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Popular with the actual majority of voters? Only 38% currently approve of Trump, and he lost the popular vote by 3 million lol.
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Meaningless stat, written to make yourself feel better. What is that, less than 1% of the population? The popular vote doesn't elect the president. Trump supporters could write that Trump won over 2500 counties to Clinton's less than 500 counties. 5 times more, showing his broad popularity. Perhaps that shows why he won the electoral college vote. How we actually elect the president of the U.S.

Obama's hand was forced by congressional deadlock, which was caused by Republicans.
By the way, how do you feel about Trump's executive orders?
Or, you could say Obama chose not to work with the Republicans to pass legislation. Obama Care, the only major legislation in US history that did not receive a single vote from the other party. I believe that says much more about the Dems than it does about the Republicans.
 
Always find it amazing how Tim can be so right on some things (i.e. privacy) and so wrong on others. DACA is a violation of US immigration law. Trump is just following the law, undoing another illegal executive order from his predecessor. If you like the idea of DACA, then it has to go to the House, then the Senate, and then signed into law after that, by the sitting President. This is what is going on here. Stop frivolous lawsuits, and go petition your elected officials to get off their collective arse's and work on a bill.
 
It was only an executive order because the congress at the time couldn’t get over their own asses to pass anything.

It is in times such as these that I wish American public schools still taught civics, so that Americans might understand how our Constitution works. Congress has no obligation to obey the President; it is rather the other way around — the President has a Constitutional obligation to obey Congress. That is precisely why the Constitution provides that the Presidents shall take care that the laws (Congress makes the laws) be faithfully executed.

The default position in the US Constitution is "No". If the President demands a change in law, and Congress does not act, Congress is not in default of any responsibility. The answer is "No".
 
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It never ceases to amaze me how little people know about this issue before spouting off opinions, and I’ll never understand how someone can morally support such a cruel and tragic decision. This country still has such a long way to go.....
What’s more tragic is the fact that the previous admin. put these people in this situation in the first place (yes I realize someone said this already but it’s true). It shows that they just wanted to force this workaround (because it’s not even a true executive order) and not worry about the consequences. Just push it and who cares what happens as long as we let the illegals in, because humanity. No logic, just emotion. Now we’re in this mess.
 
You don’t doubt that he lost the popular vote by 3 million right? Because if you doubt that, then you doubt the legitimacy of the election

This business about the popular vote is irrelevant. The election of a US President is like the World Series; it's not how many total runs are scored which determines who takes the World Series — it is the number of games won.
 
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Or, you could say Obama chose not to work with the Republicans to pass legislation. Obama Care, the only major legislation in US history that did not receive a single vote from the other party. I believe that says much more about the Dems than it does about the Republicans.

You should actually look into the legislative history of Obamacare. There were months of debates, tons of concessions. If Democrats had decided to just ram it through like you want to believe, there'd be a public option on what is fundamentally a conservative plan. I believe that says much more about the Reps than it does about the Democrats.
 
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You should actually look into the legislative history of Obamacare. There were months of debates, tons of concessions. If Democrats had decided to just ram it through like you want to believe, there'd be a public option on what is fundamentally a conservative plan. I believe that says much more about the Reps than it does about the Democrats.
Oh, there were lots of discussions. Concessions, really? That is why so many middle of the road Reps voted for it. NOT!
I didn't see the sarcasm indicator by the phrase "fundamentally a conservative plan." The federal government has no constitutional authority to implement a national health care system. The Supreme Court said if you consider the fees paid by citizens as a tax then it can go through. Which, by the way, Obama said he would not create a tax to pay for it and he denied it was a tax all along. Funny, he didn't withdraw the plan when the court said it was a tax. For the Dems it was more important to pass it anyway they could than to live by their word.
 
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This business about the popular vote is irrelevant. The election of a US President is like the World Series; it's not how many total runs are scored which determines who takes the World Series — it is the number of games won.

The surprising thing is that a presidential candidate forgot that fact.
 
Popular with whom? His policies were clearly rejected leading to the election of Trump.
If you were found to be from illegal parents but had only ever lived in America and were told you had to go to a country you never even remember let alone want to go to. You might feel differently about being sent against your will. They are as American as you are. I think it shameful you promise something then take it away. This has caused every country that deals with the US to now assume deals are only valid for the term of the current administration. That’s a terrible prescident to sent and will affect US to a greater degree than DACA ever could.
 
DACA was a temporary executive order. Any president has the power to terminate it. Full stop.

So simple even a liberal can understand it.
Yet Obama could not even stop his uncle being deported when he was the president. I guess he’s not a dreamer like these people so it’s okay to deport him. Obviously this is politics as usual and we act like this is an easy decision for the president.
 
Popular with the actual majority of voters? Only 38% currently approve of Trump, and he lost the popular vote by 3 million lol.
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Oh can we bloody stop with the popular vote witching?! Th electoral college is designed for candidates to visit smaller cities and states in the country to win elections rather than focus on large urban areas which would be more efficient use of time if you want just votes. You really think campaigning in New Hampture and Colorado will help you win the popular vote? Please.
 
I’m a Daca receiptient it sucks but what can ya do? Laws are laws.. sucks no one will truly understand how it is unless you are the one in a daca receipents shoes.
 
I thought the purpose of this was to give people who got here illegally through no fault of their own, time to make themselves legal. If Apple cares so much about their 250 workers why doesn't TC hire some lawyers to get them converted to a permanent legal status?

How is it that children brought to America have become adult employees without complying with the law?

I don't have any desire to deport these people, but if they can't be bothered to do what it takes to be a legal citizen then they shouldn't have everyone falling all over themselves to protect them.

I'm sure that many (likely most) of the people in question would jump at the opportunity to become U.S. citizens (or even just lawful permanent residents), even if it involved considerable hassle and took a while. But the reality is that, as our laws work now, it isn't a possibility for the vast majority of them. Even with DACA it wasn't feasible for most of them.

I think we've discussed why that is - i.e., how our laws work - in more detail in another thread, though it's possible that the discussion I'm recalling was on another forum.
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Always find it amazing how Tim can be so right on some things (i.e. privacy) and so wrong on others. DACA is a violation of US immigration law. Trump is just following the law, undoing another illegal executive order from his predecessor. If you like the idea of DACA, then it has to go to the House, then the Senate, and then signed into law after that, by the sitting President. This is what is going on here. Stop frivolous lawsuits, and go petition your elected officials to get off their collective arse's and work on a bill.

The bold-ed is an open question. Our immigration laws give the executive branch considerable discretion in the enforcement of those laws - on the whole, I'd say that area of federal law builds in even more enforcement discretion than is typical.

I'm not sure, for my own part, that a proper interpretation of existing law gives the executive branch rightful discretion to do everything that DACA did. But it surely gives the executive branch discretion to do some of what DACA did and there are plausible arguments - based on the laws themselves, long-standing (and accepted) regulations promulgated pursuant to them, and prior court decisions - that the executive branch has the discretion to do the other things which DACA did.
 
The bold-ed is an open question. Our immigration laws give the executive branch considerable discretion in the enforcement of those laws - on the whole, I'd say that area of federal law builds in even more enforcement discretion than is typical.

While there is a degree of discretion relating to enforcement of the immigration laws that is given to the Executive (or he has inherently), what Obama did with his EO on DACA was basically re-write the law that the Congress had enacted. That is going way, way too far, and that's why everyone had a big problem with it, including the courts. His selective enforcement and discretion argument was complete BS and a pathetic way to justify to do what he really wanted to do, which was provide amnesty to people here illegally.
 
Oh can we bloody stop with the popular vote witching?! Th electoral college is designed for candidates to visit smaller cities and states in the country to win elections rather than focus on large urban areas which would be more efficient use of time if you want just votes. You really think campaigning in New Hampture and Colorado will help you win the popular vote? Please.
Irrelevant. My point was that the majority of Americans do not support Mr. Trump and do not want him in office.
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Or, you could say Obama chose not to work with the Republicans to pass legislation. Obama Care, the only major legislation in US history that did not receive a single vote from the other party. I believe that says much more about the Dems than it does about the Republicans.
Nah. Republicans in congress made it their explicit mission to roadblock everything Obama tried to do. Definitely says more about them.
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"Congressional deadlock" is another way of saying "I don't know how to manage the legislative process." Neither of the previous Presidents had problems getting legislation through Congress.

Specifically, Trump at least brought his stuff to a vote, something that Obama was never able to do.
Yeah, funny how that works when you control Congress and the senate. Much easier to get stuff done. Unfortunately, despite controlling both houses, Trump still can’t manage to do sh#*. Or should I say “fortunately” since his policy proposals are opiate for simpletons.
 
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DACA was a temporary executive order. Any president has the power to terminate it. Full stop.

So simple even a liberal can understand it.

I'm not arguing that, in this case, the DHS wasn't allowed to do what it did - i.e., implement a policy which, in effect, reversed the DACA policy which was put in place a few years ago.

That said, the legal issue isn't as simple as you are suggesting it is. Regardless of whether the new policy is in itself allowed under our Constitution and other relevant laws, the Administrative Procedure Act imposes requirements - both procedural and substantive - on agency rule-making. If those requirements aren't met, then the rule (or policy) isn't valid. It is on such grounds that the DACA's recision is being challenged.

It may be the case that notice-and-comment procedures were required to be followed in implementing this rule. (Indeed, Judge Hanen issued a preliminary injunction against DAPA and the DACA-expansion on that basis. He blocked those policies because he found, among other things, that it was likely that the DHS didn't jump through the procedural hoops that the APA requires it to jump through in implementing such a policy - not because he found that it was likely that those policies violated the Constitution.)

It's also possible that the DHS' stated reason for rescinding DACA - essentially, that it was itself illegal - was mistaken. If that's the case, then that action may fail other requirements of the APA. It may, in not being based on a legitimate reason, be arbitrary and capricious and as such in violation of the APA.

The point is, it's not enough that a given executive branch action doesn't violate the Constitution or other laws. We have enacted laws - i.e., the Administrative Procedure Act - which further require that, for certain kinds of actions, certain procedures be followed in taking those actions and that certain kinds of reasons be the motivation for those actions. We can argue whether such requirements make sense, but the reality is that they are in place.

I'd also note that DACA wasn't an executive order. I realize that many refer to it as such and that the distinction isn't, depending on the context, particularly significant. The important thing here is that it represents agency rule-making, which possibly subjects it to requirements of the APA and to judicial review, just as its recision does.
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While there is a degree of discretion relating to enforcement of the immigration laws that is given to the Executive (or he has inherently), what Obama did with his EO on DACA was basically re-write the law that the Congress had enacted. That is going way, way too far, and that's why everyone had a big problem with it, including the courts. His selective enforcement and discretion argument was complete BS and a pathetic way to justify to do what he really wanted to do, which was provide amnesty to people here illegally.

I appreciate that many have reached that conclusion - i.e., that DACA didn't represent a proper exercise of executive branch discretion. But based on what the laws actually say, on what long-standing (and accepted) regulations promulgated pursuant to those laws actually say, and on court decisions relating to the extent of executive branch discretion in this area, I think there are reasonable arguments that certain aspects of DACA are properly within the discretion given to the executive branch. I think other aspects of DACA are certainly within that discretion.

We can get into that consideration if you'd like. But before doing so I'd be curious as to which aspects of DACA you think are rightfully within the executive branch's discretion and which aren't. Or do you think that none of them are?

I'd also ask what you mean when you say suggest that courts had a big problem with DACA. We're talking about the original DACA, not DAPA or the DACA expansion. The original DACA was never successfully challenged in court, as far as I'm aware, with most challenges failing on standing grounds. (Even DAPA and the DACA expansion were only blocked based on findings that they likely violated the APA, rather than on findings that they were per se likely unconstitutional.)
 
Oh, there were lots of discussions. Concessions, really? That is why so many middle of the road Reps voted for it. NOT!
I didn't see the sarcasm indicator by the phrase "fundamentally a conservative plan." The federal government has no constitutional authority to implement a national health care system. The Supreme Court said if you consider the fees paid by citizens as a tax then it can go through. Which, by the way, Obama said he would not create a tax to pay for it and he denied it was a tax all along. Funny, he didn't withdraw the plan when the court said it was a tax. For the Dems it was more important to pass it anyway they could than to live by their word.

You should look into the origins of the plan at the Heritage Foundation. You should look at the months of debates and hearings. You should look at the hundreds of Republican amendments. You should look at the fact that the ACA doesn't have a public option. I know you don't want to admit it, but the conservative Republican congress simply didn't want to work with Obama to get anything done. Says a lot about them and their supporters.
 
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Yeah, like I believe the same fake news polling that said Hillary will win by a landslide...
The 38% approval poll he mentioned is from Fox News - Trump's numbers are often worse in the mainstream media. So, then, you consider Fox News to be fake news? Good to know.
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Irrelevant. My point was that the majority of Americans do not support Mr. Trump and do not want him in office.
It seems more open-ended than that. The polls just say "approve" or "disapprove." Not "I would have voted for someone else" or "I wish someone else could replace him right now." I wonder how many people are like me and would have said "disapprove" to either candidate.
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When all else fails, "Clinton".
There is some merit to it. At least, for me, the reason I mention Clinton is that, like the other commenter, she was so arrogant from her political experience. It might have cost her the election to an absolutely ridiculous opponent.
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I thought the purpose of this was to give people who got here illegally through no fault of their own, time to make themselves legal. If Apple cares so much about their 250 workers why doesn't TC hire some lawyers to get them converted to a permanent legal status?

How is it that children brought to America have become adult employees without complying with the law?

I don't have any desire to deport these people, but if they can't be bothered to do what it takes to be a legal citizen then they shouldn't have everyone falling all over themselves to protect them.
Yeah... It's a big "if." I have no idea how the process works. I would think someone who's been living here since childhood, working, and not committing crimes should have an easy way in. Judging by everything else gov't-related, probably half the effort is just figuring out what the laws are and getting through tons of BS. I hope this can change because I'd rather we not have immigration laws that our government actively ignores.
 
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It seems more open-ended than that. The polls just say "approve" or "disapprove." Not "I would have voted for someone else" or "I wish someone else could replace him right now." I wonder how many people are like me and would have said "disapprove" to either candidate.
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There is some merit to it. At least, for me, the reason I mention Clinton is that, like the other commenter, she was so arrogant from her political experience. It might have cost her the election to an absolutely ridiculous opponent.
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Yeah... It's a big "if." I have no idea how the process works. I would think someone who's been living here since childhood, working, and not committing crimes should have an easy way in. Judging by everything else gov't-related, probably half the effort is just figuring out what the laws are and getting through tons of BS.

I also am not by any means an expert, but my Brother-in-law came here illegally from Vera Cruz many years ago (and not as a child).

When he married my sister, they decided to get him legal. I think it was hard. It took a long time. I know that it was expensive, but at the time she was a waitress and he was a bus boy at a casino, so it's not like they were rich. But between saving and help from family he got permanent status. So, I know it's possible for motivated people.
 
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