Apple Touts U.S. Job Creation with Claims of 514,000 Jobs Tied to its Products

[hans1972]

kdarling is actually very intelligent. What he, I and some others are trying to point out is that Apple's "claim"/interpretation is incredibly loose. And the fact that they are "touting" their numbers is quite the spin.

These kind of calculations are common here in Norway. Even the goverment does it all the time.

It can be a tool to illustrate how much a company or a sector contributes to the economy. People seem to think that Apple creates these jobs when they cleary say that they created _or_ support.

I am pretty sure if one did this calculation for Microsoft or Walmart, their numbers would be much higher.

Of course this is PR and it would be silly for Apple not to argue that they influence the US economy including jobs when they are under fire for using so many foreign employees.

We all want Apple, iPhone, iPad, iOS, OS X, Apple TV, Macs and everything Apple does to be hugely successful so we should be cheerful about everything that puts Apple in a good light.

 

[blow45]

Can everyone shut the f up about Apple not using Gorilla Glass Now? This pretty much confirms they do.

Lol

 

[firewood]

Maybe I'll send out a press release tonight that I am directly and indirectly responsible for 275,000 jobs because of where I live, where I work, how I shop, etc.

Given the population of your region and the number of jobs required to keep that population at its current standard of living, the economic activity of a typical person probably indirectly creates somewhere around 0.5 jobs on average. But maybe you started and grew a company?

 

[faroZ06]

MMMMMMMMMMM
Stimulus package that gives the government money

 

[Cybbe]

I am pretty sure if one did this calculation for Microsoft or Walmart, their numbers would be much higher.

Apple's way of measuring jobs created goes far beyond the ripple effects most companies would legitimate claim. What if Microsoft ever attempted to claim "they" have created millions of jobs - just because millions are employed in the Windows software development ecosystem. They would be called out as luddites.

 

[Thunderhawks]

Puh leaze. This is a desperate PR advertisement. Apple never should have posted this...makes Apple look like they are trying to hide something.

You couldn't be more wrong!

Apple realizes that there are too many numbskulls out there who can't think globally or are totally uneducated on how business works.

MADE IN AMERICA the way it is needed (which is based on consumer behavior) IS NOT POSSIBLE IN AMERICA!

This is and has been discussed in a lot of places and the info is finally getting to those American people who do not get this.(As we can see posted here time and time again)

It is actually smart that when somebody throws dirt at you trying to get anything to stick to respond with facts.

FACT: The labor force to do what Apple needs done is not available in the US
Not enough engineers or not enough bodies.

FACT: Despite manufacturing overseas, they try to keep in USA what can be kept here.

FACT: They employ and sub employ in their eco system a significant amount of people

FACT: They joined FLA

and the list goes on with environmental moves, but it will never be enough for those who can only criticize.

Just show me one other electronics company that does what Apple does.

To those who do not like Apple why not go on your merry way, use your Asian made computers from other sweat shops or FoxConn and let Apple be what they are: A brilliant company.

About the only thing that is in question is : Can they keep it going without SJ?

 

[Speedy2]

They didn't require exports in order to keep their economy going.

Also, different times, different analysis.

Not, not a different analysis. An ACTUAL analysis as opposed to your conjecture.
Please name _one_ country whose economy has collapsed because it introduced worker's rights and laws against exploitation and hazardous working conditions.

 

[AidenShaw]

Apple's way of measuring jobs created goes far beyond the ripple effects most companies would legitimate claim. What if Microsoft ever attempted to claim "they" have created millions of jobs - just because millions are employed in the Windows software development ecosystem. They would be called out as luddites.

+1

Apple is desperate here - trying to hide the fact that most jobs that Apple creates are subcontracted through Foxconn....

 

[fredfnord]

(Random app developer who makes ten bucks a month asks if he's counted.)

Yup, you are. When people talk about "Job creation" they almost never talk about how many jobs are middle/upper class and above the poverty line. Notice it says full time employees in 50 states-it doesn't talk about how many there are.

Actually, to steal a quote from you, you're mostly wrong. Oops, no, sorry... you're entirely, utterly, totally wrong.

When Apple talks about 210k people in that industry, they're not doing something ridiculously dumb like just taking the number of app developers who have apps in the app store. They are using a 2012 TechNet study of the app development sector in the US, and using TechNet's own methodology to extrapolate the percentage of people in the mobile phone/tablet development industry that are developing for iOS/the percentage of any given company that is devoted to iOS if it is a multi-OS company.

What's really funny is, you actually correct other people, while making blind, eyes-closed assumptions like this. Whereas if you had even bothered to visit the Apple page being talked about in the post, you could have scrolled down to the bottom to read EXACTLY how the number was come up with.

It's sad when you're too lazy to even do that, but at the same time you feel you have to correct other people's impressions. It says a lot about you, really.

 

[Speedy2]

Except intels product per engineer is more valuable so they and all the other employers already there can afford soak up all that and more. indeed apple themselves are pulling any talent they can find into their design teams and data Centres.

Please substantiate your claim.
Intel's ASP is about $100, Apple's is somewhere between $200 (iPod,), $600 (iPhone+iPad) and $1200 (Mac)

Intel's total revenue for 2011 is $54B, Apple's is $108B
Intel's workforce in the US is 45.000, most of which are in engineering and production
Apple's is 47.000, most of which are in sales.

So how exactly is Intel's "product" more valuable per engineer?
Apple employs fewer engineers in the US, but makes much more money off of them. And that's just US numbers. If you include the international workforce, the numbers are even more telling, since Apple hardly employs any engineers abroad and has no factories whereas Intel is a completely different story.

There are enough engineers around for Apple, and Apple could easily afford it. End of story.

 

[fredfnord]

+1

Apple is desperate here - trying to hide the fact that most jobs that Apple creates are subcontracted through Foxconn....

Wow. So let's see... you would say that if Apple hadn't come out with the iPhone, then right now, the cell phone app industry would be in exactly the same shape it's in now?

Pleeeeease.

In reality, it MIGHT be in slightly better shape than it was in in 2007. In other words, there might be twenty or thirty apps that actually worked available for Windows Mobile, instead of just five or six.

 

[Speedy2]

When Apple talks about 210k people in that industry, they're not doing something ridiculously dumb like just taking the number of app developers who have apps in the app store. They are using a 2012 TechNet study of the app development sector in the US, and using TechNet's own methodology to extrapolate the percentage of people in the mobile phone/tablet development industry that are developing for iOS/the percentage of any given company that is devoted to iOS if it is a multi-OS company.

You mean this?
http://www.technet.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/TechNet-App-Economy-Jobs-Study.pdf

This study is laughable. Did YOU read it?

They counted job ads that referred to anything App, Blackberry, Facebook API etc related in a 90-day period at the end of 2011. With that number they established a ratio of app jobs to all tech jobs (4.7%). And now they bluntly assumed that 4.7% of all tech jobs were in "apps", totally disregarding the fact that "apps" has just taken off and is nowhere near that number compared to the established workforce. They have no clue actually how many jobs in total are app related. They also didn't specify how many jobs are Apple related. Furthermore the study said nothing about how many of these jobs are app-only.

Then they made a number of assumptions. They assumed that the number of job ads times 3.5 equals the number of jobs, which could be appropriate for IT jobs, but for app jobs?. Then they doubled that number to include non-tech jobs that were supposedly created additionally, which is questionable in an environment with tons of individual developers and small app companies that can't afford marketing or sales personnel (or even a cleaning lady). They just said "careful examination" took place. Yeah whatever, I don't buy it.
Finally they multiplied that number by 1.5 to include "spillovers" (that would be the additional pizza delivery guys I guess). Just another of these wild guesses.

 

[blow45]

+1

Apple is desperate here - trying to hide the fact that most jobs that Apple creates are subcontracted through Foxconn....

Lol, loved the comment, right on the money, the most succinct thing said here today, and your sig!!!!!!!!!

 

[Mr. Retrofire]

iOS is a fun hobby that happens to bring in about $10/day; it's no where near enough to sustain me.

I heard you have some problems with Apple. You should solve them as soon as possible (brings more money).

 

[BaldiMac]

Do you have any reasons (other than Apple claiming them) that Apple SHOULD be claiming them? No.

Sure. They made a claim to refute the bad press they are getting about not creating American jobs. They were very clear about what they were including.

Now, can you actually answer the question that I asked?

You can believe what they say at face value. It's cool.

Who's being flimflammed here? It's a made up metric without the context of other companies to illustrate the positive impact that Apple has made on the US economy. Can I take that at face value? Sure. Why not? It's not like they are trying to prove anything with these number. They are using it to make a point. Does it really matter if the number was 400,000 or 514,000?

And your analogies don't hold up. It's completely different.

How are they completely different?

And the end of the day PR spin is PR spin. Can you say these things? Sure? Are they valid? Perhaps. All depends on interpretation. Which is exactly how the spin machine works.

But it's not fact.

What's not a fact? That a study funded by Apple determined that Apple has created directly or indirectly 514,000 jobs as defined by the methodology of the study? Of course that's a fact. The fact that you want the number to mean something it doesn't, doesn't make the number meaningless.

 

[blow45]

Sure. They made a claim to refute the bad press they are getting about not creating American jobs. They were very clear about what they were including.

Now, can you actually answer the question that I asked?



Who's being flimflammed here? It's a made up metric without the context of other companies to illustrate the positive impact that Apple has made on the US economy. Can I take that at face value? Sure. Why not? It's not like they are trying to prove anything with these number. They are using it to make a point. Does it really matter if the number was 400,000 or 514,000?



How are they completely different?



What's not a fact? That a study funded by Apple determined that Apple has created directly or indirectly 514,000 jobs as defined by the methodology of the study? Of course that's a fact. The fact that you want the number to mean something it doesn't, doesn't make the number meaningless.

The number is meaningful if the methodology is meaningful, if the methodology is rubbish it isn't. Critics here have been attacking the methodology which is apparently bs. When people try to "make a point" based on studies funded by themselves (conflict of interest anyone...) which are also apparently inane they only succeed at embarrassing themselves.

 

[Wondercow]

When you pay for education - the school doesn't take credit for how many jobs it's created counting all the students that have graduated. So again - it's different.

They most certainly do. Almost all universities (or the departments therein), colleges, and trade schools boast about their pre-grad placement rate, post-grad placement rate, and/or co-op/work term/practical placement rate. They especially like to showcase jobs when there's a successful new program at the school.

Some even guarantee a job within xx months or you'll get a percentage of your tuition back, help getting placed, free courses to become more valuable as an employee, etc.

 

[Wondercow]

Next time you go home with 20 dollars a day after 12-14 hours of repetitive toiling, and after doing that for months and years, you can talk.

Talk to a farmer.

farm•er |ˈfɑrmər|
noun
1 a person who is asked to feed the world yet paid less than it costs to feed his family

 

[samcraig]

They most certainly do. Almost all universities (or the departments therein), colleges, and trade schools boast about their pre-grad placement rate, post-grad placement rate, and/or co-op/work term/practical placement rate. They especially like to showcase jobs when there's a successful new program at the school.

Some even guarantee a job within xx months or you'll get a percentage of your tuition back, help getting placed, free courses to become more valuable as an employee, etc.

Claiming placement is not the same as claiming CREATING jobs. One is FILLING a job - the other is creating. But nice try.

----------

I know what everyone here is implying. I'm not defending Apple, but if you want to criticise Apple's claims, sarcasm doesn't work.

Sorry - and insulting another board member implying they aren't thinking works? Ok. Sure.

 

[Wondercow]

Apple's way of measuring jobs created goes far beyond the ripple effects most companies would legitimate claim. What if Microsoft ever attempted to claim "they" have created millions of jobs - just because millions are employed in the Windows software development ecosystem. They would be called out as luddites.

Apple's going on about 500,000 jobs in the US--how ignorant! What a PR move! How can anyone take Apple seriously! Why, you'd never see Microsoft doing that. Ever. Now, on to my next website... 14.7 Million Jobs Created Globally by Microsoft and Its Ecosystem, uh, umm, wait, uh, how 'bout this one? Microsoft Citizenship Report 2011, uh, no, um, oh here's one Cloud computing job creation.

Uh, forget MS--we need to focus on Apple's self-serving publicity stunt that MS would never do!

 

[Wondercow]

Claiming placement is not the same as claiming CREATING jobs. One is FILLING a job - the other is creating. But nice try

(Sorry, at first I equated placement just to co-op placement--even though I used it already in the way you meant it )

Yes, those placements are often counted as job creations. Schools work very closely with industry in order to provide graduates who can meet the needs of the employers. Not all, to be sure, but many. Many fields grow in available jobs because the number of graduates who can perform them increase. If there's no one to program a computer in a given community, then said community's economy is not based around computer programming. If, suddenly, there are competent programming graduates then the jobs will come.

And, truth be told, many schools are actively involved with creating co-op jobs in their communities, and beyond, so that the school can advertise said placements as a means to lure students. Some (and I dare say "most") will create exclusive co-op jobs with desirable companies as even more incentive.

 

[Mak47]

really?, you really think that Apple leaves the money offshore because they "not using it"

they help put together the loby for the "tax holiday" - with the aim to win a one-year tax amnesty on foreign earnings - at a tax rate of about 5%, instead 35%.

it is offshore because Apple does not want to pay tax on it. if they get the TH from Obama it will be back here in a heartbeat.

...And if they get the tax holiday, they can then aggressively invest that money in new infrastructure, stores, product development etc.

Anyone who owns a business for more than one day understands that businesses do not pay taxes. They write the check for taxes--and then they pass them on to their customers built in to the price of their products and services.

That doesn't mean that a CEO or other high level exec doesn't pay taxes on their own income, that's not the issue here. It's the corporate entity. Apple is doing quite well as it stands. They aren't in fact using that money for anything. It's literally just sitting there waiting to be brought home. If the current administration isn't capable of doing the simple math required to justify welcoming these billions of dollars into our economy, then the next one will. Apple knows this, as does every other large corporation that is doing the same thing.

Investors want a dividend right? Well, in order to pay one in the US, the company needs to bring the money home first. That means they'll pay an arm and a leg in taxes before a dividend can be distributed. That will equate to a massive devaluation of the company's cash holdings and the dividend would be reduced--if even still a viable option.

This issue will always be a point of contention between those who understand how real economics works, and those who think money grows on trees.

 

[blow45]

Apple's going on about 500,000 jobs in the US--how ignorant! What a PR move! How can anyone take Apple seriously! Why, you'd never see Microsoft doing that. Ever. Now, on to my next website... 14.7 Million Jobs Created Globally by Microsoft and Its Ecosystem, uh, umm, wait, uh, how 'bout this one? Microsoft Citizenship Report 2011, uh, no, um, oh here's one Cloud computing job creation.

Uh, forget MS--we need to focus on Apple's self-serving publicity stunt that MS would never do!

They used to compete with ms on the strength of their products, now they are competing on the strength of their bs, way to progress... Once it was Redmond start your photocopiers, now it's lets rush a half arsed service pack with leftovers from the previous os so we can be head to head with them in the hype machine (while we also pre-release it for the first time to known arch apple fanboys so we pre-empt the backlash of that's not much of a new os and there's not much there to preview in a keynote)...another welcome progress...

 

[Wondercow]

They used to compete with ms on the strength of their products, now they are competing on the strength of their bs, way to progress... Once it was Redmond start your photocopiers, now it's lets rush a half arsed service pack with leftovers from the previous os so we can be head to head with them in the hype machine (while we also pre-release it for the first time to known arch apple fanboys so we pre-empt the backlash of that's not much of a new os and there's not much there to preview in a keynote)...another welcome progress...

Please--feel free to be coherent in these discussions; in fact, we encourage it.

 

[blow45]

Please--feel free to be coherent in these discussions; in fact, we encourage it.

Sarcasm doesn't make up for the lack of reading comprehension.