Apple Touts U.S. Job Creation with Claims of 514,000 Jobs Tied to its Products

[Michaelgtrusa]

Banks give out interest? No...not really.

Also most of Apple's cash is overseas to avoid paying taxes. That means foreign banks deal with the capital. And furthermore, let us say it went into a US bank. Sound great? Not really. Their main funders aren't savers anymore but the federal reserve due to horrible investments and propped up liquidity at a 0.1% interest rate. This isn't me complaining about the fed-I'm not sure that policy is good or bad-as much to say that $100B in the bank does nothing to help the US economy that the federal reserve couldn't make up and surpass anyway.

Perhaps you should learn about economics. Apple making obscene profits isn't a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it is good for the economy. Apple doesn't pay dividends, they don't hire people at particularly greater wages than they should (see Apple's non-poaching agreements to keep wages down)-I like their products, but their practices are really dubious. Pointing this out doesn't mean someone knows nothing about the economy.

Perhaps you should learn what Quantitative Easing and Low interest at the overnight window means...oh wait, you think banks pay interest and corporations pay taxes to the US government. Nevermind. I'm too ignorant to understand that stuff anyway.



Companies never voluntarily take a hit. The problem is US policy. Simple regulations isn't the answer either. This is the free market at work. If people cared about Apple's policies, they'd stop buying the products. That means viable competition-but there are no American factories or US laws encouraging such things to happen. The notion that Apple can't get it done and charge its current prices is absurd is the point. Why would you voluntarily raise your cost structure by a third? You're absolutely right.

it's always good to see a poster that know what he's talking about and isn't brainwashed.

 

[sammaffei]

Not hardly...

I make about $60-$70 a month from my app (an iPad VNC app ). Not enough to live on.

 

[blow45]

I imagine that number is largely made up by companies who hire iOS developers. For example, I currently work as an iOS developer (but not in the US) for an international company. We make a business product that provides real-time data to businesses via a web interface. Our iOS app is seen as a critical interface to the product - broadening the customer base (particularly in involving small businesses).

It used to be a sort of trivial product, but we're doubling our people on it because the response has been so positive.

There is a real app economy, and it is supporting people's jobs.

There is indeed a real app economy but there are also many students/hobbyists/amateurs/academics who have an apple dev account and are paying apple, to claim that all 250,000 of them are being offered a job by apple which in turn creates 250,000 jobs is just ludicrous pr bs, imho.

 

[Small White Car]

really?, you really think that Apple leaves the money offshore because they "not using it"

they help put together the loby for the "tax holiday" - with the aim to win a one-year tax amnesty on foreign earnings - at a tax rate of about 5%, instead 35%.

it is offshore because Apple does not want to pay tax on it. if they get the TH from Obama it will be back here in a heartbeat.

Sorry I wasn't clear enough, I guess.

When I wrote "there's no sense in moving it and paying taxes," I really probably should have said that they saw "no sense in moving moving it. And paying taxes."

 

[mrxak]

Banks give out interest? No...not really.

Also most of Apple's cash is overseas to avoid paying taxes. That means foreign banks deal with the capital. And furthermore, let us say it went into a US bank. Sound great? Not really. Their main funders aren't savers anymore but the federal reserve due to horrible investments and propped up liquidity at a 0.1% interest rate. This isn't me complaining about the fed-I'm not sure that policy is good or bad-as much to say that $100B in the bank does nothing to help the US economy that the federal reserve couldn't make up and surpass anyway.

Perhaps you should learn about economics. Apple making obscene profits isn't a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it is good for the economy. Apple doesn't pay dividends, they don't hire people at particularly greater wages than they should (see Apple's non-poaching agreements to keep wages down)-I like their products, but their practices are really dubious. Pointing this out doesn't mean someone knows nothing about the economy.

Perhaps you should learn what Quantitative Easing and Low interest at the overnight window means...oh wait, you think banks pay interest and corporations pay taxes to the US government. Nevermind. I'm too ignorant to understand that stuff anyway.

Low interest rates just mean it's easier than usual for people to get loans. Again, the fact that interest is given out means that the bank is making some money off of the money deposited.

The argument here is not how much good Apple's deposits do, but how bad Apple's deposits are. If you're going to argue their cash reserve is a bad thing, then you simply don't understand what that cash is doing. Even you admit they're at worst neutral, so maybe you should just give up.

The fact is, Apple has used their cash reserve quite wisely, making strategic purchases and locking down deals with suppliers to bring out some really great products. These great products have forced them to hire more workers and build new stores in order to distribute those products. Companies like UPS and FedEx have had to hire more workers to keep up with all the shipping, and there's been a gold rush by developers to get into the new platforms.

I'm not going to get into a debate over the Fed, and we probably agree about the non-poaching thing, but if you're going to make claims that Apple having money in banks is a bad thing, you just haven't thought things through.

 

[bigjohn]

PR....

First - App developers have to PAY to get into the program. When was the last time you paid for a job? Not to mention - most developers aren't really developing apps as a job. Many are - or trying. But most are hobbyists (of that 200k+ figure)

I pay for my job all the time, every time I come across something I need, a tool or training. Not all of it can be written off or expensed. It's certainly more than $99 a year (which, if you are a working dev can be written off).

Second - How come people are OK lumping in employees of Samsung, UPS, FEDEx, etc with THESE numbers - but when FoxConn is under the microscope everyone points out that those employees are NOT Apple employees but FoxConns.

Because FoxConn is a sub-contractor. Does GM or Ford include all of it's subs in it's employee totals?

Can't have it both ways. I'm not saying Apple doesn't have influence and hasn't supported jobs. But this is such blatant PR "crap" that it makes my eyes want to bleed.

Apparently they weren't bleeding enough, you still got the post written.

 

[Saladinos]

There is indeed a real app economy but there are also many students/hobbyists/amateurs/academics who have an apple dev account and are paying apple, to claim that all 250,000 of them are being offered a job by apple which in turn creates 250,000 jobs is just ludicrous pr bs, imho.

I think the consensus the the 70/30 split is pretty fair, taking in to account hosting, marketing, billing, etc.

As for the $99 fee, that's used to prevent spam (and even that's having a hard job). Look at Apple's financial figures: they don't generate any sort of significant revenue from that scheme. The $99 fee isn't there because Apple wants more money.

Not all of them will be offered jobs for sure, but there will also be lots of business accounts. Any of those students and hobbyists also have access to a market where they have an unprecedented opportunity to make money from their software.

It's not a guaranteed success, for sure. No competitive market is. But it is as big an opportunity as it always was for the best products.

 

[firewood]

I wonder what those numbers would look like if Apple's manufacturing was done in the US as well.

Potentially smaller. If the product costs go up, less will be sold, Apple would be a smaller company employing less people.

Someone said Apple could take zero profit, but this would only work for a very short period, as the investment companies handling your parents retirement savings would fire the execs who did this for trying to bankrupt your parents.

Second - How come people are OK lumping in employees of Samsung, UPS, FEDEx, etc with THESE numbers - but when FoxConn is under the microscope everyone points out that those employees are NOT Apple employees but FoxConns.

Because both facts are true. They are not Apple employees. But those people would likely be out of jobs if UPS, Foxconn and FedEx didn't hire them to handle Apple's added manufacturing and shipping volumes.

First - App developers have to PAY to get into the program. When was the last time you paid for a job?

You must not be a professional or a businessperson. Lot's of professional (doctors, dentists, lawyers, professional engineers, etc.) pay for their certifications and/or board licenses. Even sole proprietorships pay for business licenses. Etc.

$3 Billion+ paid out turns into a lot of developer income, as well as the many people those developers in turn hire. One iPhone developer I know just sent nice big checks to the artist doing their graphics, and the kid helping with QA and testing. It's all about trickle down.

 

[samcraig]

I pay for my job all the time, every time I come across something I need, a tool or training. Not all of it can be written off or expensed. It's certainly more than $99 a year (which, if you are a working dev can be written off).



Because FoxConn is a sub-contractor. Does GM or Ford include all of it's subs in it's employee totals?



Apparently they weren't bleeding enough, you still got the post written.

a) you didn't PAY to get hired, did you? What you're describing is different altogether. IF Apple is counting everyone that has paid to be a developer as an "employee" (a job they created) it's incredibly dubious. They can call them customers - not employees.

b) straw man argument

c) sarcasm noted

 

[blow45]

Apparently they weren't bleeding enough, you still got the post written.

Apparently he said that his eyes wanted to bleed. Soon our eyes will start to bleed indeed if people don't take apple to task when they post pr bs such as this. If that is your litmus test of tolerance I guess we should all wait for eye bleeding time before posting our criticism.

I think the consensus the the 70/30 split is pretty fair, taking in to account hosting, marketing, billing, etc.

As for the $99 fee, that's used to prevent spam (and even that's having a hard job). Look at Apple's financial figures: they don't generate any sort of significant revenue from that scheme. The $99 fee isn't there because Apple wants more money.

Not all of them will be offered jobs for sure, but there will also be lots of business accounts. Any of those students and hobbyists also have access to a market where they have an unprecedented opportunity to make money from their software.

It's not a guaranteed success, for sure. No competitive market is. But it is as big an opportunity as it always was for the best products.

It's an opportunity, it's not a job. Although analogies are tricky things: If I buy a few brushes and paints from a hardware store I am not being offered a job by said store, it's not creating a job for me, I am merely getting some tools.

 

[samcraig]

You must not be a professional or a businessperson. Lot's of professional (doctors, dentists, lawyers, professional engineers, etc.) pay for their certifications and/or board licenses. Even sole proprietorships pay for business licenses. Etc.

None of those institutions claim they are creating jobs. They are issuing certifications.

It's not the same at all.

 

[crofford]

Am I being counted as one of the 210K people in app development?

Because I consider myself unemployed right now and am looking for a job. iOS is a fun hobby that happens to bring in about $10/day; it's no where near enough to sustain me.

You are absolutely correct! Apple should divide the revenue evenly across all registered developers. Why should the few with good ideas reap all of the rewards.

 

[samcraig]

Apparently they weren't bleeding enough, you still got the post written.

Reading comprehension issue apparently. I clearly wrote it MAKES my eyes WANT to bleed.

You might want to pay closer attention

 

[Gasu E.]

So Apple puts $100B in the bank to help the banks loan money to individuals. How come Apple does not list these individuals as employees too then... (

Ummm... because they are NOT employees.

 

[nokuchikushi]

$100B in the bank means $100B more that banks can loan out to people starting businesses, buying houses and cars, and other things, which all means more job growth and more tax income for the government. Do you think banks give out interest because of magic? Banks are profit-making enterprises, using your money to make more money, then they give you back a cut.

Don't argue about economics if you are so ignorant of the basic elements of an economic system.

People who don't understand economics don't realize how things work. The US economy is not the only one in the world, nor the only one that matters. The world is a small place and each economy affects others. Especially China's. And ENOUGH with the Foxconn wages already. Where I live - I do not live in the US - the average daily wage is similar to those at Foxconn and we get along fine, thank you. We don't need nor want your pity. You'll find that it's a pretty common wage outside of North America and Europe.

 

[firewood]

Because I consider myself unemployed right now and am looking for a job. iOS is a fun hobby that happens to bring in about $10/day; it's no where near enough to sustain me.

$10/day is over $3k per year, which more than pays for your MacBook and developer enrollment. It's better than zero, and the experience on your resume might eventually be worth even more that your current daily revenue.

 

[Ryth]

I make about $60-$70 a month from my app (an iPad VNC app ). Not enough to live on.

Make more apps then.

You do realize most people/companies do not make their main profit off 1 item...it's usually multiple items and lots of them.

So unless you have a great idea/hit, you need to develop more apps, just like publishers and distributors do with titles.

So if you put out 10 apps at $60-70 a month profit, you are now making $600-$700 a month.

Apple doesn't pay dividends

Who ***** cares if they pay a dividend...I sure don't. I've bought the stock so many times that I'm making ridiculous profits...heck I just bought in the mid 400s and it's gone up to the mid 500s already in the last 2 months. What dividend stock is going to get you a 15-20% profit in 2 months???

You go ahead and get yourself a stock that pays a dividend...enjoy waiting for centuries for the amount of profit Apple is generating without one.

 

[nokuchikushi]

None of those institutions claim they are creating jobs. They are issuing certifications.

It's not the same at all.

Jeez, split a few hairs, why don't ya?

 

[tschull]

It would take years to come down the pipe. But Apple still has factories here, or had, and they're now idling. You want to see something horrible? Go to Binghamton NY and check out all the empty IBM factories, and the one building that has its lights on to prove IBM still creates jobs in Binghamton, despite the fact they don't make anything there.

It can be done, just there's neither will or incentive. Apple's margins are big enough such that it can be done here, but isn't. And the iphone's margins are absurd, as are their PCs. And their G5s were made in the US.

Oh, an analysis showing that they could still churn a smaller profit making the things in the US and barely charging more:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...if-it-were-made-in-the-us-about-1-140/238508/

Yay for defending ridiculous margins though.

I read your link. The authors only compared the cost of labor. Also not included are the factors I pointed out. The authors themselves point out "Changing the supply chain isn't just a geographical swap, it's a cost. " There are no existing massive factories here, or massive labor force to work in them. That is also a cost that must be amortized against the price of the product.

 

[blow45]

You are absolutely correct! Apple should divide the revenue evenly across all registered developers. Why should the few with good ideas reap all of the rewards.

A sponsored program for a select number of apps that apple believes create added value for their ingenuity for ios yet who aren't making a decent profit for their developers could certainly be a possibility what with apple's pretty large stash of cash. All the more so when the one who reapps all these added value that the developers bring to the app store by virtue of their hard work is certainly apple itself by selling more and more ios devices. Apple can hardly think that iphones and ipads are sold by virtue of selling a notepads and reminders app bundled, can they? But it's up to them what business model they use.

What is insulting is that they are very much aware that even good and valuable apps, aren't making enough money to sustain their developers (and they know this because they have all the data as well as a pretty good idea of the effort required for development) yet they don't hesitate to claim that they are offering 200,000 jobs by virtue of the money paid to them, and not the money they pay back on average to developers.

 

[jhende7]

It would take years to come down the pipe. But Apple still has factories here, or had, and they're now idling. You want to see something horrible? Go to Binghamton NY and check out all the empty IBM factories, and the one building that has its lights on to prove IBM still creates jobs in Binghamton, despite the fact they don't make anything there.

It can be done, just there's neither will or incentive. Apple's margins are big enough such that it can be done here, but isn't. And the iphone's margins are absurd, as are their PCs. And their G5s were made in the US.

Oh, an analysis showing that they could still churn a smaller profit making the things in the US and barely charging more:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business...if-it-were-made-in-the-us-about-1-140/238508/

Yay for defending ridiculous margins though.

Your post reeks of absolute and unforgivable ignorance. Your logic is definitively flawed, inaccurate and insufficient to warrant a read, never mind a response...but I must digress.

Let me ask you this. Do you think Apple would be the same revered, respected juggernaut in the industry if it had a profit margin of a piddly (5%..?) like you suggest. Do you think Apple would be building data centers, expanding it's retail presence and building fuel cell farms (in the US), if it sacrificed it's profits? Btw, all those aforementioned projects are sure to provide tons of HIGH QUALITY jobs for US citizens.

How about Apple's share price? Do you think Apple would be trading at $500+ if it threw all it's profits out the window (and by that I mean trying to start a viable manufacturing operation in North America). Apples outstanding share price is helping out lots of ordinary people (like myself) in providing solid investment income.

Do you think Apple would be hiring engineers by the thousands to make the next great iProduct if it's profit margin was so thin?

The answer is no, none of that could happen. Instead we'd throw away a bunch of high-skill high salary jobs for a bunch of blue collar garbage.

The migration of manufacturing jobs off-shore is the best thing to happen to North America. Who wants to make a living clipping plastic and metal together in a factory anymore?

 

[firewood]

It's an opportunity, it's not a job.

And a lot of jobs would disappear if it weren't for opportunities.

Almost all jobs (outside the government sector) are because some businessman took a risk that some opportunity would pay off more than the cost of hiring people to do the work.

Even a big store is only an opportunity to sell stuff. Sales at Target go up, they open more stores and hire more salespeople. Sales at Mervins go down, they declare bankruptcy and fire everybody.

 

[samcraig]

Jeez, split a few hairs, why don't ya?

That's not splitting hairs. It's being factual. "Sorry" if I'm not buying into the Apple PR machine on their loose idea of "job creation." Feel free to buy into it as much as you want.

As a PR/Marketing professional for over 20 years - I can not only read between the lines - but spot spin a mile away.

 

[nokuchikushi]

Apparently he said that his eyes wanted to bleed. Soon our eyes will start to bleed indeed if people don't take apple to task when they post pr bs such as this. If that is your litmus test of tolerance I guess we should all wait for eye bleeding time before posting our criticism.



It's an opportunity, it's not a job. Although analogies are tricky things: If I buy a few brushes and paints from a hardware store I am not being offered a job by said store, it's not creating a job for me, I am merely getting some tools.

It's an industry that didn't exist before. Apple has every right to claim it's created employment.

 

[blow45]

People who don't understand economics don't realize how things work. The US economy is not the only one in the world, nor the only one that matters. The world is a small place and each economy affects others. Especially China's. And ENOUGH with the Foxconn wages already. Where I live - I do not live in the US - the average daily wage is similar to those at Foxconn and we get along fine, thank you. We don't need nor want your pity. You'll find that it's a pretty common wage outside of North America and Europe.

With that kind of mentality it's going to be a very common wage (adjusted for inflation) in 10 years from now as well. Enjoy how good you have it then and keep spitting on people who actually give a crap instead of those who have bullied you into these conditions...