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Apple to Let EU Users Set New Defaults for Multiple Apps, Delete App Store, Photos, Messages and More
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Being restricted to only two choices - including all of the bads - isn’t a choice I should have to make for something as important as a smartphone that I use to organise my life, access my finances, etc. And neither should a developer have to make it.
Government should step in regulate the markets, so that the „bad“ things about the product get unbundled and challenged by competition. Especially when they are merely artificial restrictions that the dominant company put in place on their products.
Absolutely.
And a bit more choice - what the DMA enables - is even better. 👍🏻
Apple clearly had a monopoly for distribution of iOS applications to consumers - applications that were made for and run on only one OS.
No. Feel free to argue for less consumer choice, less choice for small developers and more and ever-increasing power for biggest tech companies in the world. Just prepare for a retort when you‘re branding others posts as ridiculous defending of lousy legislation“.
There aren‘t. Mobile phones are (to a great part) bought on the basis of operatig system/app ecosystem first. Of which there aren’t hundreds.
It doesn’t. You‘re trying to fool yourself and others.
Look, I‘m against increasing power of big tech corporations any further. When I huy an Android phone instead and have to get my apps from Google Play - a platform that has an even greater share of the market, as many detractors of the DMA (@surferfb and also you) never cease to claim, that does notsend a real message against the increasing power of big tech companies in the smartphone market. It only increases Google‘s even further - which I‘m even less inclined to, given their market power in search and online video.
In Android world for years, it was possible to create alternative appstores. How many such successful stores we have, which are not manufacturer/telecom bloatware? Not much, I would say. So, in the end, on high level, most probably DMA will not change anything, as for iOS it grants what was for years granted on Android and in big picture, it didn't change much (if anything).
Well in a Democracy a government is elected by a majority of voters, that is the case in the EU (unlike the US). People accepting Democracies as the method for governance, accept the fact that if who they vote for is not elected to be the gov, it’s not a problem. They will still have representation in the parliement. Next time is the other way around.
Judging by your text it seams that you have a problem with concept of Democracy itself. In the EU people believe that internet devices people and Internet services provider they use should follow Net Neutral principles. They have been gradually noticing that iPhone / iOS is not … quite the opposite. So they set regulations for all devices of a kind to be. The EU choice for Net Neutrality is done a long time ago. OEMs not happy with it, can simply either build their own global network infrastructure and offer as a product to compete against the Internet way, down and up. Or leave the market, people are ready to accept it. Using Net Neutrality as a platform to prosper to then undermine it will not happen.
A person play the role of voter in elections, a buyer when buy a product or subscribing to a service and a consumer when it consumes it . Same
Person. The distinction is only context based but the person is the same, same mind, same beliefs, same integrity, same life.
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Being restricted to something is a thing with every consumer product you purchase.
No government should not step in and micro regulate markets. Especially when there are laws aplenty covering many aspects of commerce and finance.
In your opinion. Mine is different.
No it doesn't. It has a monopoly on the iphone and ios for sure like Honda has a monopoly on the Accord. Right now there is no case law that I am aware of, that says different.
Feel free to argue for worse experience for consumers, cheapening of the ios ecosystem, more malware etc.
You doubting there are hundreds of cell phone manufacturers? It's a quick google search to find the answer.
That's the way it really works. Ask Blackberry.
Then don't use big tech. You may not like your digital existence, but you won't die. However, you will suffer consequences with bad air, no electricity and bad food and a life without petrol. There's quite the difference.
Are you saying google is the only other supplier with phone apps in the entire world. That seems hyperbolic.
This debate is outside the scope of this thread.
I think this is a projected thought and not what was said.
It's tough to build a market when there is a monopoly on the distribution of the spectrum. If the spectrum was free and unfettered you would believe there would be much more choice. But it's not, it's controlled by a government monopoly.
No I think it's different. But it's good that we can all air our views.
For you a Goverment or a Union of Governements is akin to a Company having Monopoly. An alternate orthography to what is the role of a Governements and Parliements. In Democracies Parleaments are democratically elected. Once elected they act with the people’s mandate.
Again you seem a have a problem with Democracies.
The market is not controlled by Governments, but regulated by governmental agencies with the people’s mandate given with free elections.
For instance, the US Stock Market is regulated by SEC. Companies have to comply with meriad of regulations / conditions to be able to participate in such a market, before getting their IPO. That is controlled by SEC in the US. Can we say that SEC control the Stock Market? Can any company, say a bakery shop in your street by simply free will declare its own IPO? … no, SEC would not allow it.
PS: For years the ones that I voted for did not managed to get enough votes to elected for Gov. Many policies I don’t agree with where made yet, legitimacy to make them was never in question in my mind even though it might conflict with mine, or my opinion. Now, we can challenge those legally in many ways, but that is not an excuse to avoid compliance when enacted.
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Substitute land for airwaves.
You seem to have an issue criticizing government.
Yes and there is planet of regulations to go around protecting consumers.
I did mention financial markets, air, food, water as industries where carefully applied laws are needed.
Who is not complying with laws? Be specific and provide citations for convictions.
For what it’s worth, no one is arguing the EU doesn’t have the right to pass and enforce the DMA, or Apple shouldn’t comply, or that the DMA is somehow illegitimate.
We think it’s bad policy that is going to make products and experiences worse for its citizens, and in actuality have the opposite effect of what they are trying to achieve, while turning the EU to a tech backwater (or “optimistically” make them almost entirely dependent on Chinese tech) because said bureaucrats are incapable of actually thinking through the results of their regulations.
But no one is saying it isn’t a legitimate law. We’re saying it’s a stupid one, written by bureaucrats who in the real world couldn’t get hired to design Apple’s packaging, let alone how iOS works. But those bureaucrats have been tasked with designing parts of iOS now and they get to. And Apple should absolutely comply. Comply to the absolute minimum extent possible, but comply none the less.
So why does Apple so steadfastly refuse to comply in good faith?
No, actually not.
For years, we as consumers could freely install application software on even the biggest (general-purpose) computing platforms. It was fine. It brought about innovation. And there was a balance of power between operating systems and their developers - and third-party software developer and their apps.
It's the increasing running of software, encryption and technological connectedness that manufacturers are now leveraging to restrict access to products that work perfectly fine otherwise - and charge for unlocking that access at no cost to manufacturer (it's just a "switch" in software) but high fees to consumers.
Rossmann explained it well a few days ago (side note: notice how similar the "bootlicking" comment he quotes from the 2:05 mark reads to the most prolific DMA detractors here, among them you?).
You seem to be purposely misreading.
I was talking about distribution of apps to iOS customers.
That proves you are purposely misreading.
Cause my comment was about operating systems.
And you know that, cause I've told you multiple times on the forum:
The market for smartphones (hardware devices) isn't regulated, the DMA isn't about that.
Government doesn't limit itself to only regulating or addressing questions of life and death.
And neither does my smartphone usage. Or anyone's.
If I can't access my bank account, use apps to navigate public transit and keep in touch with my friends, colleague and family I'm not going to die - but I'll suffer.
The are complying in good faith. That's what happens when you have an ambiguous law. (I know those in the EU believe the law is ironclad)
It actually is.
There is no balance of power law in market distribution. You are just going on your opinion here. There is no law that requires costco to sell Sams' club private label.
More opinions on top of opinions.
No I'm disagreeing. That's a huge difference. Apple has a monopoly, because they own the ios app store, the same way other companies have a monopoly on their products And you have failed to show any legal opinion on your theory.
No, you are misleading. I am disagreeing.
Yes, you've moved the goalposts. I've repeatedly said the market for cell phones is in the hundreds.
Nobody said it does. Government can do what it wants and hopefully is held accountable by it's citizens. And by virtue of this forum one can have an opinion on those laws.
I don't know about you, but I have 10 ways to Sunday to navigate, keep in touch, withdraw and move money. All of them on multiple platforms including POTS. Cheers!
For what it's worth, you've called it "government theft", un"justified", "not warrant"ed by market share, "intentionally aimed to hurt US tech companies", "steal(ing) Apple's IP" (twice..), "without a legitimate reason"...
👉 While you've stated (more than once) that it's legal, that clearly suggests you do consider it "somehow illegitimate".
One can't help but notice the irony that the most prominent detractors of the DMA here seem to hail from the U.S. of A.-Washington - not from Europe.
If you don't mind me asking: Why are you so concerned about EU citizens having worse experiences and the EU turning into tech backwater? You're not living in the EU, and you're not impacted by its legislation, are you?
the fact that EU citizens dont criticize the dma is probably bias. The fact that those that hail from the US of A criticize the DMA , according to you, is probably the thought of overreaching governmental regulation.
I can think a law is bad or immoral without saying the government that instituted didn’t have a legitimate right to do so. Since this thread isn’t in “Politics” I won’t list American laws/policies/regulations that I vehemently disagree with/find immoral, but I assure you it’s a lot of them.
In addition, my brother, who I am very close with, is an EU permanent resident who should have citizenship in his adopted EU country by the end of the year.
So - long way of saying - I have lots of ties to the EU, and I actually care about it a lot.
As I said above, I’m not going to list things because this thread isn’t in the politics section, but in most instances I think the EU countries do a better job of taking care of their citizens than the US does, and I bet you and I agree on more EU regulations than we disagree on. I just think they seem to have a massive blind spot when it comes to tech regulations.
I lived in the EU during many of my formative years, and hope to buy property there and (potentially) retire there. I speak a (non-English) major EU language fluently, have many friends in the EU. I travel there at least once a year. I enjoy European literature, watch European TV, and am a big fan of several European sports leagues/teams.
In addition, my brother, who I am very close with, is an EU permanent resident who should have citizenship in his adopted EU country by the end of the year.
So - long way of saying - I have lots of ties to the EU, and I actually care about it a lot.
As I said above, I’m not going to list things because this thread isn’t in the politics section, but in most instances I think the EU countries do a better job of taking care of their citizens than the US does, and I bet you and I agree on more EU regulations than we disagree on. I just think they seem to have a massive blind spot when it comes to tech regulations.
Nothing sums up the level of contempt for other users who had no legislative requirement to have opened up OS that your statement above.
You have displayed an absolute lack of understanding about coding as well.
To say "disabled, inactive code doesn't count". Please, give me a break.
I supported legacy code for Defence.
We would add code and test thoroughly to ensure it didnt have any impact on existing functions.
Also, while many of us suspected lots of legacy code was not used anymore, we would comment it out and retest.
Sometimes it didnt seem to do anything, other times the whole processing routine would fail.
So little of it was well documented it was scary.
Same with the bank code I supported.
Watching customer statements grind to a halt for three days with managers hovering when some weird snippet of code suddenly impacted the rest due to some weird aligning of the stars that triggered that code.
You cannot guarantee the "commented out, disabled code" wont trigger at all.
If the code is in the device, it can be used (well not the commented out bit but the stuff that is switched on or off via some variable).
So please stop pretending your beloved EU forced change cannot have an affect on other users.
Did you even answer what app you HAVE to have an iPhone to use?
Wasn’t changing password managers already possible? I used to use 1password instead of safari keychain
Yes regulates, airwaves, airspace, traffic, land ... all that Jazz. I don't remember that being much of a problem until now.
Own a house and land probably has you do. The state regulates many aspects of it as it does to your house. Just the other day had to do some changes at my expense because fluvial waters not running through it as stated by regulations.
It seams to be putting Apple at a higher position when it comes to regulations than your properties.
Not really. Yet ...
I do have an issue when entities trying to convince the general population and their businesses that their privacy is more protected ... their property is safer from harm ... their businesses will perform better ... if they only buy then internet connected devices and hand it over along their own cash registers. All for the sake of the goodness of their future and innovation.
I do have an issue when people argue that their choice to use one Shop on their device to get their goods and services is hampered by the fact that others on the same kind of device (iOS) may choose to use it together with other channels for such purpose. All arguing either for more choice or less choice depending how it plays in narrative.
I do have an issue when someone argue for the goodness of Net Neutrality principles and regulation yet builds a device and business on the back of it, undermine it.
None of this is standard consumer thinking. But then argue that the DMA is bad for consumers.
I do have an issue with businesses and consumers that actually fall into the trap of negotiating against themselves.
Of course this is said not in such a crude way. It's all usually conveyed in a swamp of Ketchup.
All these stances are more understandable when the carriers of these thoughts happen to own a slice of the pie of the business fomenting such business workflows and patterns of thought. Only for that matter, I don't really take it so seriously.
Otherwise such patterns of thought on consumer or third party business owner would be disturbing. It’s kids stuff.
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All of this before the dma. No threading the needle for anything other than the dma.
Nope. They operated a legal business even if you didn’t endorse it.
Okay. The above is your opinion. But yeah, much of this here is irrational.
I was never of the opinion that Apple was doing anything other than legal.
So this remark is irrelevant for this exchange.
Just as i7Guy’s, you can consider them placeholder examples to make a point.
That said, my primary document processor app is Apple Pages.
Contempt is the right word to describe Apple‘s attitude and behaviour towards third-party developers.
And it‘s also the one I have for Apple’s anticompetitive and abusive behaviour.
I also have, admittedly, little sympathy for the users that believe we should submit our entire lives and digital transactions on handheld devices to the richest company in the world - just for having bought into one of two relevant OS (a duopoly) and their app ecosystems.
Can’t guarantee it - but your comment is FUD nonetheless.
The ”issue“ of setting default applications has been solved quite safely. On macOS and other operating systems. It’s not as if iOS was free of cruft today. And Apple are putting in many other bits of new code with every release. The new mirroring code - don’t tell me that isn’t as potentially dangerous to get access to iPhones as the other changes, or…
Yes. Think about the dangers of a third-party, cross-platform cloud-synced password manager that gets browser access.
👉 But that of course enabled Apple to increase its sweet commission share of subscription payment from third-party password managers. And that’s just a small thing compared to…
If you’re oh-sooo concerned about it, how about you advocate that Apple remove all of the „sideloading“ enterprise app code they put in, which allows ordinary end users to install unreviewed applications without a developer subscription? Where were you when Apple incorporated that?!
That’s far more dangerous than the FUD you’re presenting here - and it’s active in many (all?) of their regions and devices, out of the box, around the globe.
👉🏻 Yet again… it of course enabled Apple to sell millions more of devices to enterprise users.
Apple get away with making it potentially less secure and endangering their users when they’re making more money from it. But every small that could cost them money be damned as a security risk?
Spare me the hypocrisy!
PS:
I7guy’s a user‘s favourite app leaves Apple‘s App Store for another store. Cause I get it, updating from two different stores may involve slightly more effort. That said…
1. Registering with another store to buy or subscribe isn’t the end in the world, considering it’s for your favourite app.
2. Given the attitude this particular user has shown in so many threads like this, I would feel o sympathy in this case (his favourite apps leaving the App Store for another store). Quite the contrary.
I’d rather consider it a experiencing healthy dose „of his own medicine“:
„Corporations should greedily be seeking rent.
They can do whatever they like, no matter how anticompetitive or bad for users it is.
Take it or leave it and vote with your $$$“
I‘d usually show a modicum of sympathy when
1. Registering with another store to buy or subscribe isn’t the end in the world, considering it’s for your favourite app.
2. Given the attitude this particular user has shown in so many threads like this, I would feel o sympathy in this case (his favourite apps leaving the App Store for another store). Quite the contrary.
I’d rather consider it a experiencing healthy dose „of his own medicine“:
„Corporations should greedily be seeking rent.
They can do whatever they like, no matter how anticompetitive or bad for users it is.
Take it or leave it and vote with your $$$“
Absurd.
You say you have one app and when pushed "it's an example"? Really.
I'll spare you anything from now on except an Thumbs Down on ridiculous posts.
It's disingenuous in the extreme to pretend to have a discussion with someone who makes claims they are just making up...
It's not FUD to be explaining what happens in the real world and how any extra code can open a door for issues or malicious intent. As happens on Android devices because of the open loading nature of that OS.
Done...
when someone says they need an app ONLY on iPhone and it isnt true... geez.
sorry but time wasters for everyone being genuine on this forum.
credibility blown. they are just here to argue...
i hope the mods see it for what it is. and take action.
Alternative app stores seem to have been quite niche in the past, I agree. But I would be careful to extrapolate this observation into the future. Only a couple of years ago I would have laughed at the idea of alternative app stores on iPhone. Today I am much more comfortable with the idea. As users, we collectively learn new concepts and techniques. The idea of downloading the Epic/Steam/Netflix store to install games could very well become completely accepted and normal in just a couple of years.