Apple Updates Boot Camp Drivers to Fix Major Issue Causing Blown Speakers on New MacBook Pros [Updated]

[oplix]

QA down the drain at Apple the last few years

 

[Exhale]

You're all mocking Apple, but its Realtek who makes the Windows drivers - and only in Windows could a faulty driver cause your speakers to receive speaker blowing spikes

Haha, no. Get yourself an external DAC with a high-impedance headphone port - and connect a pair of Apple Earpods to that port. Now turn the volume to max.

Blown speakers in less than a second.

Failure to dimension the built in amplifier is purely a fault of Apple. It is impossible to know in software what limits the speakers can handle. It is correct for the OS to assume that it can use the entire standard range; because it is up to the physical hardware to not output unsafe ranges. Its plain bad engineering.

Furthermore, its just plain bad engineering that this hasn't been limited in the actual audio controller firmware - since that is the part that actually takes a requested volume value received from the OS, and maps it to a corresponding output power.

You can of course in the drivers adjust that when the OS requests 80%, the actual value that gets sent isn't 80%, but perhaps 60%. But that's just a Band-Aid to a problem that should never have existed.

 

[dannys1]

I'm sorry, what do you mean?
What is impossible?



I'm sorry, what?

Are you implying that (in the absence of DRM devices that would limit the system's functionality) it would be a problem to write a program that sends to the DAC arbitrary data, namely exactly the same one that the Windows driver outputs and that causes the speakers to crack?

Are you implying it would be a problem to do so in the form of a kernel extension?

Either one would be quite an extraordinary claim, and I would like to see some evidence for it.
The latter, while not impossible, would imply a most unusual architecture in Darwin.

Either way, I find the sarcastic tone inappropriate (no, I am not going through the pain of writing a kernel extension to prove the obvious; yes, you can keep waiting).

Would that sarcastic tone be along the lines of "something something electronics 101"?

Again, just playing these sounds in macOS isn't going to blow the speakers, as the amplitude will be controlled properly. So you're going to need to somehow build a kext file that'd let you push the amp too far again for it to happen - and of course you're going to have to apply for permission to get it signed to run in macOS (as Apple don't let developers sign kext files automatically anymore) safe to say this is near on impossible to recreate in macOS.

 

[Johns12]

Apple's Logic program running on Mac Pros used to produce random blasts of white noise; really bad as it could blow some very expensive studio monitors and headphones not to mention permanent hearing loss. I think Apple may have fixed it in later versions but not sure.

Yes they did finally fix this problem. It was pretty bad. They requested files and logs from my computer to help track down the problem.

 

[cmaier]

Sorry, in my native language we do use the verb "to dimension" to mean... what I mean with respect to components.
I thought it was used in English too, at least judging from the literature I can find with Google: http://google.com/search?q=dimensioning+amplifier
For example the first result: https://www.pes.ee.ethz.ch/uploads/tx_ethpublications/ertl_PCIM05.pdf

What is the correct English, please?


EDIT:

Hide, quick, before the mathematicians find you

Of course dimension is used in math

When talking about parameterizing components i would probably say "size" in this case. "Dimension" just sounds odd to me, and I've never heard it used in this context.

 

[villicodelirant]

Would that sarcastic tone be along the lines of "something something electronics 101"?

Again, just playing these sounds in macOS isn't going to blow the speakers, as the amplitude will be controlled properly. So you're going to need to somehow build a kext file that'd let you push the amp too far again for it to happen - and of course you're going to have to apply for permission to get it signed to run in macOS (as Apple don't let developers sign kext files automatically anymore) safe to say this is near on impossible to recreate in macOS.

Note that I said "in the absence of DRM".
Of course the macOS kernel extension ships with a built-in limiter as a workaround, we've been saying that for 3 pages now, but the actual hardware is faulty.

Of course dimension is used in math

When talking about parameterizing components i would probably say "size" in this case. "Dimension" just sounds odd to me, and I've never heard it used in this context.

Oh, thanks

 

[Crosscreek]

I dont know if you've ever used Bootcamp to use windows, But many of the drivers that Apple hardware requires comes from Apple, Not through windows/direct from hardware manufacturer.

in the case of the audio drivers, these are part of the bootcamp driver package. That means while these drivers may have been written by someone other than Apple, Apple is the only one who distributes them and signs off on their use.

so this is a case of Apple providing us drivers that were not properly tested in windows. And if it's a software issue, it could very well happen in macOS too. The difference is, Apple clearly spent more time testing and working on their own MacOS drivers, and just bundled and shipped bad drivers for bootcamp

This is entirely on Apple and has nothing to do with Windows.

Are you sure that is true because Apple makes there own drivers including the AMD gpu drivers that are causing problems right now.
They modify drivers to work in their machines so it sounds like a Validation and QC problem to me.

 

[dannys1]

Note that I said "in the absence of DRM".
Of course the macOS kernel extension ships with a built-in limiter as a workaround, we've been saying that for 3 pages now, but the actual hardware is faulty.





Oh, thanks

Then we are in agreement.

However, one point with this - if you're a hifi buff, you don't buy an amp that is only capable of driving speakers at full volume when it too is at full volume. You usually buy an amp that maxes the speakers out at roughly 50%. Running the amp at it's max power is going to degrade sound and most importantly dynamic range (and probably introduce distortion) this is very likely the reason the amp more powerful than the speakers - to improve sound quality by running it well within it's maximum power range. Of course that isn't a problem until a faulty driver can let out glitches and pops at 100%.

 

[Paul A Jackson]

Worse is blown ear drums if someone had headphones on.

Indeed - the most important point made on this thread IMO.

The advice given by some earlier in this thread to plug in headphones / earphones before installing update software lacked the important warning NOT to put the headphones on / earphones in, just in case they might blow, leading possibly to burst ear drums, and/or temporary or permanent hearing loss or impairment.

I am appalled at the hardware design here. It really ought NOT to be possible for any software to blow speakers, nor to destroy ANY internal hardware for that matter. Audio output level limiting technologies have been around for decades now. (E.g. Sony Audio Volume Limiting System on cassette-based Walkmans - once the personal audio product of choice for the discerning.)

External hardware is harder to protect, because Apple cannot be sure of its characteristics, but I have never heard or read of ANY third party branded headphones or earphones blowing when used correctly with any PC, laptop, tablet, mobile phone etc.
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Just connect a cable from your headphone jack to the aux input of your stereo, problem solved.

And hope that the same level problem doesn't exist on the headphone output, otherwise you could blow your stereo, too!
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Just connect a cable from your headphone jack to the aux input of your stereo, problem solved.

Better turn the stereo volume right down first, though, unless you want to blow more speakers / cause more problems!
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Outsourced directly to end users.
Pros:
-saving money (don't have to pay for their tests, the pay for testing)
-real life scenarios instead of artificial environments in labs
-larger number of units tested
-plenty of time to fix things rushed out badly
-shiny marketing image (they even fix issues limited to a small number of customers and release them for all the great Apple family members)

Cons:
- costing money in replacements, repairs, product recalls, lawsuits, liabilities, medical bills, damages
- real life scenarios like temporary or permanent hearing impairment or loss (lawsuits, liabilities, medical bills, damages)
- larger number of dissatisfied customers
- plenty of time for people to write nasty things about their Apple experiences and to consider alternatives
- shi** marketing image - Apple blows your mind (and your speakers, hearing, etc)

 

[villicodelirant]

However, one point with this - if you're a hifi buff, you don't buy an amp that is only capable of driving speakers at full volume when it too is at full volume. You usually buy an amp that maxes the speakers out at roughly 50%. Running the amp at it's max power is going to degrade sound and most importantly dynamic range (and probably introduce distortion)

Absolutely true, you keep your volume knob no further than 3/4 to have linear-ish response.
But hardly applicable to a pair of minuscule plastic speakers inside a laptop, ain't it?
They're hardly hi-fi audio.

this is very likely the reason the amp more powerful than the speakers - to improve sound quality by running it well within it's maximum power range. Of course that isn't a problem until a faulty driver can let out glitches and pops at 100%.

Sorry, but I don't find the bit about the driver being faulty being convincing.

Drivers can never be the culprit of an hardware failure, except perhaps if you write a stress program that moves the hard disk head incessantly, which can diminish its expected lifetime.

if the speakers blow it's a sign that the software can and will send to the DAC a signal that will blow the speakers.

I don't know how to call that if not defective hardware, no matter how many software workarounds you put in place.

If you don't want me to call it defective you'll have to admit that, at the very least, it's very, very unorthodox design (as in: no other piece of hardware is designed like that).
It also would more or less amount to admitting that the hardware is made to work correctly (without killing itself) only with macOS and a few select other drivers.

Not a good thing in 2016, at a time when you at least expect to be able to run a Linux live CD without putting your laptop speakers at risk.

 

[dannys1]

Absolutely true, you keep your volume knob no further than 3/4 to have linear-ish response.
But hardly applicable to a pair of minuscule plastic speakers inside a laptop, ain't it?
They're hardly hi-fi audio.



Sorry, but I don't find the bit about the driver being faulty being convincing.

Drivers can never be the culprit of an hardware failure, except perhaps if you write a stress program that moves the hard disk head incessantly, which can diminish its expected lifetime.

if the speakers blow it's a sign that the software can and will send to the DAC a signal that will blow the speakers.

I don't know how to call that if not defective hardware, no matter how many software workarounds you put in place.

If you don't want me to call it defective you'll have to admit that, at the very least, it's very, very unorthodox design (as in: no other piece of hardware is designed like that).
It also would more or less amount to admitting that the hardware is made to work correctly (without killing itself) only with macOS and a few select other drivers.

Not a good thing in 2016, at a time when you at least expect to be able to run a Linux live CD without putting your laptop speakers at risk.

No I'd still disagree with that. If the driver is sending glitches to the amp at 100% volume that should never be sent at (say) more than 50% - thats how the firmware/software has caused the issue. The issue here is that you'd need a driver to send any sound to the speakers, so a linux live CD won't cause an issue - this driver did because it was enabling the system to send audio as normal, but then was the eqiv of having a kid turning that volume knob up to 100% when he shouldn't.

I don't know if you've heard them, but for a laptop the speakers do sound fantastic and there's no doubt in my mind they've achieved that 50% more dynamic range by having an overpowered amp running well below peak performance. They've very very impressive - and my original job was an audio engineer!

 

[Exhale]

If the driver is sending glitches to the amp at 100% volume that should never be sent at (say) more than 50% - thats how the firmware/software has caused the issue.

Except that there is no indication that the driver is sending faulty information. The driver works perfectly. The problem is that the AMP is over-dimensioned for the speakers, and the hardware is not properly configured to limit the power output range to match that which the speakers can handle.

Result is correct driver behaviour, incorrect hardware behaviour. OSX gets around it by implementing the limit in software; but that's something that's 100% on Apple to do. Its impossible for the audio chip manufacturer to know how much any attached speakers can handle, they're not custom made for Apple's laptops. That's why have a spec sheet that defines the operating range.

These types of software fixes for hardware issues aren't uncommon; but they're still a workaround for bad design.

 

[AzN1337c0d3r]

Why does everyone think that the audio chipset is Realtek? According to Windows Device Manager the device is a Cirrus Logic 8409 (AB 57)

Apple's fixed driver for this makes the speaker volume so low that you can't hear anything unless you are in a whisper-only area.

 

[dannys1]

Why does everyone think that the audio chipset is Realtek? According to Windows Device Manager the device is a Cirrus Logic 8409 (AB 57)

Apple's fixed driver for this makes the speaker volume so low that you can't hear anything unless you are in a whisper-only area.

Circus Logic is the DAC maker - Realtek make the Windows audio drivers that communicate with it.
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Except that there is no indication that the driver is sending faulty information. The driver works perfectly. The problem is that the AMP is over-dimensioned for the speakers, and the hardware is not properly configured to limit the power output range to match that which the speakers can handle.

Result is correct driver behaviour, incorrect hardware behaviour. OSX gets around it by implementing the limit in software; but that's something that's 100% on Apple to do. Its impossible for the audio chip manufacturer to know how much any attached speakers can handle, they're not custom made for Apple's laptops. That's why have a spec sheet that defines the operating range.

These types of software fixes for hardware issues aren't uncommon; but they're still a workaround for bad design.

No, there is indication the driver is sending faulting information - it's not the playing of loud audio that has blown speakers, it was pops, glitches distortion coming out the speakers whilst playing nothing in Windows.

Also as pointed out above - the amp being more powerful than the speakers is likely a design decision on purpose - not bad engineering. Every high quality amp-speaker combo ever made has an amp more powerful than the speakers because an amp running at full power would sound poor. So limiting the actual output is not a workaround by bad design - its intentional.

 

[villicodelirant]

No I'd still disagree with that. If the driver is sending glitches to the amp at 100% volume that should never be sent at (say) more than 50% - thats how the firmware/software has caused the issue

Wait, what?

Ordinarily the amplifier is supposed not to blow up the speakers with any signal received.

In fact, ideally, digital audio should peak at 0dB (i.e. 100%) or slightly less, so I take the volume control acts on the amplifier gain, not on the digital signals.

But wait.

Are we saying that the audio chipset in the 2016 MBP should - uniquely, among all laptops ever! - never receive some kind of waveform to avoid breaking speakers?

That's perfectly reasonable, if this is stated on the developer documentation; except that it makes for a terrible system that requires extra care.

It's terrible in that literally all other laptops have no way of breaking their speakers with any waveform.

No, there is indication the driver is sending faulting information - it's not the playing of loud audio that has blown speakers, it was pops, glitches distortion coming out the speakers whilst playing nothing in Windows.

The audio pops are a driver issue.
Any kind of signal, including pops (which might be very well present in a defective audio file) destroying speakers is a hardware issue.

Also as pointed out above - the amp being more powerful than the speakers is likely a design decision on purpose - not bad engineering

That would make sense if there was some sort of hardware mechanism limiting the amplifier gain.
However, it seems to be purely software, which does not sound like a good thing to me (why? because it has already broken speakers!).

Moreover, I'd call that having your priorities wrong.

 

[aevan]

So, all criticism aside (Apple sure deserves it) - what I'd like to know is: does Bootcamp work now? Any danger of blowing out speakers?

To be honest, I'm still reluctant to try it, even with this update. Even more than that, I'm scared of running speakers at max volume in macOS as well! Not to mention running software like Boom 2 (even though it's a MAS app).

So, anyone else scared they might blow out their speakers - even in macOS? And scared to try Bootcamp even with this update?

 

[cmaier]

So, all criticism aside (Apple sure deserves it) - what I'd like to know is: does Bootcamp work now? Any danger of blowing out speakers?

To be honest, I'm still reluctant to try it, even with this update. Even more than that, I'm scared of running speakers at max volume in macOS as well! Not to mention running software like Boom 2 (even though it's a MAS app).

So, anyone else scared they might blow out their speakers - even in macOS? And scared to try Bootcamp even with this update?

I certainly have no fear at all in macOS. Heck, even if the speakers blow out, I am sure apple will fix the machine for free.

 

[MarkusL]

Circus Logic is the DAC maker - Realtek make the Windows audio drivers that communicate with it.

My company was considering DACs from Circus Logic but after meeting with their sales VP we decided to spend the extra 10 cents per unit and go for a recognized name brand instead. It's too bad Apple is pressed for cash and didn't have that option.

 

[villicodelirant]

My company was considering DACs from Circus Logic but after meeting with their sales VP we decided to spend the extra 10 cents per unit and go for a recognized name brand instead. It's too bad Apple is pressed for cash and didn't have that option.

But... Cirrus Logic... is a recgnized brand. :|

 

[MarkusL]

But... Cirrus Logic... is a recgnized brand. :|

Yes, Cirrus Logic have been around for ages. I think they made the chipset for the ISA graphics card I put in my 386. But Circus Logic is a different story.

 

[furi0usbee]

Since installing Sierra on my 2012 rMBP, I've been getting random noise spikes, sounds like Q*bert. Just happened a few moments ago. Luckily I didn't have my speakers loud. But I can say this, I have them on level 4 out of 16 on volume, and I could hear this sound a good deal away while I was doing the laundry. If I had volume on 10, I'm certain that could have damaged or potentially damaged the speakers.

I do not now and have never had Boot Camp installed.

 

[fs454]

I'm adding my post here since all the topics in the actual MacBook Pro forum were locked, leaving the only way for users to discover this issue is to look at a now-buried news post. I don't think that's the best way to spread awareness that there's a pretty large issue in which the only solution is a full replacement. My original post below.

I got my entire machine replaced today because of this. The store I went to was unfamiliar with the issue, but Apple's official support doc (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207410) led them to an internal note which in big, bold red letters says "Replace whole unit". Thankfully they somehow had my 2.9/1TB/460 config in stock so I didn't have to wait again, but ehh.

Insult to injury, the notorious right-under-the-speaker scratch that's on nearly all 2016 15" models was on the new replacement as well. The Apple Store employees couldn't believe it. I settled into it anyways, I'd rather not nitpick so hard when there's clearly a widespread manufacturing oddity that's ultimately minor.

:edit: Guess I should also report that Time Machine / Windows 10 is all good as far as I can see. I reinstalled it immediately tonight and got down on some Battlefield 1 for a couple hours. The patch is included in the boot camp driver package. Not gonna let previous experience stop me here, if the thing fails it's in Apple's court again.

 

[aevan]

I'm adding my post here since all the topics in the actual MacBook Pro forum were locked, leaving the only way for users to discover this issue is to look at a now-buried news post. I don't think that's the best way to spread awareness that there's a pretty large issue in which the only solution is a full replacement. My original post below.

I got my entire machine replaced today because of this. The store I went to was unfamiliar with the issue, but Apple's official support doc (https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT207410) led them to an internal note which in big, bold red letters says "Replace whole unit". Thankfully they somehow had my 2.9/1TB/460 config in stock so I didn't have to wait again, but ehh.

Insult to injury, the notorious right-under-the-speaker scratch that's on nearly all 2016 15" models was on the new replacement as well. The Apple Store employees couldn't believe it. I settled into it anyways, I'd rather not nitpick so hard when there's clearly a widespread manufacturing oddity that's ultimately minor.

:edit: Guess I should also report that Time Machine / Windows 10 is all good as far as I can see. I reinstalled it immediately tonight and got down on some Battlefield 1 for a couple hours. The patch is included in the boot camp driver package. Not gonna let previous experience stop me here, if the thing fails it's in Apple's court again.

If I understood you correctly, you're saying bootcamp now works without damaging the speakers. Can you confirm they work normally when you boot back into macOS?

Thanks.

 

[MacsRuleOthersDrool]

What happened to QA testing at apple?

Kind of a Corner-Case to check, considering all the really-important things that need checking.

My feeling is that, when they increased the Power Amplifier power in the new MBPs, someone forgot to put it on the "needs checking" list for the testing scripts.

Now, unfortunately, we may have lost some of the output range of the new Amplifiers, in order to save the built-in speakers.

 

[fs454]

If I understood you correctly, you're saying bootcamp now works without damaging the speakers. Can you confirm they work normally when you boot back into macOS?

Thanks.

Yes, everything works correctly in both operating systems. For the record, the speakers don't become damaged silently, there's a very loud clicking/popping that happens randomly while booted into Windows when running with the affected speaker driver. You can literally hear the speaker tearing.
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Kind of a Corner-Case to check, considering all the really-important things that need checking.

My feeling is that, when they increased the Power Amplifier power in the new MBPs, someone forgot to put it on the "needs checking" list for the testing scripts.

Now, unfortunately, we may have lost some of the output range of the new Amplifiers, in order to save the built-in speakers.

I don't believe we lost anything with the updated driver. The issue was a rogue driver bug that would cause a strange popping tone. Driver has been fixed, thus no rogue popping tone. To repeat, the speakers are not blown due to listening to things too loudly - they are blown due to a rogue sound the driver would cause, even when no other sounds were playing.