Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.
More expensive is generally better is the kind of mindset that really brought US to the place where it is now.

You're about to have Donald Trump as your president, your most followed celebrity is Kim Kardashian, your most beloved singer is Kanye West, and your children are shooting each other in schools. Your government accidentally created Al Qaeda and ISIS.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Indians are not just taking your low/mid level jobs, they are heading your companies (MS, Google, Softbank, Pepsi, Adobe, Mastercard, Sandisk) as well.
First, I am not an American.

Second, I didn't say that more expensive is better. I said that better is better.

Third, I never said that Indians are not good enough. I said that all the good Indians are in the US (where, yes, they are even heading big companies).

So your whole reply to my post is based on weird assumptions and an inability or unwillingness to comprehend what I had written.

And as a sidenote: What brought the US to where it is right now was rather the attitude that cheap and low-quality is good enough. The walmartization of America was not driven by people who thought that "expensive is better". And people who believe that cheap and low-quality is good enough are the ones who open "innovation" centers in India.
 
First, I am not an American.

Second, I didn't say that more expensive is better. I said that better is better.

Third, I never said that Indians are not good enough. I said that all the good Indians are in the US (where, yes, they are even heading big companies).

So your whole reply to my post is based on weird assumptions and an inability or unwillingness to comprehend what I had written.

And as a sidenote: What brought the US to where it is right now was rather the attitude that cheap and low-quality is good enough. The walmartization of America was not driven by people who thought that "expensive is better". And people who believe that cheap and low-quality is good enough are the ones who open "innovation" centers in India.

As someone who IS American, what brought America to where it is now is the blind thought that America is invulnerable. American Exceptionalism dates all the way back to the horrible manifest destiny days. You yourself said that the best would go to the US, or Europe. What an insult to Indians who choose to stay in their own country. Guess what? None of these poor unwashed nations need your rescue, nor mine. They are perfectly capable of competing and making adult decisions on their own.

And I'll be the first to say that often Americans make idiotic decisions, which just leads to more undesirable outcomes. Then they wring their hands, cry out "How did this happen?!" and demand some compensation for what they think they deserve. It's embarrassing.
 
Last edited:
Is is normal that if they have a ton of money originating overseas sitting idle, they spend some over there.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zirel
It would kill Apple and other US companies to throw down $25mil for these places here in the US? I understand the need to get their foot in the door in India. But US citizens need jobs to.

It would cost them $50M to invest $25M in foreign profits in the US due to the confiscatory tax policies in the US.

The US government doesn't believe Apple should create US jobs, only that they should be double taxed on income.
 
This is just India forcing Apple to "invest" millions in their country as a bribe in order to get approval to open Apple stores. The money will go into bureaucrats' pockets. India is abysmally corrupt to the core.

I understand the resentment, but didn't they just have a massive overhaul and formed a new government?
Corruption is still a major problem in almost all of the developing countries.
Heck India stands at 76th rank in the global corruption perception index, China is at 83.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#2015
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: diseasedanimal
It would cost them $50M to invest $25M in foreign profits in the US due to the confiscatory tax policies in the US.

According to Apple estimates, theyd have to bring in ~$37 million. After ~$12 million in unpaid taxes, they'd be left with $25 million.

However, there's no need to use their foreign cash holdings. They could instead do what they already do now when they need cash in the US: borrow the money, since that's far cheaper.

The US government doesn't believe Apple should create US jobs, only that they should be double taxed on income.

Well, it wouldn't really be double taxation, since Apple hasn't even paid normal taxes overseas to most countries, due to their clever Irish setup.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Avalontor
This is just India forcing Apple to "invest" millions in their country as a bribe in order to get approval to open Apple stores. The money will go into bureaucrats' pockets. India is abysmally corrupt to the core.
Way off base. India's past corruption is being rapidly reined in, not to mention that even if it came as a result of a negotiation, it's not an unusual practice in developing countries nor is it corrupt to ask a company to setup operations in a country in exchange for being able to sell there.
 
Last edited:
Opening development centers in India is not about accepting the potential contributions of Indians - every tech company is doing that a thousand times over. It's only about sacrificing quality for lowest cost and raw quantity of resources.

Apple didn't do anything and you are already accusing them, like they owe you anything.

No, it's not about that, it's cementing presence in India, so the Indian government will accept Apple stores and lower their sales taxes, so Apple can have decent prices there.

Jeez, some people just can't understand the basics of global trade.

Ask the Portuguese, the Spanish, the English what they did in territories like Goa, Macau and Hong Kong.

Just like the US won't just let Huawei in, India won't just let Apple in.
 
That statement is generally correct. But let's not forget that Indians ARE already a major part of the Apple workforce - in the US.

Every Indian who is good enough to go to the US will go to the US. Those left behind will try to go to the UK or Germany. Those left behind are... well... you do the math how good they are. That is not a prejudice. Every Indian will confirm that: The best Indians work abroad. The cheap Indians work in India.

Opening development centers in India is not about accepting the potential contributions of Indians - every tech company is doing that a thousand times over. It's only about sacrificing quality for lowest cost and raw quantity of resources.
This is false on so many levels. India's top universities put out huge numbers of extremely talented individuals. Only a small fraction of those are able to get visas to work and stay in the US, Germany, and the U.K.. And a large and increasing number choose not to pursue jobs abroad in the first place. It's indeed prejudiced to imply that the "leftovers" are just that, and dishonest to imply that Indians would support or agree with such a notion.
 
As someone who IS American, what brought America to where it is now is the blind thought that America is invulnerable. American Exceptionalism dates all the way back to the horrible manifest destiny days. You yourself said that the best would go to the US, or Europe. What an insult to Indians who choose to stay in their own country. Guess what? None of these poor unwashed nations need your rescue, nor mine. They are perfectly capable of competing and making adult decisions on their own.
It's funny how people want to twist what I said into some kind of racism, when I did in fact acknowledge that there are extremely good engineers who are doing great work in the US.

Speak to an Indian sometime, instead of applying your own American cultural sensitivities to another culture. I find it more insulting to another culture to say that people there think like Americans.

You also had a problem comprehending what I had written. I never wrote that it is best to go to the US or Europe. Nowhere did I make such a statement. You had to put that statement in my mouth to be able to shove the term "manifest destiny" into your post. I said that Indians WANT to go to the US or Europe. I never said that it is good for an individual Indian or India as a whole. It is simply what is happening. And every Indian will confirm it. I am only reiterating what I have been told in countless conversations with Indian engineers. Like I said, speak to some Indians yourself sometime and learn to understand other cultures.
[doublepost=1455434002][/doublepost]
This is false on so many levels. India's top universities put out huge numbers of extremely talented individuals. Only a small fraction of those are able to get visas to work and stay in the US, Germany, and the U.K.. And a large and increasing number choose not to pursue jobs abroad in the first place. It's indeed prejudiced to imply that the "leftovers" are just that, and dishonest to imply that Indians would support or agree with such a notion.
I can only tell you what I have told others: Speak with Indians about the topic instead of arguing "What you say is a lie, because it is not politically correct." It's a pretty strong thing to call someone a liar (or to use a fancy word: "dishonest") based on the one single argument of political correctness.

As far as the huge numbers of extremely talented individuals go: That is an urban legend. The universities put out huge numbers of graduates. That is true. But where do you get the idea from that there is a very high number of extremely talented individuals? Is thos based on statistics or hearsay? It's the latter, isn't it?

In the US or Europe, people go into engineering, because they enjoy dealing with technical and mathematical issues. It's called "affinity". That is not always the case in India. In India, there is a HUGE pressure from families on the children to become engineers. That implies that a lot of people enter India's universities without any affinity for engineering. But an affinity for a topic is a precondition for being "extremely talented. So yes, there are extremely talented people coming out of India's universities, but they are a small portion. And I know people will want to twist this into racism again, but once again: It's not because Indians are dumb. It's because someone who wanted to become an architect but studied electrical engineering because his father wanted him to will not become a great engineer.

I have worked both in the US and in Europe. When I came to America and dealt with Indian engineers for the first time, I thought like you: "Wow, these guys are so amazingly great! I can't believe there's a million of them each year." Really, their skill was humbling. Then I went to Europe and dealt with development teams in India. So I can say from very personal experience that there is a huge difference in quality between these three groups. I have worked with Indians in the US, in Europe and in India. I have had very extensive conversations with them (heck, one third of my Facebook friends are Indians). I have attended Indian weddings. I have interviewed Indians for job positions. I manage Indians, and I have an Indian in the management chain above me. All my contacts at my customer are Indians. What I have is extensive experience over 20 years, which is the opposite of prejudice. I bet you have no experience on the topic - which is equal to prejudice.
 
Way off base. India's past corruption is being rapidly reined in, not to mention that even if it came as a result of a negotiation, it's not an unusual practice in developing countries nor is it corrupt to ask a company to setup operations in a country in exchange for being able to sell there.

I'm not going to waste my time debating an India apologist.
[doublepost=1455440846][/doublepost]
I understand the resentment, but didn't they just have a massive overhaul and formed a new government?
Corruption is still a major problem in almost all of the developing countries.
Heck India stands at 76th rank in the global corruption perception index, China is at 83.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_Perceptions_Index#2015

The only thing that will change India is abolition of idolatry.
 
Because Apple, like most adults, have accepted that the United States isn't the only country on earth with people who have potential to contribute to the human race.

Nothing to do with developing the human race, it's a consumer products company.....Its about economic growth, contribution is to profit. This goes for all large companies .
[doublepost=1455444111][/doublepost]
It's funny how people want to twist what I said into some kind of racism, when I did in fact acknowledge that there are extremely good engineers who are doing great work in the US.

Speak to an Indian sometime, instead of applying your own American cultural sensitivities to another culture. I find it more insulting to another culture to say that people there think like Americans.

You also had a problem comprehending what I had written. I never wrote that it is best to go to the US or Europe. Nowhere did I make such a statement. You had to put that statement in my mouth to be able to shove the term "manifest destiny" into your post. I said that Indians WANT to go to the US or Europe. I never said that it is good for an individual Indian or India as a whole. It is simply what is happening. And every Indian will confirm it. I am only reiterating what I have been told in countless conversations with Indian engineers. Like I said, speak to some Indians yourself sometime and learn to understand other cultures.
[doublepost=1455434002][/doublepost]
I can only tell you what I have told others: Speak with Indians about the topic instead of arguing "What you say is a lie, because it is not politically correct." It's a pretty strong thing to call someone a liar (or to use a fancy word: "dishonest") based on the one single argument of political correctness.

As far as the huge numbers of extremely talented individuals go: That is an urban legend. The universities put out huge numbers of graduates. That is true. But where do you get the idea from that there is a very high number of extremely talented individuals? Is thos based on statistics or hearsay? It's the latter, isn't it?

In the US or Europe, people go into engineering, because they enjoy dealing with technical and mathematical issues. It's called "affinity". That is not always the case in India. In India, there is a HUGE pressure from families on the children to become engineers. That implies that a lot of people enter India's universities without any affinity for engineering. But an affinity for a topic is a precondition for being "extremely talented. So yes, there are extremely talented people coming out of India's universities, but they are a small portion. And I know people will want to twist this into racism again, but once again: It's not because Indians are dumb. It's because someone who wanted to become an architect but studied electrical engineering because his father wanted him to will not become a great engineer.

I have worked both in the US and in Europe. When I came to America and dealt with Indian engineers for the first time, I thought like you: "Wow, these guys are so amazingly great! I can't believe there's a million of them each year." Really, their skill was humbling. Then I went to Europe and dealt with development teams in India. So I can say from very personal experience that there is a huge difference in quality between these three groups. I have worked with Indians in the US, in Europe and in India. I have had very extensive conversations with them (heck, one third of my Facebook friends are Indians). I have attended Indian weddings. I have interviewed Indians for job positions. I manage Indians, and I have an Indian in the management chain above me. All my contacts at my customer are Indians. What I have is extensive experience over 20 years, which is the opposite of prejudice. I bet you have no experience on the topic - which is equal to prejudice.

Your views are inline with my experience . One of my best mates is Indian. My experience with dealing with Indian development teams and individuals is vastly different between EU and India itself. I don't have experience with US Dev teams
 
It would kill Apple and other US companies to throw down $25mil for these places here in the US? I understand the need to get their foot in the door in India. But US citizens need jobs to.

Apple's new campus in Cupertino is expected to cost $5 Billion ($5,000 Million). That is 200 times the $25 Million number quoted in this article.
 
It's funny how people want to twist what I said into some kind of racism, when I did in fact acknowledge that there are extremely good engineers who are doing great work in the US.

Speak to an Indian sometime, instead of applying your own American cultural sensitivities to another culture. I find it more insulting to another culture to say that people there think like Americans.

You also had a problem comprehending what I had written. I never wrote that it is best to go to the US or Europe. Nowhere did I make such a statement. You had to put that statement in my mouth to be able to shove the term "manifest destiny" into your post. I said that Indians WANT to go to the US or Europe. I never said that it is good for an individual Indian or India as a whole. It is simply what is happening. And every Indian will confirm it. I am only reiterating what I have been told in countless conversations with Indian engineers. Like I said, speak to some Indians yourself sometime and learn to understand other cultures.
[doublepost=1455434002][/doublepost]
I can only tell you what I have told others: Speak with Indians about the topic instead of arguing "What you say is a lie, because it is not politically correct." It's a pretty strong thing to call someone a liar (or to use a fancy word: "dishonest") based on the one single argument of political correctness.

As far as the huge numbers of extremely talented individuals go: That is an urban legend. The universities put out huge numbers of graduates. That is true. But where do you get the idea from that there is a very high number of extremely talented individuals? Is thos based on statistics or hearsay? It's the latter, isn't it?

In the US or Europe, people go into engineering, because they enjoy dealing with technical and mathematical issues. It's called "affinity". That is not always the case in India. In India, there is a HUGE pressure from families on the children to become engineers. That implies that a lot of people enter India's universities without any affinity for engineering. But an affinity for a topic is a precondition for being "extremely talented. So yes, there are extremely talented people coming out of India's universities, but they are a small portion. And I know people will want to twist this into racism again, but once again: It's not because Indians are dumb. It's because someone who wanted to become an architect but studied electrical engineering because his father wanted him to will not become a great engineer.

I have worked both in the US and in Europe. When I came to America and dealt with Indian engineers for the first time, I thought like you: "Wow, these guys are so amazingly great! I can't believe there's a million of them each year." Really, their skill was humbling. Then I went to Europe and dealt with development teams in India. So I can say from very personal experience that there is a huge difference in quality between these three groups. I have worked with Indians in the US, in Europe and in India. I have had very extensive conversations with them (heck, one third of my Facebook friends are Indians). I have attended Indian weddings. I have interviewed Indians for job positions. I manage Indians, and I have an Indian in the management chain above me. All my contacts at my customer are Indians. What I have is extensive experience over 20 years, which is the opposite of prejudice. I bet you have no experience on the topic - which is equal to prejudice.

Someone speaks the truth right here.

This is exactly what happened in the current engineering college in US.
Also, look at Cisco and Apple software quality these days. Something should be obvious...
 
This is just India forcing Apple to "invest" millions in their country as a bribe in order to get approval to open Apple stores. The money will go into bureaucrats' pockets. India is abysmally corrupt to the core.
This guy gets it. The biggest problem holding India back has been its corruption.

I'm sure this is a tribute move to get the Apple retail stores up and running in India.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mums
Contribute what to the human race?

India is "just another untapped market" to Apple. They're not going there out of the goodness of their hearts. It's business.

This will also allow them to: 1) not worry as much about H1B allocation, 2) get the same talent at a lower hourly rate, and 3) utilize their offshore funds.

Financially it would make sense to: Develop in India -> Design in California -> Manufacture in China

It would at least make us feel a little warm in our heart to see the "Designed in California" words on the Apple products we buy, even though effectively all of the supply chain and manufacturing contribution is coming from non-US firms.
 
It's funny how people want to twist what I said into some kind of racism, when I did in fact acknowledge that there are extremely good engineers who are doing great work in the US.

Speak to an Indian sometime, instead of applying your own American cultural sensitivities to another culture. I find it more insulting to another culture to say that people there think like Americans.

You also had a problem comprehending what I had written. I never wrote that it is best to go to the US or Europe. Nowhere did I make such a statement. You had to put that statement in my mouth to be able to shove the term "manifest destiny" into your post. I said that Indians WANT to go to the US or Europe. I never said that it is good for an individual Indian or India as a whole. It is simply what is happening. And every Indian will confirm it. I am only reiterating what I have been told in countless conversations with Indian engineers. Like I said, speak to some Indians yourself sometime and learn to understand other cultures.
[doublepost=1455434002][/doublepost]
I can only tell you what I have told others: Speak with Indians about the topic instead of arguing "What you say is a lie, because it is not politically correct." It's a pretty strong thing to call someone a liar (or to use a fancy word: "dishonest") based on the one single argument of political correctness.

As far as the huge numbers of extremely talented individuals go: That is an urban legend. The universities put out huge numbers of graduates. That is true. But where do you get the idea from that there is a very high number of extremely talented individuals? Is thos based on statistics or hearsay? It's the latter, isn't it?

In the US or Europe, people go into engineering, because they enjoy dealing with technical and mathematical issues. It's called "affinity". That is not always the case in India. In India, there is a HUGE pressure from families on the children to become engineers. That implies that a lot of people enter India's universities without any affinity for engineering. But an affinity for a topic is a precondition for being "extremely talented. So yes, there are extremely talented people coming out of India's universities, but they are a small portion. And I know people will want to twist this into racism again, but once again: It's not because Indians are dumb. It's because someone who wanted to become an architect but studied electrical engineering because his father wanted him to will not become a great engineer.

I have worked both in the US and in Europe. When I came to America and dealt with Indian engineers for the first time, I thought like you: "Wow, these guys are so amazingly great! I can't believe there's a million of them each year." Really, their skill was humbling. Then I went to Europe and dealt with development teams in India. So I can say from very personal experience that there is a huge difference in quality between these three groups. I have worked with Indians in the US, in Europe and in India. I have had very extensive conversations with them (heck, one third of my Facebook friends are Indians). I have attended Indian weddings. I have interviewed Indians for job positions. I manage Indians, and I have an Indian in the management chain above me. All my contacts at my customer are Indians. What I have is extensive experience over 20 years, which is the opposite of prejudice. I bet you have no experience on the topic - which is equal to prejudice.

You basically called every talented/skilled Indian a sell out. That is wrong on so many levels. Do you even hear yourself saying that? Indians are one of the last few massively patriotic nations. You probably met some of them who migrated outside, and you have a very dim view of the entire Indian mindset. Yes our country is corrupt, yes it has huge problems. But we love it here, and trust me we're better off without your support and twisted perception of our realities.
 
  • Like
Reactions: CB1234
No "political offence" intended, but I don't get Apple's focus on developing countries like China or India. It's like the country's population is the only thing they care about other than if they are the US itself.

I think with China it was the rapidly expanding middle class. Suddenly lots of people have the money to buy iPhones. So many in fact, that Apple think they can sell more in China than the US. Not sure about India, though.
[doublepost=1455492805][/doublepost]
Looks like the shareholder got to Apple finally ... So long for the label "Designed in California" once they get hooked on the cheap labor it's all down hill.

I think the products will still be designed in California. Just some technology will be developed in India.

Isn't Apple's mentality 'start with the customer experience first and work back to the technology. Don't just sell whatever technology you have'? Like with the iPod, they had a product in mind, and found a company that could produce a small and reliable enough hard drive that could still hold 1,000 songs.
 
Every Indian who is good enough to go to the US will go to the US. Those left behind will try to go to the UK or Germany. Those left behind are... well... you do the math how good they are. That is not a prejudice. Every Indian will confirm that: The best Indians work abroad. The cheap Indians work in India.

I can't begin to explain to you how offensive this is. If you think this isn't prejudice, I can only feel sad for you.
 
This is the correct assessment. There is going to be no "innovation" here.
Agree. Most engineering outsourcing is maintenance and other forms of drudge work that cannot be effectively automated.

A lot of the first third party databases for phone numbers were done by overseas data entry people typing in the entire contents of a phone book. This was before OCR scanning and telecom companies opening up their databases for public access. There were even courts cases where phone book entries were intellectual property of the phone company or public domain data.
 
It's politic for any multi-national to spend money where they earn money. You can't cart it all back to your home nation in a wheelbarrow or hire only people from your home nation and expect the rest of the world to like you - it's all "take"and no "give." "Home" for a multi-national has to become everywhere in the world.

There are smart people, brilliant people, all over the world. Not all of them have the desire or social and economic advantages necessary to travel overseas for school or employment. And, as with money, if you take all the talent and leave none...

So, whether government-mandated or not, corrupt or pure, "fair" tax rates at "home" or not, Apple and companies like it are likely to invest in facilities and people throughout the world. In big nations it'll be in a big way, in smaller nations it'll be harder to see.

And that's that. Very Well said.
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.