Apple to Use Tesla's 'Megapack' Battery to Help Power Apple Park at New Energy Farm

[Makosuke]

"Tesla cars are unreliable"?? Compared to what, exactly? BMWs? ICE cars in general with oil changes, gear shift, brake pad and engine problems? ICE dealership networks that make their profits from endless repairs and part replacements? Or other EVs like the GM Bolt???

Compared to all other makes of cars, according to Consumer Reports and JD Power:

JD Power says Lexus is most dependable auto brand, ranks Tesla 30th out of 33

Tesla, Lincoln flunk Consumer Reports' 2020 reliability survey, Mazda takes first win
Consumer Reports is no longer recommending Tesla’s Model S and is panning the reliability of the new Model Y

Which aligns more or less with what I've heard from several actual Tesla owners. It's not that they aren't nice cars, or that there aren't ones that are fine, it's just that things happen like the entire roof of a Model 3 spontaneously cracking while the car is sitting there not moving.

So far as Musk is concerned, he too has all sort of negative sides. And yes, his wild overpromising is in the "fake it until I make it" category. But the fact is that too works -- he hires the very best engineers and pushes them into doing way more than they thought they were capable of. The results speak for themselves

The results do speak for themselves: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some of Musk's companies have delivered more or less as promised, some demonstrably haven't. But certainly none of them other than very early Tesla itself have delivered any more than you'd expect given the amount of money put into them.

I'm not so sure about the "very best" engineers, either. His companies certainly hire good engineers, and some of them at the highest levels are no doubt among the best, but based on several years of personal experience they aren't significantly better or worse than engineers at any other company of comparable size making similar products. That's not a knock on Tesla engineers, just that I think their reputation is unfairly inflated when there are many other companies working in the same spaces who have engineers just as good.

 

[Makosuke]

Uhh, W to V is not a typo, it's more like a complete misunderstanding.

Technically when one letter makes such a huge difference in meaning it's very difficult to tell the difference between a typo and a serious misunderstanding, in the same way the difference between a decimal and a comma in a (US standard) number could vastly change the result, but could be the result of an un-caught typo or a severe misunderstanding.

To use a computer analogy, people who are very used to typing MB, GB, and TB might occasionally type GB when they meant TB as an honest mistake (I've certainly done it), even though they mean very different things, and there's no way to tell the difference between that and someone who doesn't actually know the difference between GB and TB at all.

That said (unlike , and .) W and V are nowhere near each other on the keyboard, so it would be pretty much impossible to typo one for the other just fat-fingering it, and most people outside the utility industry don't type MW or MV with any regularity, so it does seem more likely to be the result of not really understanding what you're writing.

 

[trichardlin]

Technically when one letter makes such a huge difference in meaning it's very difficult to tell the difference between a typo and a serious misunderstanding, in the same way the difference between a decimal and a comma in a (US standard) number could vastly change the result, but could be the result of an un-caught typo or a severe misunderstanding.

To use a computer analogy, people who are very used to typing MB, GB, and TB might occasionally type GB when they meant TB as an honest mistake (I've certainly done it), even though they mean very different things, and there's no way to tell the difference between that and someone who doesn't actually know the difference between GB and TB at all.

That said (unlike , and .) W and V are nowhere near each other on the keyboard, so it would be pretty much impossible to typo one for the other just fat-fingering it, and most people outside the utility industry don't type MW or MV with any regularity, so it does seem more likely to be the result of not really understanding what you're writing.

Yeah, to me a typo is a slip of the finger, or what you called the fat finger. This is more of a slip of the eye, as in lower case L for capital I, which tells you the typer has no understanding of what she/he was typing.

 

[littleredwagen]

I like they are doing renewable energy, if you have the capital to invest in it great. But calling using batteries as carbon neutral is lie. Mining lithium is nasty stuff, over time yes it might be. To me renewable energy isn't batteries.

 

[rmariboe]

Err, 60MV? 100MV? ... 100 million volts?! I know this is April 1st, but this is fundamentally wrong. Tesla Megapacks typically operate in the 400-480V range (AC 3-phase). Perhaps you meant megawatt-hours? ie: 60 MWh? 100 MWh?

Other articles site it as MW - so probably the power delivery from the 240 MWh pack...

 

[maternidad]

April fools! Apple really cares about the environment when you can't replace the top case in your computer yourself as they will not provide the tool to calibrate the trackpad. And you can't replace the camera or screen in your iOS device as it has to be authorized to do so, even though you can connect it properly. Way to waive a false flag apple.

After warranty is up, most USB-C macs and newer iOS devices, even if they can be fixed are not allowed to be and forced to become junk that is unable to be donated.

Apple: here is my middle finger. I will vote for right to repair laws.

I am suspicious about the effect that this has in the environment. Do Apple customers intend to repair their devices so frequently?

 

[BigNTasty]

Apple and Tesla should just partner/cooperate/work very closely with each other and develop the best EV. Tesla is already the gold standard of cars, and I just cant imagine how far we will be blown away if these two things merge

Apple would bring nothing of value to the table.

 

[Makosuke]

Yeah, to me a typo is a slip of the finger, or what you called the fat finger. This is more of a slip of the eye, as in lower case L for capital I, which tells you the typer has no understanding of what she/he was typing.

Actually, it just occurred to me that this was probably supposed to be 60MVA, rather than 60MW (Tesla uses both terms in their literature, and both can be technically correct because of the way their inverters handle real and reactive power).

Which puts it back into the realm of a possible genuine typo, although given how few people have an understanding of the difference between Watts and VA or why a battery inverter would be rated in one versus the other, there's still a decent chance it got through because someone didn't really process what 60MVA meant.

More odd is that MR still hasn't fixed it.

 

[AdamNC]

April fools! Apple really cares about the environment when you can't replace the top case in your computer yourself as they will not provide the tool to calibrate the trackpad. And you can't replace the camera or screen in your iOS device as it has to be authorized to do so, even though you can connect it properly. Way to waive a false flag apple.

After warranty is up, most USB-C macs and newer iOS devices, even if they can be fixed are not allowed to be and forced to become junk that is unable to be donated.

Apple: here is my middle finger. I will vote for right to repair laws.

What does any of that BS have to do with a better environment?????

 

[rezenclowd3]

What does any of that BS have to do with a better environment?????

Too much gets tossed when it could be reused. Recycling in America is piss poor.

My shop throws away about 4 half ton truckloads a month of Apple Computers. Probably have of it could be built into computers that work for someone, but alas it's e-wasted because of Apple's repair policy (GSX users ONLY) and FindMy locks.

 

[trichardlin]

Actually, it just occurred to me that this was probably supposed to be 60MVA, rather than 60MW (Tesla uses both terms in their literature, and both can be technically correct because of the way their inverters handle real and reactive power).

Which puts it back into the realm of a possible genuine typo, although given how few people have an understanding of the difference between Watts and VA or why a battery inverter would be rated in one versus the other, there's still a decent chance it got through because someone didn't really process what 60MVA meant.

More odd is that MR still hasn't fixed it.

Yeah, that's a reasonable guess. The Verge article did say 60MW though.

 

[jerryk]

Jesus, how much power do American homes consume? 😵 Even if your hot water is electrically heated that's still more than double what a German home for 4-5 people consumes.

What do you heat with? Many American homes use electric-powered heat pumps and not natural gas. Heat pumps are also used for air conditioning. Also, American homes can be big (3000-4000 square feet, 275-370 square meters).

 

[AdamNC]

Too much gets tossed when it could be reused. Recycling in America is piss poor.

My shop throws away about 4 half ton truckloads a month of Apple Computers. Probably have of it could be built into computers that work for someone, but alas it's e-wasted because of Apple's repair policy (GSX users ONLY) and FindMy locks.

Recycling is a losing money venture. Take Fairfax County VA one of the richest counties in the US. They built in the 90's a 700 million dollar recycling center because everyone from the EPA, GreenPeace and other tree huggers said it was the future. The agreement with the state for the bond was it would pay for it self in less than 25 years. Estimated profit was projected by year 7 after completion 75 million. It was completed in 1994 I believe. It was state of the art. It had generated by 2000 only 3 million dollars. But operational costs... 25 million. In 2004 it was in the hole and cost taxpayers 33 million a year with no profit. They shut it down and this is the funny part all equipment was sold for scrap. Recycling doesn't make money. Look at how many cities have cut back funding. MSNBC even just a few weeks ago said you have to recycle 58 coke cans to get enough to make 1 replacement can. Plastics is even worse. and creates more toxic by products then producing.

 

[steve09090]

Uhh, W to V is not a typo, it's more like a complete misunderstanding.

Tell that to a Nordic customer.

actually repairing the device vs just swapping out at the genius bar. i had a iphone 7 that won't charge, apple wanted $360 to replace it out of warranty, took it to a repair shop that soldiered the damaged capacitor for 50 bucks.

That’s really about this business model, and supplying the factory quality model. But whatever, that doesn’t take away from the positives; it just means they can improve. Do Samsung take old phone/tablet models to recycle? If they did, that’d be their core business.

 

[Makosuke]

Yeah, that's a reasonable guess. The Verge article did say 60MW though.

It's funny, I just realized we (or at least I) tunnel-visioned on the 60MV mistake while completely overlooking the MUCH more serious error in the same sentence. Which in fact proves that my generous reading of 60MV being a simple typo of 60MVA is wrong, and it's definitely a complete misunderstanding of what's being reported:

Apple's newly announced California solar farm will use 85 of Tesla's 60MV battery packs to help power ‌Apple Park‌, according to the report.

The overall system appears to be a 240MWh, 4-hour, 60MVA. Which is to say that there aren't 85 of Tesla's 60-anythings in this project, typo or otherwise.

The (correct) press releases are vague about how exactly 85 factors into the other two values, but you can just do the math and divide by 85 to figure that there must be either 85 2.8MWh battery units connected to 60MVA of inverters, 85 700kVA inverter units connected to 240MWh of batteries, or (most likely) 85 700kVA inverters each with a 2.8MWh battery all connected together at the AC output. (There doesn't seem to be any public information about Megapack block sizes or design I could quickly Google up other than the outdated ~1.5MW/inverter from the original announcement, so I'll limit this to speculation.)

Bad form, MR!

 

[Makosuke]

Tell that to a Nordic customer.

Purely out of curiosity, is this a reference to the fact that W doesn't exist in non-loan words in Nordic languages? They still use the same SI unit symbols, though, don't they?

 

[Makosuke]

MSNBC even just a few weeks ago said you have to recycle 58 coke cans to get enough to make 1 replacement can.

Could you provide a link to this? There are complex economic issues in the metal recycling industry, but from a basic material throughput standard everything I could find indicated that moderate-quality aluminum recycling produces at most 10% dross, which is rather lower than the 98% fraction 58-cans-to-1 would imply, even before the companies that specialize in additional aluminum extraction from dross or other uses for it.

 

[WLSON]

Tesla makes no profits. Nobody knows for sure if their accounting in China is accurate. The profit they made last year was from selling energy credits that the government gives them on top of subsidies and tax breaks. Elon went and sold these energy credits and spent that money on trying to pump crypto pyramid schemes. Completely mad degenerate behavior.

What happened to Hyperloop? Now it’s changed to normal cars in tunnels. But what happened to that running company? Going nowhere.

The guy keeps over promising things that can’t happen. Just a perpetual cycle of hype with cheering trolls and bots making it look like genuine excitement.

Thank you for showing you have no idea what you're talking about. Whilst Musk did come up with the Hyperloop concept it was open sourced a long time ago, hence none of his companies are working on it, others like Virgin Hyperloop are. There's no such thing as energy credits, they are called regulatory credits which make up less than 5% of Tesla's revenue. The Federal EV tax credit for Tesla expired in 2019. Tesla has $20 billion in cash and cash equivalents, a $1.5 billion investment in crypto is not something I'd call degenerate behavior. I guess Tesla's Model S/X, 3/Y and SpaceX landing rockets definitely did not happen. Funny you accuse people of being trolls when you're the perfect example.

 

[jerryk]

Compared to all other makes of cars, according to Consumer Reports and JD Power:

JD Power says Lexus is most dependable auto brand, ranks Tesla 30th out of 33

Tesla, Lincoln flunk Consumer Reports' 2020 reliability survey, Mazda takes first win
Consumer Reports is no longer recommending Tesla’s Model S and is panning the reliability of the new Model Y

Which aligns more or less with what I've heard from several actual Tesla owners. It's not that they aren't nice cars, or that there aren't ones that are fine, it's just that things happen like the entire roof of a Model 3 spontaneously cracking while the car is sitting there not moving.


The results do speak for themselves: sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. Some of Musk's companies have delivered more or less as promised, some demonstrably haven't. But certainly none of them other than very early Tesla itself have delivered any more than you'd expect given the amount of money put into them.

I'm not so sure about the "very best" engineers, either. His companies certainly hire good engineers, and some of them at the highest levels are no doubt among the best, but based on several years of personal experience they aren't significantly better or worse than engineers at any other company of comparable size making similar products. That's not a knock on Tesla engineers, just that I think their reputation is unfairly inflated when there are many other companies working in the same spaces who have engineers just as good.

This has not been our experience.

Our Teslas (X and 3) have been rock solid. Much better than the BMW, Mercedes, and Fords we have owned. And maintenance for a Tesla is perhaps a set of tires every 25,000 miles, depending on how hard you accelerate and corner. Other than that nothing. No oil changes, no brake jobs, no transmission service, no exhaust, no smog certificates. Because an EV does not have any of these systems. Fueling has been easy. Charge at home and wake up with full charge. Very similar to a phone.

We lease and the lease is up on the X. We have test-driven Mercedes EVs (nice interior, terrible electronics), Ford Mustang Mach (slow, electronics not quite right, strange console) and so far they have not matched up to the Tesla X. Porsche Taycan is too sedan like for our needs and is much more expensive when you match performance.

We are still looking, but will likely lease another X. Perhaps when the lease on the new X is up in 3 years the competition will be stronger.

 

[Glenny2lappies]

All that lithium, so green...

 

[AdamNC]

Wait till your Tesla is out of warranty and say the display breaks, or a door handle breaks. Door handle for my friends was 2100 installed. His buddies Tesla display went out... 3900 bucks. Then the auto head light control went out. 1900. He sold it after that. https://www.hotcars.com/problems-with-tesla-nobody-talks-about/

 

[code-m]

It's been fascinating watching Apple invest heavily in solar over the years. I believe they lead the country with the largest installed solar capacity.

Why not Geo-Thermal or a combination with Solar and Wind for the win. Batteries age, are inefficient after X amount of cycles, need to be recycled and are made up of many rare earth metals to name a few things.

 

[code-m]

We do love our air conditioning!

Afraid to open a window or use a ceiling fan.

 

[code-m]

Germany is for the most part a lot cooler than the US. Trying living in NM/AZ/CA in the summer with out it.
Apple should have bought Telsa. Apple run by an accountant will probably be much as they are for the duration. Tesla will be in space and owning much of the physical internet and owning a lot of solar projects. Come on Apple think different.

The issue with StarLink is that it’s expensive, still requires a ground link other than the customer connection and can sustain damage by solar activity, other external and internal interference. It’s basically a low earth orbit ISDN/SAT connection.

 

[code-m]

Wait till your Tesla is out of warranty and say the display breaks, or a door handle breaks. Door handle for my friends was 2100 installed. His buddies Tesla display went out... 3900 bucks. Then the auto head light control went out. 1900. He sold it after that. https://www.hotcars.com/problems-with-tesla-nobody-talks-about/

Tesla got to make them profits somehow.