (I have no problem with it), however to my knowledge Apple may be receiving a commission to carry specific brands/products in its retail store and online store from 3rd parties as their receive a commission from the iTunes Music and App Store. This practise in itself is promoting music/tracks/apps/etc to its users without being transparent. If the services portfolio is due to increase in revenue, this is not by mistake. Selling hardware only generates revenue by selling services.

You are dodging the point. Apple delivers some information on their ecosystem to customers of their ecosystem. This does not make you the product. Suggesting a song from iTunes es does not make you spend more money when you are an Apple Music subscriber. You are not getting random ads for birth co troll or copd, because you did a google search and google did what google does with this info. You can claim to go down the slippery slope but that’s not the case.

If I am not mistaken you can enter Apples ecosystem by purchasing through iTunes or use iCloud through a web browser.

Sure, and how many people subscribe to iTunes without an iPhone or Mac or HomePod? Even so with Apple you are not the product. If the product is free you are the product.

As mentioned there are other companies that also serve ads on the web, I use an ad blocker for all companies I do not discriminate. My feelings of the web have nothing to do with any specific company or its practise. If Apple served ads tomorrow and in YOUR DEFINITION using me as a product I would not care as I use an ad-blocker and protect my online footprint. You have a choice, if you prefer not to use what is available then don’t complain of the nature of the web. I am not.

So? This in no way furthers the assertion that with Apple you are the product.

Apples website is a store and an advertisement board and by definition that makes you who are viewing it and being monitored when viewing that website a customer and product for suggestions on checkout, I am not sure what definition of advertisement you are using, however if you view Google’s store website it has the same information that you quoted that is also available on Apples website. For example when I go to buy an iPhone on Apples website, on checkout it asks that I may be interested in an Apple Watch, Apple protective case, Apple Care, etc. You are viewed as a product to sell more products and services to. I have visited websites where I put items into my online cart and the only options it provides to me is either continue shopping or checkout, no recommendations and that site to me is viewing me as a customer rather than a product to push more products onto me at checkout.

Again, this litany does not mean with Apple you are the product. It’s not free and you have buy in. You have this narrow and incorrect view that if Apple asks if you want accessories you are the product. Maybe they ask because market research shows people buy that anyway. They are not serving up random ads for birth control or copd, for example.

You do realize that you can delete or restrict or opt-out of Google or any other app, service provided from other companies and Apple alike. If you are not willing to spend a few minutes to do this, you have no one to blame other than yourself. You also have the choice not to use Google apps or services. I use some Google and Apple services and apps and I always receive an alert message when it asks to location data, etc. There are some services or apps that require access in-order to function properly however you can still restrict the app/service and it works in a limited fashion.

What does any of this have to do with Google’s business or serving targeted ads. It can serve targeted ads for random things because you are the product. Apple serves targeted ads for accessories because you bought a product from them.

Apples business initially was driven by hardware sales, however their learnt that you only make money initially with hardware and the R&D cost is significant compared to services support. Plus we have gotten to a point where there are no big gains in hardware advancement, we have mobile hardware that are on par to some laptop and desktop machines of years prior. Once both mobile and desktop machines are parallel, you focus on software and services. Pay attention to Apples financial calls, the phone market has reached peak demand. The only way to maintain profits is to increase the price as these devices are lasting for 3-5 years before people upgrade. This is bad news when most of your business for years depended on hardware sales to promote software and services. Apple went from Mac hardware sales to keep it afloat to having the iPod give it a boost, then the iPhone that kept it afloat and the iPad to give it a boost. In the same span Mac hardware has become less relevant compared to iPhone sales. With this business model Apple needs another hardware hit or its hardware portfolio is in a bag of hurt and its shareholders will react accordingly. Hence its focus is on services to boost and eventually balance its companies interests. Certain services such as iMessage, FaceTime, etc are Apple only services as it requires the user/product to be locked in for future growth. Google services and apps work on any platform, as its focus is on services.

Straw man. Look st the financial breakdown of apple’s revenue and tell the audience what percentage of sales belong to what category.

Apple profits on hardware and then on services while using the user as a product. Google/Microsoft profits on services and then on hardware while using the user as a product. Different paths to the same goal of profiting from the user/product. You are free to use most Google/Microsoft services for free and you can use the hardware to compliment. With Apple you can only use a limited number of its services unless you buy its hardware that compliments those services. Apple in this case is discriminating. However as a customer/product you have a choice, I view all these tech companies blur the lines and it seems you have a challenging time seeing through this as you view Apple and Cook as a white knight.

The reason you can use google services for free is that you are the product. Remember if the product is free you are the product. And this thing about Apple is discriminating, its so off the wall absurd. Proof positive people say all things ridiculous on an Internet forum.

You can claim till the cows come home with Apple you are the “product”. By your own posts they do not fit the criteria.

Tim Cook is a refreshing change to the data harvesting and sales companies that are now integrated in out digital life. Your own confirmational bias not not let you see the truth about this, that is with Apple you are not the product, you are the customer. Repeating the meme “customer/product” over and over again does not make it true.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

I'm getting bored of"AFAIK" as a get out clause; but here we go, if you purchase a new iPhone and log-on to Apple's services do they not install your apps and wallpaper for you from a previous iPhone? hmmm how do they know; I thought it was all encrypted and Apple has no idea about that data?

What do you think that "...and you log-on to Apple's services..." part means?
[doublepost=1536524008][/doublepost]

2 Problems

1-This was not the case, people used the internet for a long time and no one tracked them. No one was speaking of data breaching and privacy back in the Hotmail and IRC days. Many people still think this is the case. E-mail was ad banners-supported, never thought they went ahead and started scanning them for keywords and reading them.

2-When people signup they assume some information is collected, but seems like a lot more is collected too. For example, if you let Facebook have access to your photo library, one would think its just so you can post a picture from it. No one would guess its scanning your whole library, archiving it, analyzing it, and then sharing that data with 3rd party researchers.

Not sure if they do that, but you get what I am saying.

But that was then, and this is now. It sucks that it is that way; but since it has been widely publicized, not only on the internet; but in print media, TV news, and even Congressional Hearings, that the proverbial Genie is out of the bottle and "taking notes" on us, anyone with a pulse at this point, should be at least a little mindful about giving their contact and CC info, for example, to some rando website. For example, I won't purchase anything from any site I don't do business regularly, if I can't pay with a payment-processor such as PayPal, where the rando site never gets my CC information.

Just consider all those sites as if it was some street-vendor. You wouldn't let someone like THAT walk off with your CC info (for example), would you? So why is it any different with the internet?

 

[code-m]

This is a deflection as this has nothing to do with your assertion that with Apple “you are the product”. It doesn’t matter whether you use google or not. If the product is free, you are the product.


You are dodging the point. Apple delivers some information on their ecosystem to customers of their ecosystem. This does not make you the product. Suggesting a song from iTunes es does not make you spend more money when you are an Apple Music subscriber. You are not getting random ads for birth co troll or copd, because you did a google search and google did what google does with this info. You can claim to go down the slippery slope but that’s not the case.


Sure, and how many people subscribe to iTunes without an iPhone or Mac or HomePod? Even so with Apple you are not the product. If the product is free you are the product.


So? This in no way furthers the assertion that with Apple you are the product.


Again, this litany does not mean with Apple you are the product. It’s not free and you have buy in. You have this narrow and incorrect view that if Apple asks if you want accessories you are the product. Maybe they ask because market research shows people buy that anyway. They are not serving up random ads for birth control or copd, for example.


What does any of this have to do with Google’s business or serving targeted ads. It can serve targeted ads for random things because you are the product. Apple serves targeted ads for accessories because you bought a product from them.


Straw man. Look st the financial breakdown of apple’s revenue and tell the audience what percentage of sales belong to what category.


The reason you can use google services for free is that you are the product. Remember if the product is free you are the product. And this thing about Apple is discriminating, its so off the wall absurd. Proof positive people say all things ridiculous on an Internet forum.

You can claim till the cows come home with Apple you are the “product”. By your own posts they do not fit the criteria.

Tim Cook is a refreshing change to the data harvesting and sales companies that are now integrated in out digital life. Your own confirmational bias not not let you see the truth about this, that is with Apple you are not the product, you are the customer. Repeating the meme “customer/product” over and over again does not make it true.

If you are comparing Apple hardware to Google hardware, it is not free. If you are comparing services, with Apple you have to purchase its hardware. With Google you have to purchase its hardware or a better experience same as Apple, with the added benefit that you can run its services on other manufacturers hardware. This does not make you a product as Apple allows iTunes on Windows, does that mean Apple is providing free software so you are a product. This just means that Google in this example is competing on all platforms. Microsoft does this too and Apple to a limited degree.

If you cannot see that “suggestions” are delivered by reviewing your habits and data then you are jaded that you do not see that you are indeed deemed by the company as a product. In this example Apple.

We can look at the history of iPod, when it was initially released it was Mac only with a limited base. Only when it supported Windows did the device become successful. Apple could have allowed another software to work with the iPod however it restricted it, as it wanted data metrics from all Mac and Windows users. If you cannot see this then again you are jaded. You believe during every keynote opening when stats are provided, where do you think Apple is obtaining these. From several internal sources, while a few from open sources to provide an unbiased view. This is further evidence that Apple does view you as a product. It is using these metrics to sell you more products/services. You can dress this any way you please it does not negate that you are a product to them. Their don’t have to market or sell you products unrelated to their core business for you to be viewed as a product.

With Apple or Google if you want the full experience you have to purchase the respected companies hardware, unless you are informing me that Google provides you free hardware. Tomorrow Apple can open its entire software suite to Microsoft and Google or Microsoft and Google could restrict its software and services to its own hardware. What difference does it make, we have seen Google limit Maps on iOS devices and Microsoft and Adobe as well, nothing new here.

If a vehicle is driving straight heading off a cliff, sooner or later it will drive off that cliff even though it is not there yet. Sooner or later its Services portfolio will overshadow its hardware portfolio it is inevitable.

I can use iTunes for free does that make me a product of Apple as define by you. I use free software and services from many companies, not once have I received emails for un/related products or services. Most if not all companies provide the user and disclose it ahead of time if you opt-in/out when receiving information. Apple provides this as do all other companies that I interact with. So I am not sure why you are receiving adverts. I use to receive unrelated product information via email from Apple until I unchecked this option. This was quite some time ago, with Google nothing, just have to do your due diligence for all companies and services. You are isolating a single company (Google) as the evil doer. I don’t like many companies including Google, however I am not viewing them in a negative light, their are successful just like Apple and I understand many companies view me as a customer and a product. I suspect you have an agenda as you are making excuses for unsubscribing to marketing material from many vendors or choose to use a the evil Google’s search engine because you know it is superior and Apple has nothing to offer in this space presently or prefer to ignor Ad-blockers, cookie cleaners, etc.

However continue with your naive attitude and redefine your definition of what it means to be a product when it concerns Apple. Haters gonna hate Google or anyone else as you view Apple and its actions with rose tinted eyewear.

 

[I7guy]

If you are comparing Apple hardware to Google hardware, it is not free. If you are comparing services, with Apple you have to purchase its hardware. With Google you have to purchase its hardware or a better experience same as Apple, with the added benefit that you can run its services on other manufacturers hardware. This does not make you a product as Apple allows iTunes on Windows, does that mean Apple is providing free software so you are a product. This just means that Google in this example is competing on all platforms. Microsoft does this too and Apple to a limited degree.

If you cannot see that “suggestions” are delivered by reviewing your habits and data then you are jaded that you do not see that you are indeed deemed by the company as a product. In this example Apple.

We can look at the history of iPod, when it was initially released it was Mac only with a limited base. Only when it supported Windows did the device become successful. Apple could have allowed another software to work with the iPod however it restricted it, as it wanted data metrics from all Mac and Windows users. If you cannot see this then again you are jaded. You believe during every keynote opening when stats are provided, where do you think Apple is obtaining these. From several internal sources, while a few from open sources to provide an unbiased view. This is further evidence that Apple does view you as a product. It is using these metrics to sell you more products/services. You can dress this any way you please it does not negate that you are a product to them. Their don’t have to market or sell you products unrelated to their core business for you to be viewed as a product.

With Apple or Google if you want the full experience you have to purchase the respected companies hardware, unless you are informing me that Google provides you free hardware. Tomorrow Apple can open its entire software suite to Microsoft and Google or Microsoft and Google could restrict its software and services to its own hardware. What difference does it make, we have seen Google limit Maps on iOS devices and Microsoft and Adobe as well, nothing new here.

If a vehicle is driving straight heading off a cliff, sooner or later it will drive off that cliff even though it is not there yet. Sooner or later its Services portfolio will overshadow its hardware portfolio it is inevitable.

I can use iTunes for free does that make me a product of Apple as define by you. I use free software and services from many companies, not once have I received emails for un/related products or services. Most if not all companies provide the user and disclose it ahead of time if you opt-in/out when receiving information. Apple provides this as do all other companies that I interact with. So I am not sure why you are receiving adverts. I use to receive unrelated product information via email from Apple until I unchecked this option. This was quite some time ago, with Google nothing, just have to do your due diligence for all companies and services. You are isolating a single company (Google) as the evil doer. I don’t like many companies including Google, however I am not viewing them in a negative light, their are successful just like Apple and I understand many companies view me as a customer and a product. I suspect you have an agenda as you are making excuses for unsubscribing to marketing material from many vendors or choose to use a the evil Google’s search engine because you know it is superior and Apple has nothing to offer in this space presently or prefer to ignor Ad-blockers, cookie cleaners, etc.

However continue with your naive attitude and redefine your definition of what it means to be a product when it concerns Apple. Haters gonna hate Google or anyone else as you view Apple and its actions with rose tinted eyewear.

Googles business mode is not the Pixel. I’m glad you understand that with apple the services come as a result of purchasing the hardware, while with google the services come for free. That makes you the product of google. Can’t sugar coat that no matter how much hyperbole is stuck in there. And to top it off you are mistaken itunes on windows, which exists as an extension as the ecosystem as a freebie like google search. Some misinformation is floating around.


If you can’t see that with google is the product, you need to reevaluate your criteria of what makes a person a product to a company, because your arguments are all over the place.


I’m not taking a walk through the time tunnel to review the ipod. We are discussing apple and google 2018.


I don’t know where you are getting your information, but all I do is have type: http://www.google.com and I can start using google services. I suggest you review what each company does and the services they provide and the cost to provide those services and then let’s discuss.


I don’t know who is driving off the cliff, but with google you are the product, with apple you are the customer.


We just discussed itunes. It’s use is to extend the ecosystem, of which you had to pay into previously, to windows. You believe due to apple providing access to it’s ecosystem across multiple platforms it makes you the product. Nothing could be further from the truth. It doesn’t matter whether you like apple or not. Tim Cook has said with apple you are not the product. If the product is free, you are the product.


However, unfortunately your confirmation bias doesn’t allow you to see what is really going on. As you say, haters gonna hate no matter what and those rose colored glasses are very pervasive. You might want to see this thread: https://forums.macrumors.com/thread...rpower-and-more.2135835/page-10#post-26429678 which will debunk your "claim" of who is the product and who is the customer.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

What do you think that "...and you log-on to Apple's services..." part means?

Your freaking iTunes account; jesus

 

[Tech198]

Apple can't cope, so they gotta have a web portal...

yay.

I'm getting bored of"AFAIK" as a get out clause; but here we go, if you purchase a new iPhone and log-on to Apple's services do they not install your apps and wallpaper for you from a previous iPhone? hmmm how do they know; I thought it was all encrypted and Apple has no idea about that data?

Its "Optional"... besides we favor convenience these days.

well, most of us.