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It has nothing to do with benchmark, but with real world usage.

You are free to pick any object set of functions to serve as your benchmark. There are many that are published ones based on real world workloads, or suggest one of your own. My question does not mention synthetic benchmarks (like Geekbench or Cinebench), just the abstract concept of benchmark.

Would you pick a GoKart over a Porsche 911 Turbo despite performing similar around a track? Nope, because the real world usage of Porsche 911 Turbo is much greater than a GoKart.

It would depend for what I wanted to use them. If my goal was driving around a track and the GoKart was as fast as the 911 but 1/100th of the price, I might very well pick it. On the other hand, if my goal was a car to take my family around town, I might pick neither.

That is the whole point of define these metrics up front, as it makes sure the goals posts cannot be moved. Specify what software should be used and how you would measure its performance.

I'll take a 5nm AMD chip over a 5nm Apple silicon chip anyday for this reason.

Again, you are confident that AMD will out perform Apple for some use case, define that case and what your metrics are for comparison and it will be easy for everyone to objectively decide what the result is.
 
Again, you are confident that AMD will out perform Apple for some use case, define that case and what your metrics are for comparison and it will be easy for everyone to objectively decide what the result is.
Yeah I’m real curious what this mystery software is. Let’s see in 6 months how it runs under Rosetta, or how it runs natively if native is available.
 
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You are free to pick any object set of functions to serve as your benchmark. There are many that are published ones based on real world workloads, or suggest one of your own.



It would depend for what I wanted to use them. If my goal was driving around a track and the GoKart was as fast as the 911 but 1/100th of the price, I might very well pick it. On the other hand, if my goal was a car to take my family around town, I might pick neither.

That is the whole point of define these metrics up front, as it makes sure the goals posts cannot be moved.



Again, you are confident that AMD will out perform Apple for some use case, define that case and what your metrics are for comparison and it will be easy for everyone to objectively decide what the result is.

The price is irrelevant because Apple will not make the Mac cheaper, they will just increase the profit margin when they switch to ARM :p

And as already mentioned, it is about real world usage. Computers are just a tool for me and it should not limit me in what I can and cannot do. I don't use computers to run Cinebench or Geekbench all day.

Sadly, Apple is already limiting my software selection due to dropping 32-bit support. I have to turn to Windows for those applications because of it. And with the move to ARM, it is going to be even more fun.

According to metrics, an iPad Pro is better than a MacBook Air. But as you can imagine, the numbers don't tell the whole story.
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Yeah I’m real curious what this mystery software is. Let’s see in 6 months how it runs under Rosetta, or how it runs natively if native is available.

They are plugins for Logic X. No problem in Windows because it supports both 32-bit and 64-bit like any normal OS would.
 
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Yeah. Adobe costs are kind of annoying when you only casually need their products. When you regularly do, they're not that big a deal.

But regardless, my point was that I don't think Apple or Adobe are particularly interested in the thoughts of someone who makes high demands then openly acknowledges they wouldn't want to spend that amount of money anyway.

Yes, absolutely. The problem is in trying to use professional products for a hobby. Or, sometimes in trying to learn them to prepare for a career, but typically they have low/no-cost ways of doing so.

The great thing, is that there are hobby options available these days, like Blender (which was mentioned). There are also some excellent low/no-cost alternatives to the Adobe Suite, too. For a hobbyist, they should be fine, and probably even better (IMO, a lot of industry standard software kinda sucks... you just have to run it if you're playing that game.)

Sorry to tell you, but you would have to learn a new way of doing things either way. On one hand you would have to learn Windows and change all your other software, on the other you replace Rhino.

Yeah.

It really depends on the overall workflow, I guess. If you're a person who fires up XYZ pro app in the morning and just works in it all day, then it would be much harder (if even possible) to replace that app. And, using the same app on Windows that you did on the Mac wouldn't be much harder at all.

But, if you have a more complex workflow with several apps and a lot of interaction with the OS and OS features, then finding new apps might be less leaning than disrupting the workflow.

You are funny. There is no problem for which your Linux hammer does not look like a nail. He complains about a potential lack of commercial software, and your solution is move to a platform that has less of it. Good idea!

That's the way I read it too, and you beat me to it. If all that special software were available on Linux, I might have moved years ago as well. Aside from the overhead in learning and managing Linux, the SOFTWARE isn't there either! It's like the worst of both worlds, unless your particular workflow is a fit.
 
Your reading comprehension is so poor of both my post and the post I was replying to, I find your response to me laughably non sequitur.

Well, you're the one who responds to "I'm worried there will be less Mac software" to "hey, how about you move to a platform with even less software". 🤷‍♂️
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The price is irrelevant because Apple will not make the Mac cheaper, they will just increase the profit margin when they switch to ARM :p

I wouldn't be surprised if they bring back the 16-inch MacBook Pro without dGPU, at $1999. They got rid of that in part because Intel's H-series GPUs got too weak with the discontinuation of Iris Pro.
 
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The price is irrelevant because Apple will not make the Mac cheaper, they will just increase the profit margin when they switch to ARM :p

You keep making claims but cannot provide any way of making claims that are objectively verifiable (on margin, Apple’s margins have remained remarkably consistent for many years, all public and easily verifiable).

And as already mentioned, it is about real world usage. Computers are just a tool for me and it should not limit me in what I can and cannot do. I don't use computers to run Cinebench or Geekbench all day.

Once again, you say it is about real world usage, and despite my specifically saying I am looking for a real worl usage test, you go back to Cinebench.

Let me try this one more time. Define some example of real world usage that can be measured and compared.

You use Logic Pro X? Define a set of tests that measures Logic’s performance as you would use it. I am happy to arrange whatever configuration is needed to make these tests work.

This should not be that hard to do. There has to be some way that you can determine how your actual work flow works.

Sadly, Apple is already limiting my software selection due to dropping 32-bit support.

As someone else asked, I would be curious what specific applications you are describing (a list would be super valuable, especially if they are from the Audio/Video production world as that is one of the areas in which I work and I would like to be able to contact manufacturers to asses their plans to proactively get information for those I help). When were these apps last updated (on either platform - macOS or Windows)? You are right, Apple is limiting software that has basically been abandoned (not updated for several years).

I have to turn to Windows for those applications because of it. And with the move to ARM, it is going to be even more fun.

One more reason it will be useful to have a set of metrics for your real work load. Apple has said that even Logic Pro X plug-ins will be able to run under Rosetta. How well they will perform will be an important measure as to how useful these new machines are in your use case (and those of others like you). However, without some objective measure we just get: ”It feels faster” or “It feels slower” with no way to judge.

According to metrics, an iPad Pro is better than a MacBook Air. But as you can imagine, the numbers don't tell the whole story.

No. According to some metrics the iPad Pro is faster for some tasks in some cases. Synthenic benchmarks (like Geekbench and Cinebench) are good first order comparisons, but more task related benchmarks are needed to make real comparisons for actual use.

They are plugins for Logic X. No problem in Windows because it supports both 32-bit and 64-bit like any normal OS would.

Just out of curiousity, how are you running Logic Pro X plug-ins on Windows given that the app does not run there? Again, a list of these would be very valuable. Thanks!
 
That's the way I read it too, and you beat me to it. If all that special software were available on Linux, I might have moved years ago as well. Aside from the overhead in learning and managing Linux, the SOFTWARE isn't there either! It's like the worst of both worlds, unless your particular workflow is a fit.

Years ago, you probably had an argument. Years ago, I made the same argument. When's the last time you investigated Linux? The fact you think there's some momentous overhead in learning or managing Linux tells me it wasn't recently.

Well, you're the one who responds to "I'm worried there will be less Mac software" to "hey, how about you move to a platform with even less software". 🤷‍♂️

The person I responded to was saying he had to learn new software no matter what. I don't know what tools he currently uses, any more than you do. There's every reason to believe he will find adequate tools on Linux, and I suggested he investigate and make that determination for himself. I was encouraging the person to make an informed choice after they expressed a problem different from what you've articulated. Why is making informed decisions a bad thing?

I find it greatly amusing that Mac users today feel far more threatened by people switching to Linux than they ever were by people switching to Windows. Nobody bats an eye at the constant posting of frustrated Mac users announcing they've had it with Apple and they're going to Windows anymore, but if somebody even mentions Linux people come out of the woodwork to tell them they're wrong, all using the same tired old arguments I used to hear in the freaking 90s (back when those arguments had validity). Is the non-Windows marketshare a zero sum game in your mind? Maybe it is, but from my perspective Linux has the best shot at breaking the Windows monopoly. As it gains marketshare, it encourages more developers (who are already inclined to like Linux) to develop using cross-platform technologies which can only benefit Apple (to the extent that they embrace those technologies instead of their recent trend of pushing their own proprietary stuff).
 
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Years ago, you probably had an argument. Years ago, I made the same argument. When's the last time you investigated Linux? The fact you think there's some momentous overhead in learning or managing Linux tells me it wasn't recently.



The person I responded to was saying he had to learn new software no matter what. I don't know what tools he currently uses, any more than you do. There's every reason to believe he will find adequate tools on Linux, and I suggested he investigate and make that determination for himself. I was encouraging the person to make an informed choice after they expressed a problem different from what you've articulated. Why is making informed decisions a bad thing?

I find it greatly amusing that Mac users today feel far more threatened by people switching to Linux than they ever were by people switching to Windows. Nobody bats an eye at the constant posting of frustrated Mac users announcing they've had it with Apple and they're going to Windows anymore, but if somebody even mentions Linux people come out of the woodwork to tell them they're wrong, all using the same tired old arguments I used to hear in the freaking 90s (back when those arguments had validity). Is the non-Windows marketshare a zero sum game in your mind? Maybe it is, but from my perspective Linux has the best shot at breaking the Windows monopoly. As it gains marketshare, it encourages more developers (who are already inclined to like Linux) to develop using cross-platform technologies which can only benefit Apple (to the extent that they embrace those technologies instead of their recent trend of pushing their own proprietary stuff).

You are misreading @chucker23n1's point. Repeatedly people on here: "this change to arm will mean software app X will not work for me on mac at some future date. I would have to learn a new tool. So I am switching to [windows | linux | VMS | OS/360 | MS-DOS 3.1]."


The point being that "i will switch to a different OS and learn *everything* new" is not a rational response to "i will have to learn ONE new tool if I stay."
 
According to metrics, an iPad Pro is better than a MacBook Air. But as you can imagine, the numbers don't tell the whole story.

No. According to metrics, an iPad Pro is *faster* than a MacBook Air. Not better. Which one is better will be subjected to your specific use-case. If what you need is not speed benchmarks are obviously not the place to look at.


No problem in Windows because it supports both 32-bit and 64-bit like any normal OS would.

The vast majority of new computers were already 64-bits more than a decade ago. The first 64-bit Mac was released in 2003. That was 17 years ago. Microsoft's reticence to abandon 32-bit apps and OS has only held the industry back.
 
Years ago, you probably had an argument. Years ago, I made the same argument. When's the last time you investigated Linux? The fact you think there's some momentous overhead in learning or managing Linux tells me it wasn't recently.

Oh, I won't debate that it has gotten orders of magnitude better since I did a fair bit of work with it (both professionally and personally). As I think I mentioned earlier, while I've never considered myself a Linux expert, I did manage a rack of machines for a near Fortune-50 for almost a decade, and had a MythTV box at home.

It was really not easy back then, while yes, an amateur could install and get running such a system today. However, once you have to do something besides something very basic, it quickly gets quite ugly.

And, as a matter of fact, I installed Ubuntu just a few weeks ago on Parallels in an attempt to see if I could get my eGPU folding with Folding@home. I probably spent about 4 hours mucking with it before I gave up.

I was quite impressed how easy it was to get setup, and there were quite a few basic tools there ready to roll. But, once you try to do anything outside that, you're having to understand package managers and command lines.

It's kind of like Windows, but Windows has hidden the mess even better these days. You can now do quite a bit on Windows without realizing what is going on 'under the hood' but once you hit that point, it is still kind of a mess.

That mess is also there on macOS, but it is really well hidden, such that all but the most technical of users will likely never encounter it. As far as things have come, Linux gets into the technical-requirements way more quickly, and at a point that almost anyone beyond surfing and word-processing will quickly encounter.

The person I responded to was saying he had to learn new software no matter what. I don't know what tools he currently uses, any more than you do. There's every reason to believe he will find adequate tools on Linux, and I suggested he investigate and make that determination for himself. I was encouraging the person to make an informed choice after they expressed a problem different from what you've articulated. Why is making informed decisions a bad thing?

I find it greatly amusing that Mac users today feel far more threatened by people switching to Linux than they ever were by people switching to Windows. Nobody bats an eye at the constant posting of frustrated Mac users announcing they've had it with Apple and they're going to Windows anymore, but if somebody even mentions Linux people come out of the woodwork to tell them they're wrong, all using the same tired old arguments I used to hear in the freaking 90s (back when those arguments had validity). Is the non-Windows marketshare a zero sum game in your mind? Maybe it is, but from my perspective Linux has the best shot at breaking the Windows monopoly. As it gains marketshare, it encourages more developers (who are already inclined to like Linux) to develop using cross-platform technologies which can only benefit Apple (to the extent that they embrace those technologies instead of their recent trend of pushing their own proprietary stuff).

I think what I bolded is the point I'd question. I suppose it is possible some company makes a tool with similar functionality. But, you're way more limited in choice, especially in terms of commercial products. Years ago, I attempted to use tools like GIMP instead of Photoshop, until apps like Pixelmator came along. It was not an a good experience. I feel the same way every time I try to use Linux.

As much as I'd like to go there, it's a similar reaction to when I use Windows, just more magnified.

There's no threat to people going from Mac to Linux (or even Windows) to me. I just want them to be informed on what they might be facing.

I’m not getting the logic. MacBook will likely get a more capable processor one day. And that is a problem exactly why?

I think the problem is more the OS. People who feel the OS is degrading (and I somewhat include myself in that category) eventually won't care (if the trend continues) how fast the hardware is. Apple needs both.

That said... as I was just explaining above... where else would they go? I suppose if Windows and Linux keep improving and Apple keeps degrading, eventually the lines will cross. But, the reality is (despite how much some of us complain) the gap is still pretty big.

Before Apple made some of the hardware moves over the last few years, I was almost at that jumping point myself. Had Apple not addressed some of the issues, I might have made the move (as I'm technically capable, as much as I'd not have enjoyed aspects of it). Outside of those years (mid-2010s) I mostly criticize Apple in hopes of some course-change and fixes.
 
My question for the two of you - Do you you think Apple has made any materially bad mistakes in the past decade, or do you see none of that?

I cannot believe that I left my biggest rant off. Apple has done a great job with iWork, but has missed two major opportunities. Keynote is fine on iOS, iPadOS and macOS, but could be better on the web. Pages is acceptable, but could add some more functionality. Numbers really needs help. All three need to improve their collaboration tools and really step up their web implementations. Why should Apple cede that whole space to Google? They already offer a free Google Docs/GSuite/whatever-they-call-it today competitor and would be well served both by improving it so that it was much better and making it (and promoting it) as the privacy protecting alternative to Google’s products. Go a bit further and push it and a better web-based iCloud email to compete with Gmail and really make a push into the education market.

It would be pretty amazing.
 
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I cannot believe that I left my biggest rant off. Apple has done a great job with iWork, but has missed two major opportunities. Keynote is fine on iOS, iPadOS and macOS, but could be better on the web. Pages is acceptable, but could add some more functionality. Numbers really needs help. All three need to improve their collaboration tools and really step up their web implementations. Why should Apple cede that whole space to Google? They already offer a free Google Docs/GSuite/whatever-they-call-it today competitor and would be well served both by improving it so that it was much better and making it (and promoting it) as the privacy protecting alternative to Google’s products. Go a bit further and push it and a better web-based iCloud email to compete with Gmail and really make a push into the education market.

It would be pretty amazing.

A lot of their apps seem to end up like that, or even worse. And, worse, I don't remember that being as much the case in earlier days.

I suppose the most charitable read is that they are leaving plenty of room for 3rd party apps in the market. But, I often think they just start them just to say they have something, and then leave them. They just seem to be bullet-points for the the feature-list, packaging, ads.

I'm hoping this was more an unintended consequence of their rapid growth and success, and that they will start fixing this stuff like they eventually fixed up the Mac line, etc.
 
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The choice of processors in 2021 could present a challenge for consumers making purchase decisions.

On the other hand consumers are always confused by intel chip names anyway as their last computer already had “the same” i5 than the new ones. No loss or gain here most likely.
 
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Well, this is my last Mac. It's been a long time coming, but this is the final straw for me.
What specifically makes this machine a problem for you? If you have windows-only apps, what are they (trying to compile a list)? You say it has been a long time coming, what are the issues you have had that have brought you to this point?
 
What specifically makes this machine a problem for you? If you have windows-only apps, what are they (trying to compile a list)? You say it has been a long time coming, what are the issues you have had that have brought you to this point?
Timmy is too arrogant with all his SJW’ing and Apple not selling a mid tower mac is a literal slap in the face, plus all apple ever does is make new emojis and macOS 11 looks like a toy and they should put iMessages on android and support nvidia graphics cards in iphones.
 
Timmy is too arrogant with all his SJW’ing and Apple not selling a mid tower mac is a literal slap in the face, plus all apple ever does is make new emojis and macOS 11 looks like a toy and they should put iMessages on android and support nvidia graphics cards in iphones.

And drop the Touch Bar and put an Escape key on the iPad magic keyboard. And something about a headphone jack. :)
 
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Timmy is too arrogant with all his SJW’ing and Apple not selling a mid tower mac is a literal slap in the face, plus all apple ever does is make new emojis and macOS 11 looks like a toy and they should put iMessages on android and support nvidia graphics cards in iphones.
Ah. I have been super frustrated that there is no nVidia 2080TI option for my Apple Watch, do a Dvorak keyboard for my iPad.
 
The person I responded to was saying he had to learn new software no matter what. I don't know what tools he currently uses, any more than you do. There's every reason to believe he will find adequate tools on Linux, and I suggested he investigate and make that determination for himself. I was encouraging the person to make an informed choice after they expressed a problem different from what you've articulated. Why is making informed decisions a bad thing?

It isn't. And that isn't even remotely my point.

"Hey, have you considered switching OSes altogether" is not a great response to "I hate that I have to switch some of my software".

I find it greatly amusing that Mac users today feel far more threatened by people switching to Linux than they ever were by people switching to Windows.

LOL.

I've been regularly using all three macOS, Windows, and Linux, for a quarter century. You're barking up the wrong tree.
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Timmy is too arrogant with all his SJW’ing and Apple not selling a mid tower mac is a literal slap in the face, plus all apple ever does is make new emojis and macOS 11 looks like a toy and they should put iMessages on android and support nvidia graphics cards in iphones.

aRm MaCs WOulD nEVer HaVE HaPPenEd unDer steVE jOBs
 
Could be just down to size.
iphone 3 sizes 1 port
ipad 3 sizes 2 ports
ibook 3 sizes 4 ports
imac 3 sizes 8 ports
choice to use touch or buy mouse n keyboard
that would simplify a lot of stuff.
 
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