Apple Updates Website to Highlight Removal of Apple Watch Blood Oxygen Feature

[hans1972]

"I disagree with that notion officer. I didn't steal that vase. This vase just looks similar to what I made."

Doesn't matter what they think, court found in favor of Masimo. Apple got caught stealing, plain and simple, and they failed to prove they didn't. The only reason they're appealing as much as possible is because they wanna avoid having to pay a royalty for the patents they stole.

You don't steal patents, you violate them. A patent is a public document which is available to everyone and you can make as many copies as you want.

An administrative agency,, ITC, found Apple violating 5 claims across two patents, so just a small part of two patents. This case isn't about royalty. Even if Apple looses the appeal, the court can award Masimo royalties or anything.

The case is between Apple v ITC.

 

[farmboy]

No. A patent is a public document which must contain everything about the patent, so there is no secret knowledge.

ITC found Apple guilty of violating 5 claims across 2 patents, not using proprietary knowledge.

Mostly right. There are plenty of trade secrets that are not covered in patents, and they are secret for a variety of reasons.

 

[hans1972]

I'm wondering this as well. Since it's only changing in Software, not hardware? That's my understanding. They're not manufacturing tons of new iPhones with a missing or removed component. How can they differentiate between S9 & Ultra 2 Watches already here in the states? Because this only impacts models being imported into the states, not ones already here.

Every Apple device has a serial number. So they just check the serial number of the device.

 

[hans1972]

A demonstration on how stupid the patent system is… the tech is still there. It just doesn’t have the app…
So you are not really protecting the IP but only the business related to that

You don't patent the hardware, the patent covers functionality and the hardware implements the functionality.
If the hardware no longer provides the function, it can't violate the patent.

 

[michaelsviews]

Seeing as he runs the most valuable company in the world, he is doing something right.

Isn't "We think you'll like it" Tim's favorite saying?

We "Apple" steal from others but don't try doing it to Apple............

 

[hans1972]

Mostly right. There are plenty of trade secrets that are not covered in patents, and they are secret for a variety of reasons.

Yes, but then they're trade secrets and not patents.

You can only violate a patent by breaking one or more claims of the patent. Those claims are part of the patent document and publicly available.

Therefore you can't hire people to violate patents via trade secrets because those trade secrets isn't part of the patent.

 

[ProfessionalFan]

In some ways this seems like kind of a loss for Masimo. They aren't going to get any licensing fees, and this isn't going to increase their product sales.

In what way is that a loss?

Isn't "We think you'll like it" Tim's favorite saying?

We "Apple" steal from others but don't try doing it to Apple............

What a non-sequitur. Has nothing to do with the comment I was replying to.

 

[tivoboy]

No doubt it is useful to some people. But what percentage of people is that? Apple generally does not make products for a niche population. So, I still think it’s mostly there for marketing purposes.

Well, within the NA population, between ages 40-80, 37% of that population have COPD. This doesn’t include the population that has Asthma, Emphysema, Lung disease, and other pulmonary afflictions. So, I think the population that can USE O2 data to help them manage a condition might be higher than one would think.

Doesn’t necessarily apply to a much younger population, but two things do apply. A) Overall younger generations are more interested in their health and fitness data than prior generations. B) younger generations have a much higher incidence rate of MULTIPLE covid infections, more than 85% having had at least one primary infection. The cumulative effect of multiple covid infections is proving to have a much larger impact on lung function and damage than the medical community has seen with seasonal flu or cold infections. Even cumulative. So, I think overall ALL generations are going to be more interested, if not also incented to have access to O2 data going forward.

Only time will tell.

 

[Regbial]

How embarrassing for them lol… guess they’ll have to think harder on new features for the next iteration of the Apple Watch this year to try to make people forget about this 😆

 

[DMG35]

Companies set prices based on what they think the customer will pay and provide the desired margin. If customers balk they can lower prices, if not there is no business reason to lower them.

Yes you are right. And that price was set based on a watch with a certain set of features. That feature set has now been reduced so you would think they might drop the price slightly. I'm not saying they should or do I care if they do but I think it would go a long way with people who are in the market for one if they are aware of what's going on with Apple and Masimo (which I admit is probably unlikely).

For the record I'm not saying they should lower the price. I was just curious if that would be something that would make sense for them to do as it seems like the logical thing to do. Lower it until the X comes out and go from there. But I realize doing that opens a whole other can of worms up.

 

[farmboy]

So what you are trying to say is Apple will utilise its way bigger coffer to choke out and kill Masimo should patents involved in this debacle be deemed invalid?

Apple doesn't determine if a patent is invalid, the USPTO and the courts do. Masimo is worth multiple billions, so they can afford the defense.

 

[DMG35]

Well, maybe you're missing something?

My explanation can explain a lot.

1. Apple keeps the price the same. Why?

Freedom. Apple can deicide the price themselves.

2. Apple reduces the price. Why?

Freedom. Apple can deicide the price themselves.

3. Apple increase the price. Why?

Freedom. Apple can deicide the price themselves.

Your explanation implies that anyone thought that Apple couldn't decide their own pricing. We all know that so your esxplanation isn't really that, its just words.

 

[onenorth]

Mostly right. There are plenty of trade secrets that are not covered in patents, and they are secret for a variety of reasons.

I'm not sure if there is a separate trade secrets case going on, but the ITC case has nothing to do with trade secrets.

 

[MacAttack2024]

I honestly don’t think so. The fallout from this will be fairly minimal, IMO. Disable the feature first to get around the import ban and buy time while Apple continues to work on a technical workaround.

iPhone users will likely continue to get an Apple Watch because that’s the best smartwatch which works with an iPhone, even without a blood oxygen sensor.

Meanwhile, either wait out the patent (March 2028), or continue to try and prove that the patents held by Masimo have zero merit.

If Apple succeeds, which I think they believe they will, in getting all of Masimo’s claims invalidated some time later in 2024, Masimo will face a potentially massive claim for lost revenue from Apple due to the ITC ban. Masimo’s CEO’s surprise and dismay at Apple’s announcement to stop selling the watches tells the story, in my opinion.

Assuming the above is true, the way Apple is letting this play out puts Masimo in a quite perilous position. This could end up very costly, even ruinous, for Masimo.

The real battle is still far from over.

It’s not the fallout.

It’s the fact that Apple will play games with consumer health products. Ie they don’t mind deactivating a health feature while they fight patent disputes. What if this was the EKG sensor?

It just tells the customer Apple is only interested in Apple keeping as much money as possible. To me this just shows the management shift at the company has intensified. Clearly consumer is not first (and it never truly is, with any company), but now it’s more and more obvious.

 

[I7guy]

This is shocking never thought Apple would go as far as removing a big feature from a Hero device (what we call Big Products at Apple). I would of thought theyd settle with a monetary amount with the company or buy the company to own the technology.

Honestly this will affect my decision making on purchasing a new Apple Watch. I use this feature and think its important.

The feature is not being removed from a watch you already own. And unless you are looking for a new watch in the very short term (yep out of luck in the short term) you should be okay.

 

[Ghost31]

According to the ceo of massimo when he went on tv for an interview, Apple just poached his employees and they continued the work on o2 sensors with Apple as they were doing at his company. It looks bad. He also said he’s been willing to license the tech but Apple hasn’t even talked to him. If that’s true, wtf Apple

 

[I7guy]

It’s not the fallout.

It’s the fact that Apple will play games with consumer health products. Ie they don’t mind deactivating a health feature while they fight patent disputes. What if this was the EKG sensor?

What if games?

It just tells the customer Apple is only interested in Apple keeping as much money as possible.

No it doesn’t and I’m an apple customer also.

To me this just shows the management shift at the company has intensified.

What management shift? Companies been more or less stable since 2011.

Clearly consumer is not first (and it never truly is, with any company), but now it’s more and more obvious.

No it’s not. You want apple to die in the sword. No company is going to do that.

If your opinion of apple has degraded (whether it was a good opinion or not to begin with, I don’t know), so be it.

 

[rp100]

Apple got caught side-loading on their own device.
/s

 

[I7guy]

According to the ceo of massimo when he went on tv for an interview, Apple just poached his employees and they continued the work on o2 sensors with Apple as they were doing at his company. It looks bad. He also said he’s been willing to license the tech but Apple hasn’t even talked to him. If that’s true, wtf Apple

So you took all of this at face value from the tv interview?

 

[jz0309]

According to the ceo of massimo when he went on tv for an interview, Apple just poached his employees and they continued the work on o2 sensors with Apple as they were doing at his company. It looks bad. He also said he’s been willing to license the tech but Apple hasn’t even talked to him. If that’s true, wtf Apple

that's the crux right there, the highlighted piece ...

 

[gomichaelgo]

Ok, so it's the same watch, they didn't physically remove anything. So if they win this or come to an agreement, it'll be put back on, right?

 

[Pezimak]

You can't patent an idea.

So how do you explain the thousands of patents Apple alone has which have never been used then? Seems to me in the US quite the opposite is true. I’ve often read about this or that being patented but the ‘idea’ never materialises into a product. But it does stop competitors from patenting the same ‘idea’ and using it to profit.

But that has no bearing on this case as Masimo did make an sell an oxygen sensor that they did patent, and Apple poached the staff who made it to make one for them, unsurprisingly copying the one already patented.

 

[Chaka Jon]

And let's be honest here, how many apple watch owners actually even know what that feature is and use it?

What a ridiculous thing to say.

Apparently you don’t have pulmonary issues.

 

[Pezimak]

99% of the “public” are oblivious to this issue.

Apart from in The US of course. Where any customer looking to buy the Ultra 2 or series 9 will be fully aware of the issue, and disabled functionality.

 

[Glideslope]

That would be on new devices where the hardware is added back. Not the ones on sale today.

Where are you seeing the new model number is missing hardware? They have the app. Seems like Apple is not signing the App on the new model number?