Apple Updates Boot Camp With WiFi Improvements and Bug Fixes

[theluggage]

Apple (according to the Asahi folks) hasn't really thrown in deliberate roadblocks. They just aren't helping the project either.

Well, that's pretty much what "not supported" means in this context.

"Supported" would imply things like publishing all the necessary documentation for writing bootloaders and drivers and committing to not suddenly making breaking changes. Asahi are using a mechanism intended by Apple to allow developers to boot older, unsigned versions of MacOS.

I'm not sure about Raspberry Pi; Broadcom's might be similar or the same as Qualcomm.

Don't forget that while running full Win11 on the Pi is unofficial, unsupported and flakey, Microsoft does/did officially support "Windows 10 IoT Core" on the Raspberry Pi - and while that's a long way from being "full" Windows with a GUI it explains why the fundamentals of booting a Windows kernel, identifying devices and drivers for basic I/O and storage are already there.

It depends on the extent. Basic stuff should be possible for Microsoft to do; Asahi Linux has done it.

Yes, but Asahi Linux is a crowdfunded "free software" project that runs on enthusiasm and "enlightened self interest". They've made really impressive progress but are still a long way from a stable production version & really have to keep their fingers crossed that Apple won't - intentionally or unintentionally - break what they're doing with future hardware/firmware. Microsoft would want a rather better business case - probably with some longer term support guarantees from Apple - to do something that is not necessarily in their interest.

Trouble is, Apple are currently way ahead of the game when it comes to making personal-computer-class ARM SoCs. If Microsoft released a full-blown, native, WoA for Apple Silicon in the near future then they'd pretty much be handing Apple 100% of the Windows-on-ARM market overnight. That's not going to please Dell, HP, Lenovo etc. who are currently key to Microsoft's original business model of software licensing to OEMs - and who won't be able to make their own Apple Silicon systems unless Apple U-turns on licensing. I doubt MS would risk it - if they want to push WoA then the route would be to pursue "Microsoft Silicon" as something that could be licensed to OEMs (which is kinda what they're already doing with Qualcomm) and they really don't want to set up Apple Silicon as the target to beat...

 

[chucker23n1]

Well, that's pretty much what "not supported" means in this context.

It can. "Not supported" can mean "it works but we don't support it", "it might work but we don't support it" or "it doesn't work and we won't support fixing it". They seem to be more in the first camp.

"Supported" would imply things like publishing all the necessary documentation for writing bootloaders and drivers

Right.

and committing to not suddenly making breaking changes.

But that's the thing: they have.

Asahi are using a mechanism intended by Apple to allow developers to boot older, unsigned versions of MacOS.

Nope. They're using a mechanism specifically for other OSes.

I have heard from *several* Apple employees that:

1. The boot method we use is for 3rd-party OSes, and Apple only use it to test that it works, because
2. It is *policy* that it works.

Don't forget that while running full Win11 on the Pi is unofficial, unsupported and flakey, Microsoft does/did officially support "Windows 10 IoT Core" on the Raspberry Pi - and while that's a long way from being "full" Windows with a GUI it explains why the fundamentals of booting a Windows kernel, identifying devices and drivers for basic I/O and storage are already there.

Absolutely — but like I said, the device tree on a Broadcam SoC is not the same as on Apple Silicon. (I'm not sure if Qualcomm differs. Either Windows supports both, or they're similar enough.)

(I'm not sure if IoT Core is CE-derived like Embedded Compact or NT-derived like Embedded. I think CE is gone and this is, much like Server Core, a cut-down NT.)

Yes, but Asahi Linux is a crowdfunded "free software" project that runs on enthusiasm and "enlightened self interest".

Yes.

If Microsoft released a full-blown, native, WoA for Apple Silicon in the near future then they'd pretty much be handing Apple 100% of the Windows-on-ARM market overnight. That's not going to please Dell, HP, Lenovo etc. who are currently key to Microsoft's original business model of software licensing to OEMs

This is true, but the same issue applies to Microsoft launching their Surface line. I don't think Acer, Dell, … were happy about that. Microsoft did it regardless.

The thing is, retail copies of Windows aren't that big a business any more (and really haven't been since Microsoft shot themselves in the foot with Windows Vista® Ultimate™), and while OEM copies are obviously still a thing, they're well beyond their heyday.

 

[chucker23n1]

Doesn't the original bootcamp emulate PC BIOS from an intel system without it?

Yes and no.

The original Boot Camp (2006) was three things:

• the addition of a BIOS compatibility mode to Apple's EFI;
• Boot Camp Assistant, mostly to help you partition the disk;
• a set of drivers for Windows

That first part is no longer relevant, since Windows now boots from EFI as well.

But yes, it was an example of Apple specifically expanding its firmware to make booting Windows easier.

If so would it be that hard for an A-Si Bootcamp to emulate the HAL/device tree so windows thinks it's basically that?

That may be possible. (Especially if Apple can emulate the tree provided by a Broadcom or Qualcomm SoC.)

Is Apple interested in it? Doesn't seem that way. 2006 Apple was in a very different position.

Could a third party do it, now that Linux has? Maybe; I'm actually not sure how modular Windows's HAL is for third parties to expand.

Then Apple additionally provide any windows drivers required to fully implement it?

That's definitely an option, sure.

 

[AndreaCicca]

Is it free?

No, it’s an expensive product that you have to pay every year if you want the latest version.

 

[xbjllb]

This is interesting seeing as intel Macs are quickly dying out. I sense a security update in here as well.

 

[theluggage]

But that's the thing: they have.

Here (~1:02:56) we have Craig Federighi on-camera clearly and unambiguously saying "We're not direct booting an alternate operating system ... it's all virtualisation". If you look at the other widely quoted "native Windows is up to MS" and try to dig into the source (there's no video or direct transcript) it becomes apparent that the context for that was virtualisation vs. x86 emulation (plus, at that time, you couldn't get a production version of WoA).

I'll need something more convincing than deniable hearsay on twitter to overturn that. They certainly haven't publicly committed to supporting alternate OSs.

Absolutely — but like I said, the device tree on a Broadcam SoC is not the same as on Apple Silicon. (I'm not sure if Qualcomm differs. Either Windows supports both, or they're similar enough.)

Sure, my point was that's probably why Win11 is running on Raspberry Pi but not "bare" Apple Silicon.

This is true, but the same issue applies to Microsoft launching their Surface line. I don't think Acer, Dell, … were happy about that.

Microsoft doesn't really seem to be pushing their Surface line against the big PC OEMs, they're really sticking to the premium consumer end of the market and going after Apple - and they're not offering anything that the OEMs couldn't do better if they tried.

With ARM, it's not like the OEMs already have a foothold in the market - it would be taking a fairly new product class, ARM-powered Windows laptops, and giving Apple a massive head start with a product based on Apple-proprietary chips that the OEMs couldn't replicate .

and while OEM copies are obviously still a thing, they're well beyond their heyday.

Sure, selling retail copies of windows has never been big business, but MS still get a tithe on every PC sold plus bulk licensing from business. That may be declining but it is still serious money, and its going to be years before services are going to take over that load... meanwhile they can (and do) make money selling services like Office365 to MacOS users without converting them to Windows.

 

[icwhatudidthere]

For anyone curious, it seems the Windows 11 ARM that Parallels 18 installs is not an Insider version. This is the image that Parallels 18 downloads:

22000.318.211104-1236.co_release_svc_refresh_CLIENTCONSUMER_RET_A64FRE_en-us.iso

It activated fine with the Win 10 key I used to use in Parallels on my Intel iMac. I see no mention of Dev or Insider anywhere, in fact, it downloaded and installed this version without knowing anything about my Microsoft accounts.

 

[icwhatudidthere]

So I was able to install the Windows 11 ARM image from the Windows Insider Program in a VM on my MacBook Pro and then activated it with a fresh Windows 11 Pro license key. My situation is a bit unique in that I work at Microsoft so when I connected the VM to the corporate network it identified I was on a licensed and activated WIP version and promptly updated it to Windows Enterprise 11 ARM64 edition so I am on Build 22000.856 in the General Availability Channel as if I was running a "retail" copy (this is an identical build and Channel as the purchased Windows 11 retail copy I have on my Alienware gaming PC).

That's interesting! I've no connection to Microsoft at all and running a fresh copy of Parallels 18 on my M1 Pro MBP, I just followed the wizard that installs Windows 11. It downloaded what looks like a retail copy that's also the same build (screenshot in previous post), 22000.856.

 

[iPhoneFan5349]

No, it’s an expensive product that you have to pay every year if you want the latest version.

Then pass. Boot Camp was free and native.

 

[CWallace]

That's interesting! I've no connection to Microsoft at all and running a fresh copy of Parallels 18 on my M1 Pro MBP, I just followed the wizard that installs Windows 11. It downloaded what looks like a retail copy that's also the same build (screenshot in previous post), 22000.856.

I believe Microsoft has moved Windows 11 ARM64 out of "preview" and into the "general release" channel so that seems to be the ISOs that are now being made available. So it seems that you effectively are getting the "retail" version of Windows 11 ARM64 and that can be licensed + activated with any legitimate Windows 10 or 11 license key.

 

[LeonPro]

This latest update isn't showing up for me. Anyone else?

 

[7thson]

This latest update isn't showing up for me. Anyone else?

It’s not for me either.

 

[LeonPro]

Maybe the deployment is machine-specific for now.

 

[7thson]

Maybe the deployment is machine-specific for now.

To be fair, I just woke the machine up after 4 days shut off. It installed four updates, the last being 6.1.17. I’ll give it the day and try again tonight.

 

[LeonPro]

Weird, now a new Boot Camp updated is showing up 6.1.18.

I reinstalled Windows 10 last night as I wanted it gone from a partition drive and onto its own drive.

This morning Boot Camp update advised there were two updates which is 6.1.13 and 6.1.14.

Just right now when I checked, I'm being given Boot Camp Update 6.1.15 and 6.1.18.

 

[LeonPro]

FYI

6.1.18 states: "Updated AMD graphics driver"

 

[r8ders2k]

For anyone curious, it seems the Windows 11 ARM that Parallels 18 installs is not an Insider version. This is the image that Parallels 18 downloads:

22000.318.211104-1236.co_release_svc_refresh_CLIENTCONSUMER_RET_A64FRE_en-us.iso

View attachment 2046266
It activated fine with the Win 10 key I used to use in Parallels on my Intel iMac. I see no mention of Dev or Insider anywhere, in fact, it downloaded and installed this version without knowing anything about my Microsoft accounts.

Which Mac are you using?

 

[zarmanto]

FYI

6.1.18 states: "Updated AMD graphics driver"

!!!!!!!!

Must download...

 

[CWallace]

I have no idea what version of BC I am on - About returns Version 6.1 (Build Version 7866). I know it's been awhile since I have seen it offered via Apple Software Update under Windows.

 

[LeonPro]

I don't know what improved with 6.1.18 for my AMD GPU. I wish Apple weren't cryptic with a one-liner.

I'm secretly hoping you can now official mix GPUs with an MPX and a third-party AMD card at the same time. My Gigabyte RX 6900 XT is just sitting in a box as I packed it up and returned to the Vega II for stability and Thunderbolt 3 features. I can use both in MacOS, but not officially in Windows.

 

[r8ders2k]

I have no idea what version of BC I am on - About returns Version 6.1 (Build Version 7866). I know it's been awhile since I have seen it offered via Apple Software Update under Windows.

Mine also shows 6.1 and I'm still not seeing any update.

 

[Yebubbleman]

Man, it really wouldn't be THAT much for them to take the handful of Intel Macs that meet the system requirements and give them Windows 11 support. A 2019 16" MacBook Pro or a 2020 27" iMac would run Windows 11 quite well!

 

[Yebubbleman]

I can download windows 11 legally directly from the Microsoft website without having to pay anything.

You can download Windows 11 for x86-64 legally and directly from the Microsoft website without having to pay anything. (So long as you have a valid product key.)

You CANNOT download Windows 11 for ARM64 legally and directly from the Microsoft website. At best, you can download a .vhdx of a Windows 11 for ARM64 virtual machine currently running the latest Insider Preview (read: beta release) and then convert that to run in the hypervisor of your choice so long as that hypervisor supports .vhdx files. Even this requires that you have a valid product key.

 

[sideshowuniqueuser]

As I understand it, at the moment Qualcomm has an exclusive agreement with Microsoft that effectively prevents Apple from creating a Boot Camp environment for Apple Silicon Macs.

This agreement does not apply to virtualized environments, which is why many of us are running Windows 11 as a VM under macOS on ASi Macs.

Quite dumb of MS. There are a LOT of software contractors that choose Macs as their dev machines. I'm talking a HUGE percentage. And guys like me have a handful of languages we like to use. At the moment I am actively holding out on choosing any work requiring .NET or SQLServer. Not that it's impossible, just the lack of full support is enough to choose the alternatives.

My first choice is my MBP, end of story. My second choice is currently React, Java Spring, and any DB except SQL Server.

 

[chucker23n1]

Quite dumb of MS. There are a LOT of software contractors that choose Macs as their dev machines. I'm talking a HUGE percentage. And guys like me have a handful of languages we like to use. At the moment I am actively holding out on choosing any work requiring .NET or SQLServer. Not that it's impossible, just the lack of full support is enough to choose the alternatives.

My first choice is my MBP, end of story. My second choice is currently React, Java Spring, and any DB except SQL Server.

This is exactly what I do, and… I’m not sure why you think that requires running Windows natively? A VM is fine. .NET works increasingly well in macOS anyway. SQL Server can be in a Linux container. The rest can be in a Windows 11 VM.