Apple to Launch a Global Law Enforcement Web Portal to Streamline Data Requests by End of 2018 [Updated]

[Scooz]

Yep. So get busy building that Smartphone from parts you buy from DigiKey and Mouser...

And then, have fun writing the OS from scratch, too...

Well there are proven OS for that already. Though you might end up with using a fat and ugly self-constructed connected organizer and a dumb „pure“ phone instead.

Guess the app availability (and therfor services availability) will be more of a problem.

But other than that, it might actually be a viable solution to the upcoming changes in politics.

You might want to try implementing your own crypto apps on top of iOS first, though, since Apple only will be able to give out what they can access so that this might be safe enough. Still, self-made.

 

[brinary001]

Interesting coming from a company that is actively advocating they are NOT collecting private data about us through their services.

I don't get where the disconnect is happening for you here...

...

we've always maintained that if we have information we will make it available when presented with valid legal process​

Apple has said time and time again that much of their services is encrypted: iMessage, iCloud, and the like, so even when presented with requests for this kind of information they can't deliver, to the disappointment of law enforcement. They purposely lock up their own servers and throw away the key so that NO ONE can get in - not even them.​

 

[WatchFromAfar]

.Opps
[doublepost=1536301700][/doublepost]Apple will give out, when requested by a judge, all information about you that they have. It doesn't matter that’s encrypted and they can’t read it, it’s still a binary blob of information that is linked to you now and forever more.

Can Apple read it? not if you believe them. Can other agencies read it? who knows. But will Apple give your data up, even though encrypted, YES!

 

[laz232]

I personally think its a great move, its just putting a process in place to make it a little easier, so many people concerned about privacy, I get it, trust me. However, if you are doing nothing wrong who cares. I really dont think law enforcement is going to access your credit card to make purchases or look at your girlfriend or boyfriend's naked pictures. All these people complaining about privacy need to take a step back and look at the big picture. If anything would ever happen to a loved one, another terrorist attack etc. I would hope Apple would give up information to law enforcement from that persons phone to help them. Get over it people, if the police were to take my phone and I did nothing wrong have at it, you arent going to find anything. They can care less about your perosnal banking information etc. Its aonly a cell phone people..

To refute almost each of your points:

"I really dont think law enforcement is going to access [..] or look at your girlfriend or boyfriend's naked pictures."

Government and law enforcement have abused their powers before e.g.:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...uses-ex-lovers-watchdog-idUSBRE98Q14G20130927

"Get over it people, if the police were to take my phone and I did nothing wrong have at it, you arent going to find anything."

There are plenty of things that are legal but should remain private. Consider a judge that is into BDSM or pee-sex. Those are legal, but this information can be used by governments to coerce or "encourage" say a harsh sentence against a government whistle blower.

"Its aonly a cell phone people.."

No, for many people it's a detailed diary of their every movement and many of their thoughts and actions.
[doublepost=1536306527][/doublepost]

hopefully it's the most minimal thing they could do to comply with any laws. Apple shouldn't send any more information than it legally needs to.

From a leaked Apple email in 2015:
"Thousands of times every month, we give governments information about Apple customers and devices, in response to warrants and other forms of legal process. We have a team that responds to those requests 24 hours a day. Strong encryption does not eliminate Apple's ability to give law enforcement meta-data or any of a number of other very useful categories of data"

 

[brinary001]

.Opps
[doublepost=1536301700][/doublepost]
Apple will give out, when requested by a judge, all information about you that they have. It doesn't matter that’s encrypted and they can’t read it, it’s still a binary blob of information that is linked to you now and forever more.

Can Apple read it? not if you believe them. Can other agencies read it? who knows. But will Apple give your data up, even though encrypted, YES!

Ha! If you can decrypt that giant “binary blob of information” you speak of that’s protected with some of the most intricate HASH algorithms on the planet, then hell you can have my information. It’s my gift to you for being clearly the best hacker that has ever, and will ever live.

Just because you might know where Fort Knox is doesn’t mean you can just walk inside...

 

[WatchFromAfar]

Ha! If you can decrypt that giant “binary blob of information” you speak of that’s protected with some of the most intricate HASH algorithms on the planet, then hell you can have my information. It’s my gift to you for being clearly the best hacker that has ever, and will ever live.

Just because you might know where Fort Knox is doesn’t mean you can just walk inside...

Then, if it's inconceivable to you now because today it's unprofitable, Apple has given up information that is linked to you right now and will track you like a dog for the rest of your life.

 

[I7guy]

Not true regarding the Apple Music comparison to Car manufacturers sending you service promotions, a better comparison would be iOS or MacOS sending you a notification that an update is available. Where one already purchased the hardware with the OS and is getting a notification for an update. With my vehicle I do not get any promotion material to purchase accessories, I do however receive recall notices that is mandated by law. The other marketing material you can opt out of it when you purchase a new vehicle, if you purchased a used vehicles you receive nothing other than recall notices. Not quite the same thing. Had XM or Sirius sat radio was recommending me other channels and actively monitoring my listening habits that may come close to the Apple Music comparison, however it is not intrusive as such.

You purchase hardware to run iOS or AndroidOS this is the same for any manufacturer may it be a phone or a computer. I can use gmail without having to purchase an AndroidOS device, I can even signup for it on an iOS device plus I do not receive ads (have you heard of ad blockers, problem solved). I don’t use Google Voice or Siri, though the competition is better at it (privacy concerns aside), plus when I did try out both services I never received any ads, I am sure both services are harvesting some data from its users (lets not be naive). I do not use Googles search engine and if Apple had one I would not use it either (personal choice) and the ads on Google search are clearly labeled, their are not hiding it from their users. Maps also no ads.

You are entitled to your preference for map app choice, however the world over will concur that Google maps is far superior, what if the data driving Apple maps was from Google vice TomTom, would you still feel the same about Google (curious).

Please do not misunderstand that I am taking side, I am neutral in this. My point is that all corporations are harvesting data from users as their see them as products, whether you are aware of it or not and if you are, your choices are limited. You are under the illusion that Apple is a white knight, when in actuality it is a grey knight similar to other tech companies, some are just a darker shade of grey like FaceBook...

Sure it's true regarding the car companies, it's a perfect analogy, because the car companies are doing exactly what you (incorrectly) claim apple is doing. The car companies send all sorts of promotional stuff through postcards and emails; of course you can opt-out.

You are confusing the machine learning and predictive algorithms built into to many websites to provide a better experience with "being a product". THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with Apple wanting to sell you more icloud storage after you purchased an iphone. Now what would be wrong is if apple gave your information to Dropbox, who then contacted you, then you would be the product. See the difference?

I'm not misunderstanding you, I'm as neutral as you are. We view things differently and that's okay. What we view vastly differently is what is means to be a product. I hope my view is clear.
[doublepost=1536320603][/doublepost]

I use Apple Maps for nav, but the PoI search is definitely worse everywhere I've tried it. It's missing everything that's not a major business or something.

I started using Apple Maps when I was in Portland about 4 years, it worked very well up there and it got better. Apple is now on a major push and I suspect they want to push google maps out of the running.

 

[curtvaughan]

Well... how about they encrypt everything by default so when the gov. asks they give them encrypted data?

Given that Apple requires you an iCloud account to use their products, and so does Windows and Google for Android... you can't use anything anymore without you logging in so they can track your every move. How do we know Apple is not recording every keystroke, breathe, and video that goes via camera and storing it on their servers?

Paranoid? Yes, but how do you know its not happening? Seems Linux is the only option left that you can use truly without the fear of someone breathing behind your neck.
[doublepost=1536244342][/doublepost]

Yes, I am starting to feel Apple is turning into just another Facebook/Google company now.

Don't get too comfy about your privacy, even with Linux. Linux has the advantage of being non-proprietary and open source for verification, but network encryption (or lack thereof), location trails, and use of cloud services still remain privacy issues with which to be concerned. Linus Torvalds has already been approached by government entities for kernel alterations, though so far he hasn't complied. Like other systems, Linux leaves footprints throughout the network leaving clues as to its identity - just go to http://www.whatsmyip.org/more-info-about-you/ to see some sample data for your client OS, server OS, and location. You can obscure your location by using a VPN, but then the VPN itself can be identified as a tracking source, and you must rely on the VPN to not furnish government data requests. In an odd way, being identified as a user of Linux as a desktop/laptop helps narrow the scope of identification for the snoops, as only some 3% of laptop/desktop users use Linux. At least with Windows or MacOS its easier to get lost among the herd.

As for Apple, I'd be curious as to what motivated them to comply in this case. Was it a carrot or a whip that prompted their move?
[doublepost=1536327011][/doublepost]

Agreed. A private company MUST comply with government laws or executives go to jail, why is that not obvious to people? Of course since this is a private company, the comments are all about how horrible Apple is, selling us out, etc. How about getting upset at the root of the problem, the State.

How often do company executives go to jail, especially with multi-nationals? Additionally, multi-national conglomerates like Apple are able to dodge government regulations and laws by relocating various services and manufacturing functions globally. This circumvents labor and tax regulations imposed by various national governments. The same should be applicable to security and privacy issues imposed by national governments. My guess is that Apple is vulnerable to U.S. law - possibly reinforced by treaties with allies - in regard to security/privacy issues.

 

[MacBH928]

Don't get too comfy about your privacy, even with Linux. Linux has the advantage of being non-proprietary and open source for verification, but network encryption (or lack thereof), location trails, and use of cloud services still remain privacy issues with which to be concerned. Linus Torvalds has already been approached by government entities for kernel alterations, though so far he hasn't complied. Like other systems, Linux leaves footprints throughout the network leaving clues as to its identity - just go to http://www.whatsmyip.org/more-info-about-you/ to see some sample data for your client OS, server OS, and location. You can obscure your location by using a VPN, but then the VPN itself can be identified as a tracking source, and you must rely on the VPN to not furnish government data requests. In an odd way, being identified as a user of Linux as a desktop/laptop helps narrow the scope of identification for the snoops, as only some 3% of laptop/desktop users use Linux. At least with Windows or MacOS its easier to get lost among the herd.

As for Apple, I'd be curious as to what motivated them to comply in this case. Was it a carrot or a whip that prompted their move?
s.

I am not looking to leave 0 foot print, What worries me is that there as an account with everything recorded about my life. If they can track me down and find out that I once went to Disney.com to purchase a ticket, fine. But I don't want them to request my file from Apple and they have full search, email, location, call, images, videos, apps, movies,music, contacts, notes, credit card, passwords, calendar, reminder, messages, SMS and browsing history of the past 10 years.

 

[Rocketman]

The five eyes countries are actively asking for back doors to all comms apps. China and Russia have localised servers and zero privacy rights.

 

[MacBH928]

That is incorrect.

I have an Apple ID for my iOS Devices; but I do NOT use iCloud for ANYTHING.

Yes, this means I have to dismiss about 3 Alerts everytime I boot up my MacBook Pro, and I don't have synced bookmarks and whatnot; but that's worth it to me.

Apple ID, iCloud account...whatever you want to call it. Just because they say we are not collecting data that does not mean they are not...as I said earlier Facebook and Google has been caught breaching privacy policy and they get away away with it or pay a tiny fine.
[doublepost=1536328320][/doublepost]

Microsoft does not require an account to use the Windows Operating System.

Nevertheless, I agree with your overall point. Many services, even outside of the technology industry require some identifying information to consume a service.

My problem is that up until recently we have used all sorts of devices without login requires, and they run perfect. There is NO need to login. Like I understand the app store purchases, but some apps are App Store only you don't have the option. In fact, on iOS its the only option if you want to install an app.

They don't exactly "require" it but in reality they push you into it as much as they can to make it seem that YOU made the choice.

 

[Lord Hamsa]

Apple is a corporation there is no emotion of like/dislike, love/hate concerning money. Apple is a corporation and corporations like money and more is always welcomed. You seem to believe that Apple personally cares about you, guess what after you purchased that Apple product this corporation has your money, the only thing keeping it in-check is customer trust and loyalty to purchase future products and services. Corporations will do anything to protect themselves, their are not martyrs. I am neither a lover/hater of any corporation, I just understand the dynamics of reality.

You seem to come across as having a personal relationship with Apple or its products, quite telling.

Pretty long stretch to claim that my comment that people with knee-jerk reactions are acting emotionally means that I am acting emotionally, isn't it?

 

[fairuz]

You are under the assumption that some agencies do not already have the hardware to crack present day encryption. USA has at least 6 machines that I am aware of and China has 4. There may be more, its hard to say my knowledge of those numbers were from a year or so ago. It is expensive equipment, however in cyberspace having even a slight advantage is priceless. You are aware of what is available in the public space, there are private and government space projects that you are not aware of.

When the USAF publicly released news of their stealth bomber, do you honestly believe that it was not developed and used years prior to the press release. By the time that was made public the next project, lets say version 2 was already being used and 3 was in development stages. That is the equivalent of showing your hands before placing a wager in poker.

I don't even bother checking what they've publicly announced. It doesn't matter what they have, and there's no such thing as a slight advantage in computer hardware, only exponential advantages. Security is about preventing even theoretical attacks. Doesn't matter how big their computer is because at some point the speed of light becomes the limiting factor.

If the NSA has any secret weapon up their sleeves, it's some mathematical knowledge that renders certain encryption or hashing algorithms broken. Not some computer magically capable of brute forcing 2^256 entropy encryption.
[doublepost=1536332500][/doublepost]

The five eyes countries are actively asking for back doors to all comms apps. China and Russia have localised servers and zero privacy rights.

Yeah, in general I'd never assume my data will be kept private if a company has access to it. That's why I focus more on what the country would go after someone for. The USA's right to free speech matters more than ever nowadays.

 

[Scooz]

.Opps
[doublepost=1536301700][/doublepost]
Apple will give out, when requested by a judge, all information about you that they have. It doesn't matter that’s encrypted and they can’t read it, it’s still a binary blob of information that is linked to you now and forever more.

Can Apple read it? not if you believe them. Can other agencies read it? who knows. But will Apple give your data up, even though encrypted, YES!

Just that this isn‘t the problem, since the Agencies can already grab encrypted streams that stem from your device. And should there be the super solution to current encryption one day, these would be accessible anyway. So far they are not, if the used encryption mechanism is not pre-compromised.

The things the Agencies involved here are interested in are unecrypted data, metadata, things like phone, chat, mail or note databases, that Apple (in contrast to how oneself would do) does not encrypt or clean up (eg by explicitely purging deleted messages from the used datastores like SQLite).

The combination of those two factors is what makes the data accessible.

And while Apple might not store your chat messages enencrypted, they might hold the right combination of keys, just for your own convenience, in some other vault. Also mail and meta data, including phone history and location seems to get stored unencrypted besides your backup. The interest of the agency clients for that data is not in encrypted blobs but in data Apple could directly provide. This also lead to the newest idea of a company-owned backdor mechanism that they would have to share when needed (instead of opening up or lessen the encryption/data via some standard entry point which would ease access also for non-gov hackers without permit).

Not that anybody might be interested in your data or mine, but we would take much more care technically when implementing local app privacy while we might have trusted Apple and the secure connection to their data vaults in combination with the Phone’s local lock so far.

Therfor any „automated service“ for governments and law enforcement should make you think. Even if it‘s just a the authentication portion at this time. Authentication and authorization of agency users just sounds like a useful first step towards a more useful portal.

So yes, self-made software gives you more control over the process and possible levels of security here, as there are many Apple apps using non-encrypted data stores or unsafe key storage that we ignored due to trust in the complicated non-automated way they would have to be queried and specified. Any portal approach should ring some bell.

 

[code-m]

You are confusing the machine learning and predictive algorithms built into to many websites to provide a better experience with "being a product". THERE IS NOTHING WRONG with Apple wanting to sell you more icloud storage after you purchased an iphone. Now what would be wrong is if apple gave your information to Dropbox, who then contacted you, then you would be the product. See the difference?

Fair enough, I respect differing opinions on the matter, however I have never received advertisements from Google for things that I may or may not need. Data being sold to third parties to monetization is nothing new, if Google does it internally or sells some to other vendors it has to be transparent about it. Apple does the same internally, I cannot confirm if their sell or share to third party vendors or to what extent, its best to wait for clarification as Apple tends to be quite secretive on certain topics unfortunately.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

Just that this isn‘t the problem, since the Agencies can already grab encrypted streams that stem from your device. And should there be the super solution to current encryption one day, these would be accessible anyway. So far they are not, if the used encryption mechanism is not pre-compromised.

The things the Agencies involved here are interested in are unecrypted data, metadata, things like phone, chat, mail or note databases, that Apple (in contrast to how oneself would do) does not encrypt or clean up (eg by explicitely purging deleted messages from the used datastores like SQLite).

The combination of those two factors is what makes the data accessible.

And while Apple might not store your chat messages enencrypted, they might hold the right combination of keys, just for your own convenience, in some other vault. Also mail and meta data, including phone history and location seems to get stored unencrypted besides your backup. The interest of the agency clients for that data is not in encrypted blobs but in data Apple could directly provide. This also lead to the newest idea of a company-owned backdor mechanism that they would have to share when needed (instead of opening up or lessen the encryption/data via some standard entry point which would ease access also for non-gov hackers without permit).

Not that anybody might be interested in your data or mine, but we would take much more care technically when implementing local app privacy while we might have trusted Apple and the secure connection to their data vaults in combination with the Phone’s local lock so far.

Therfor any „automated service“ for governments and law enforcement should make you think. Even if it‘s just a the authentication portion at this time. Authentication and authorization of agency users just sounds like a useful first step towards a more useful portal.

So yes, self-made software gives you more control over the process and possible levels of security here, as there are many Apple apps using non-encrypted data stores or unsafe key storage that we ignored due to trust in the complicated non-automated way they would have to be queried and specified. Any portal approach should ring some bell.

I know that "Apple lovers" think just because data can't be read today then it's gone, never to be used again. Not the case Apple will hold on to unreadable encrypted data and you bet law agencies will hold that data that linked to you until a a time comes when they can de-crypt it.

 

[code-m]

Pretty long stretch to claim that my comment that people with knee-jerk reactions are acting emotionally means that I am acting emotionally, isn't it?

If I am not mistaken you did mention that I am viewing Apple in a negative light, which I am not. I am calling it as I see it, to take sides regarding corporations is just asinine, as their focus is monetary gain. If their provide you anything it is just to temporarily satisfy a customer in order to purchase more products and services in the future. It is a small win for the customer and a big win for the corporation. I just don’t understand how people here believe an incorporation such as Apple is the white knight, when in actuality their fall somewhere on the grey scale. Apple is not your friend or enemy, at the end of the day there are going to look out for their own best interests and if that means throwing the customer under the bus to save their hide, so be it. People tend to view Apple with rose tinted eyewear, unfortunately.
[doublepost=1536335526][/doublepost]

I don't even bother checking what they've publicly announced. It doesn't matter what they have, and there's no such thing as a slight advantage in computer hardware, only exponential advantages. Security is about preventing even theoretical attacks. Doesn't matter how big their computer is because at some point the speed of light becomes the limiting factor.

If the NSA has any secret weapon up their sleeves, it's some mathematical knowledge that renders certain encryption or hashing algorithms broken. Not some computer magically capable of brute forcing 2^256 entropy encryption.

Hold on you honestly believe that USA, China, etc invest millions if not billions annually to purchase what exactly. It is well knowing that many agencies invest and purchase Cray supercomputers for custom usage. Do not fall into the notion that what is available to the general public/consumer is the limits. In any warfare and environment even a slight advantage over an enemy is seen as a benefit. Unless you are not familiar with the military industrial complex, etc.

it is also well knowing that most VPN encryption standards with the exception of Open have been compromised. The question is not if encryption can be broken in near real time, any encryption can be broken given time and supercomputing power and for certain agencies or governments this is their bread and butter.

The bigger issue here is that government sees citizens and foreign entitles as threats, while their use your tax dollars to fund these project to impose on your constitutional rights for the proclamation of safety and security. Reality is that no one can gurantee anyone anything. What certain governments and agencies are doing is to instil a permanence of fear on its citizens psyche to accept it as reality, and claiming you cannot have one without the other. I believe this is deceitful.

 

[I7guy]

Fair enough, I respect differing opinions on the matter, however I have never received advertisements from Google for things that I may or may not need. Data being sold to third parties to monetization is nothing new, if Google does it internally or sells some to other vendors it has to be transparent about it. Apple does the same internally, I cannot confirm if their sell or share to third party vendors or to what extent, its best to wait for clarification as Apple tends to be quite secretive on certain topics unfortunately.

Fair enough. When I do a google search I see adverts appearing on my screen. When I go to the Apple website, no adverts except product information. After I buy an iPhone and go to the Apple website, I still don’t see any adverts. I have no issue with recommendation of products or services that would make my life easier. After I buy a Honda, I don’t mind them sending me emails or postcards asking if I want a service discount or other accessory. I don’t see these, unlike google, until after I purchased a service or product.

That is the difference. Apple is not selling my data to third parties. Like Honda apple recommends products or services you may be interested in. But this, unlike google, doesn’t happen until you purchase product.

We seem to have differing views on the internal use of customer data after product was purchased, fair enough. To me it’s okay.

 

[code-m]

Fair enough. When I do a google search I see adverts appearing on my screen. When I go to the Apple website, no adverts except product information. After I buy an iPhone and go to the Apple website, I still don’t see any adverts. I have no issue with recommendation of products or services that would make my life easier. After I buy a Honda, I don’t mind them sending me emails or postcards asking if I want a service discount or other accessory. I don’t see these, I like google, until after I purchased a service or product.

That is the difference. Apple is not selling my data to third parties. Like Honda apple recommends products or services you may be interested in. But this, unlike google, doesn’t happen until you purchase product.

We seem to have differing views on the internal use customer data after product was purchased, fair enough. To me it’s okay.

You are comparing a search engine with a company website. If you were to compare Google search with Apple search that would be more appropriate. You do realize that you can block those advertisements or use another search engine, Google is not the only option. Yes, you have a choice my friend.

I have purchased iOS and Android devices, and I can honestly say I have had no advertisements from either company. Recommending future products or services is part of harvesting data from prior usage where you are the product. If none of these companies recommend anything it would inform me that in this certain regard you are not being treated as a product.

If I purchase a car and the manufacturer sends me promotions for service and sales without my consent I would question my future business dealings with this company. All manufacturers provide you the option to opt-in or out upfront. As mentioned I do not receive any marketing material for service or sales, recalls are mandated by law. When you receive a service promotion from your manufacturer to get an oil change done at XYZ dealership you are the product as your information is being provided to a specific dealership to get a specific service done.

All companies share user data, internally, externally or both. Monetizing on it either internally, external or both depends on the company you are doing business with to what extend of transparency and options is provided to the user.

I am not sure if use ad blockers, or opt out of marketing material, etc. By your comments it seems you may not be. I have received emails from Apple for product announcements, etc. You have to uncheck this option, however by default it is checked on. Please do not misunderstand that I am isolating Apple on this, what I am saying is that all corporations are more than happy to sell you things you may or may not need without being unbiased (nature of the beast). As a customer you have to take that extra step and opt-out, it is as simple as that or use ad blockers.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Are we to believe that LEO and NSA do not cooperate on certain fronts.

I think it depends very much on a case-by-case basis.

If you rob a bank, the NSA is unlikely to get involved.

If you blow up a building, drive a truck into a crowd, or shootup a crowd of concert-goers, the NSA might be convinced to help...
[doublepost=1536338042][/doublepost]

Just humour me;

If "APPLE doesn't, AFAICT, have any ICLOUD data "on me" to "hand over""

then how can Apple perform a backup completely and uterly that's your own? that they know is yours?

I'm sorry; but I don't understand the question.

Apple doesn't back-up any of my data (AFAIK). I use a third-party cloud-backup that provides end-end encryption.
[doublepost=1536338134][/doublepost]

Well there are proven OS for that already. Though you might end up with using a fat and ugly self-constructed connected organizer and a dumb „pure“ phone instead.

Guess the app availability (and therfor services availability) will be more of a problem.

But other than that, it might actually be a viable solution to the upcoming changes in politics.

You might want to try implementing your own crypto apps on top of iOS first, though, since Apple only will be able to give out what they can access so that this might be safe enough. Still, self-made.

Or just do what I do, and ELECT to NOT use any iCloud services. You don't HAVE to, ya know...

 

[I7guy]

You are comparing a search engine with a company website. If you were to compare Google search with Apple search that would be more appropriate. You do realize that you can block those advertisements or use another search engine, Google is not the only option. Yes, you have a choice my friend.

Apple search? No adverts. Blocking adverts is not the discussion being a product is the discussion and you’ve essentially just proved the point.

I have purchased iOS and Android devices, and I can honestly say I have had no advertisements from either company. Recommending future products or services is part of harvesting data from prior usage where you are the product. If none of these companies recommend anything it would inform me that in this certain regard you are not being treated as a product.

No. With a car comlany or Apple you buy in to the ecosystem by purchasing hardware. Recommendation of services is a normal business practice. Opposed to google where the first thing you see are adverts. Why? You are the product.

If I purchase a car and the manufacturer sends me promotions for service and sales without my consent I would question my future business dealings with this company. All manufacturers provide you the option to opt-in or out upfront. As mentioned I do not receive any marketing material for service or sales, recalls are mandated by law. When you receive a service promotion from your manufacturer to get an oil change done at XYZ dealership you are the product as your information is being provided to a specific dealership to get a specific service done.

I said previously getting emails and postcards are optin. Differentiated from google where your opt in is an ad blocker.

All companies share user data, internally, externally or both. Monetizing on it either internally, external or both depends on the company you are doing business with to what extend of transparency and options is provided to the user.

All companies share data is an unproven statement. A better statement is with Apple you are customer and google you are the product.

I am not sure if use ad blockers, or opt out of marketing material, etc. By your comments it seems you may not be. I have received emails from Apple for product announcements, etc. You have to uncheck this option, however by default it is checked on. Please do not misunderstand that I am isolating Apple on this, what I am saying is that all corporations are more than happy to sell you things you may or may not need without being unbiased (nature of the beast). As a customer you have to take that extra step and opt-out, it is as simple as that or use ad blockers.

Using ad-blockers with google is an admission you are the product with them. Apple gives you a way to opt out of everything, google gives you a way of opting out of nothing. That says it all.

I’m not picking on google or facebook, it’s inherent in their business model. They don’t make money from hardware, they make money from your data.

Tim Cook says “you” are not the product. I’m not being pedantic, but those words ring truer than internet posters who claim otherwise.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

Apple ID, iCloud account...whatever you want to call it. Just because they say we are not collecting data that does not mean they are not...as I said earlier Facebook and Google has been caught breaching privacy policy and they get away away with it or pay a tiny fine.
[doublepost=1536328320][/doublepost]

My problem is that up until recently we have used all sorts of devices without login requires, and they run perfect. There is NO need to login. Like I understand the app store purchases, but some apps are App Store only you don't have the option. In fact, on iOS its the only option if you want to install an app.

They don't exactly "require" it but in reality they push you into it as much as they can to make it seem that YOU made the choice.

The price of Freedom is Vigilance. If you are too ignorant to realize that "signing up" to ANYTHING puts a chink in your personal "armor", then perhaps you should not be on the internet. You don't HAVE to, ya know. I don't have a Facebook, Twitter, SnapChat, etc. etc. account for PRECISELY that reason! My unencrypted internet-footprint consists of MR and a couple of other tech-forums on which I regularly post.

 

[WatchFromAfar]

I think it depends very much on a case-by-case basis.

If you rob a bank, the NSA is unlikely to get involved.

If you blow up a building, drive a truck into a crowd, or shootup a crowd of concert-goers, the NSA might be convinced to help...
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I'm sorry; but I don't understand the question.

Apple doesn't back-up any of my data (AFAIK). I use a third-party cloud-backup that provides end-end encryption.
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Or just do what I do, and ELECT to NOT use any iCloud services. You don't HAVE to, ya know...

I'm getting bored of"AFAIK" as a get out clause; but here we go, if you purchase a new iPhone and log-on to Apple's services do they not install your apps and wallpaper for you from a previous iPhone? hmmm how do they know; I thought it was all encrypted and Apple has no idea about that data?

 

[code-m]

Apple search? No adverts. Blocking adverts is not the discussion being a product is the discussion and you’ve essentially just proved the point.


No. With a car comlany or Apple you buy in to the ecosystem by purchasing hardware. Recommendation of services is a normal business practice. Opposed to google where the first thing you see are adverts. Why? You are the product.


I said previously getting emails and postcards are optin. Differentiated from google where your opt in is an ad blocker.


All companies share data is an unproven statement. A better statement is with Apple you are customer and google you are the product.


Using ad-blockers with google is an admission you are the product with them. Apple gives you a way to opt out of everything, google gives you a way of opting out of nothing. That says it all.

I’m not picking on google or facebook, it’s inherent in their business model. They don’t make money from hardware, they make money from your data.

Tim Cook says “you” are not the product. I’m not being pedantic, but those words ring truer than internet posters who claim otherwise.

You are being feed ads even on websites, MR included. I use adblocks for website as I do not use Google search (personal preference), it has nothing to do with ads on Google search, plus those ads are clearly labeled. Apple does not have a search engine product, if their did I am sure there would have ads on their much like Microsoft’s Bing. I think you are mistaken that I use ad blockers for Google search, which is not. Considering most ads on websites are driven by Google says something that their are good at that business (I am neither for or against). Apple tried with iAds and failed (not laughing just pointing out facts). Had iAds been successful who knows.

You buy into the AndroidOS/Google eco system too when you purchase supporting hardware. I never received recommendations for products or services from Google either and the first thing I say was not ads.

Google search engine is free same like Microsoft Bing, and guess what there are ads on both platforms. Apple does not compete in this space, if there did I am sure ads will be part of it.

You are a customer and a product with Apple, Google, Microsoft or anyone else for that matter. It is business intelligence, Cook claiming otherwise is faulty logic, it has been proven time and again that even Jobs would go back on his words. It is just the way the market space is. What I am saying is that a CEO will say anything to cater to the popular opinion of its user base. Jobs did not do this, Cook on the other hand is another story.

Using an adblocker is an admission to nothing. If one uses a condom or birth control that does not mean one or both parties has an STI/STD or wants or does not want to get pregnant (birth control used for other purposes). It is just practising safety. I view using an adblocker the same way. It does not mean I despise ads, I am just not in the market for such products.

When you shop on Amazon, those cookies know what product you are interested in, what price you are willing to pay, etc. I use an adblocker also to get a fair market value price on an item I purchase from Amazon.

Apples future focus is on services vice hardware, guess what their will evolve into. I can purchase an expensive iOS device or an expensive AndroidOS hardware, what difference does that make as both companies got my money. Apple provided me 5GB of free iCloud storage and Google provided me 100GB of free Drive storage, I use neither. Apple by default suggests you to use and backup to iCloud, Google not the case.

Am I a product to both these companies, I sure am. However am I claiming once is not using me as a product nope. I know how to opt-out and protect myself, doing anything otherwise you are merely opening yourself for adverts.

 

[I7guy]

You are being feed ads even on websites, MR included. I use adblocks for website as I do not use Google search (personal preference), it has nothing to do with ads on Google search, plus those ads are clearly labeled. Apple does not have a search engine product, if their did I am sure there would have ads on their much like Microsoft’s Bing. I think you are mistaken that I use ad blockers for Google search, which is not. Considering most ads on websites are driven by Google says something that their are good at that business (I am neither for or against). Apple tried with iAds and failed (not laughing just pointing out facts). Had iAds been successful who knows.

What does MR even have to do with discussion? Nothing. You can opt out of Apple ads and change the advert identifier. Can you opt out if google ads? No because you are the product with Apple you are the customer.

You buy into the AndroidOS/Google eco system too when you purchase supporting hardware. I never received recommendations for products or services from Google either and the first thing I say was not ads.

I receive ads from google without purchasing any product.

Google search engine is free same like Microsoft Bing, and guess what there are ads on both platforms. Apple does not compete in this space, if there did I am sure ads will be part of it.

With bing you sre the product just like google.

You are a customer and a product with Apple, Google, Microsoft or anyone else for that matter. It is business intelligence, Cook claiming otherwise is faulty logic, it has been proven time and again that even Jobs would go back on his words. It is just the way the market space is. What I am saying is that a CEO will say anything to cater to the popular opinion of its user base. Jobs did not do this, Cook on the other hand is another story.

You are the customer with Apple and Honda and the product with google, Facebook and bing. We are not discussing cook going back in his word, if you want to believe that the universe isnt with you. We are discussing at all appearances, with Apple you are the customer and google you are the product.

Using an adblocker is an admission to nothing. If one uses a condom or birth control that does not mean one or both parties has an STI/STD or wants or does not want to get pregnant (birth control used for other purposes). It is just practising safety. I view using an adblocker the same way. It does not mean I despise ads, I am just not in the market for such products.

Using an ad-blocker in google websites is the very definition of admitting they treat you like the product. The hyperbolic std analogy is over the top.

When you shop on Amazon, those cookies know what product you are interested in, what price you are willing to pay, etc. I use an adblocker also to get a fair market value price on an item I purchase from Amazon.

Amazon treats you like a customer and provides information to make an informed decision.

Apples future focus is on services vice hardware, guess what their will evolve into. I can purchase an expensive iOS device or an expensive AndroidOS hardware, what difference does that make as both companies got my money. Apple provided me 5GB of free iCloud storage and Google provided me 100GB of free Drive storage, I use neither. Apple by default suggests you to use and backup to iCloud, Google not the case.

Not sure how you know apple’s future focus. But this still has little to do with either the thread or being a cusomter or product.

Am I a product to both these companies, I sure am. However am I claiming once is not using me as a product nope. I know how to opt-out and protect myself, doing anything otherwise you are merely opening yourself for adverts.

You are a product to google and a customer to Apple. I’m sure if a poll was taken there would be mixed results, but that is my opinion. Your definition of product and customer is quite different from mine. No harm, no foul there.