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Apple & Voltzwagon

Re: My two cents

Originally posted by amichalo
(1) AlphaTech - I know people are flaming you, but you kinda brought it on yourself. Don't loose your cool man.

(3) I wouldn't compare Apple to VW or Harley. Volkswagen translates from German approximately to "The People's Car". Perhaps that mantra is better suited to Dell or better yet, the e-machine. Harley is a closer comparison, although we are talking about an industry leader and icon with amazing owner loyalty (like Apple) and market share (unlike Apple).

(4) The best comparison I can make is Apple to BMW cars. These are the finest production automobiles on the planet. They command a premium for their performance, style, appointments, quality, service, and customer base.
Click to expand...

I just know quality, like Apple for computers and Harley for motorcycles. Like with most things in life, it is a matter of personal preference and choice. That is why we use Mac's and not peecee's.

I agree about comparing Apple to BMW cars. Yes they may cost more, but you get one hell of a machine for the money (same can be said for Harley).

One other item... I read an article not too long ago that of the five most recognized company logo's (Apple and Harley among them) Apple is the only one without any type in it. You go just about anywhere in the world and show people those two logo's and they know what they stand for. That is, unless you go somewhere there is no technology at all, and no contact with outside people (maybe the middle of the rainforests).
 
Me am good

k sorry about the out burst and all that. I said ford mainly cuz I love the mustang and Aston Martin. Oh yeah and for the price the Focus is nicer than the others in it class. But for inovated they're one of the main update to fuel cell people which is cool. VW well I made my point. Now on to BMW. Well they make very very nice cars. But the Z3+Z8 well I was in one and I was probably 5'5" and my head almost touched the roof but other that that they're sweet. Ferrari's nice, Italians r cool. I don't know why I just love Aston Martins. Oh yeah and cuz he called me a "hick" (funny cuz I live right next to Detroit and I don't like to brag but watch Grosse Pointe Blank then you see that I'm definitly not a hick Rekras) so as an English friend of mine says "piss off."
 
I have a VW and an old-school color apple on the back. I'm one of about four VW's I've seen in Orange County that has Apple stickers on the back. Aside from those, the only other Apple sticker I've ever seen on a car here is a Ford F-150, and I know the guy.

4 out of 5 cars with Apple stickers on them are VW's. That should say something.
 
A little word on VW

VW is not the best quality car, the japs have them beat, as well the japs have Harley Davidson beat on quality of bikes. Plain and simple anyone who would like to dispute either of those two facts can take a look at manufacture defects list. One will quickly see that Japanese manufacturing is of highest quality. Honda bikes are far higher quality than a Harley, bar none. I'm not saying HD is bad, but break it down and you'll find a Japanese bike has far fewer problems, gets better fuel milage, less noise pollution, and has lots less chrome to clean. That means more riding less work. I will say though working for a ferry boat company and meeting many HD owners they are of highest caliber people and some very nice people. That being said VW has some great aspects to their cars, mostly in terms of engine technology, lets take a look at their diesel engine, 50 mpg, direct injection into the cylinder, find me a gas engine with direct injection? On average a diesel engine will last for around 400,000 miles, as opposed to 200,000 for the average gasoline engine. Their turbo V-6 has 5 valves per cylinder. And they look great and ride well, and who doesn't love the Blue lit interior. Oh and how about those easily adjustable seats. They are a details company just like Apple, and that is what counts details!
 
Re: A little word on VW

Originally posted by rcpflyer
VW is not the best quality car, the japs have them beat, as well the japs have Harley Davidson beat on quality of bikes. Plain and simple anyone who would like to dispute either of those two facts can take a look at manufacture defects list. One will quickly see that Japanese manufacturing is of highest quality. Honda bikes are far higher quality than a Harley, bar none. I'm not saying HD is bad, but break it down and you'll find a Japanese bike has far fewer problems, gets better fuel milage, less noise pollution, and has lots less chrome to clean. That means more riding less work. I will say though working for a ferry boat company and meeting many HD owners they are of highest caliber people and some very nice people. That being said VW has some great aspects to their cars, mostly in terms of engine technology, lets take a look at their diesel engine, 50 mpg, direct injection into the cylinder, find me a gas engine with direct injection? On average a diesel engine will last for around 400,000 miles, as opposed to 200,000 for the average gasoline engine. Their turbo V-6 has 5 valves per cylinder. And they look great and ride well, and who doesn't love the Blue lit interior. Oh and how about those easily adjustable seats. They are a details company just like Apple, and that is what counts details!
Click to expand...

Here come the flames.... The new (2002 model year) HD Softail motorcycles are rated at 50mpg highway, and in the 40's for city. You can get either carb.'s or EFI on the Harley (your choice). As for noise polution, there is nothing nastier then having some rice rocket scream (literally) by you as you go down the highway. I know more then a few HD riders that have no issues with their Softail's. My uncle being one, and a person at work being the other. They have Herigate Softail, and a Fatboy respectivly. The only thing that I didn't like too much about shopping for my HD was the dealerships jacking up the price. I had a gap of about $2000 for the exact same motorcycle between a half dozen dealers. That was within about an hour or two from me. I really didn't want to travel longer then that to get the bike.

As for diesel engines... they stink, litterally (diesel fumes are butt-nasty). There is something to be said for a nice V8 engine. Who really goes more then 200,000 miles with a car??? I know of people with Harley's that have gone well over 100,000-200,000 miles. They are usually in environments that allow for a longer riding season, and can use the motorcycle more often.

As for fit and finish, HD has standards that the Japanese bikes cannot come close to. One of the things that attracts people to the Harley, is the chrome. I am already making a list of items that I will be replacing with chrome items.

Another thing... when you get a Harley, you also get the membership to HOG (Harley Owners Group). You get both the national and local memberships for the first year with the bike.

When it comes to vehicles, I will only buy American (brand if nothing else). Say whatever you want about American cars and motorcycles, I have had excellent results with them.

One last thing.. If it wasn't for Harley Davidson, their wouldn't be any Japanese motorcycles. Harely is the oldest motorcycle maker (in continuous production, not brought back from the dead like Indian and Norton). The brothers were the innovators that started the rest, just like Apple. If it wasn't for Apple, there wouldn't be m$ windows...
 
Re: comparing Macs...

Originally posted by eyelikeart
I often compare Macs to Ferraris. Right now the trend is to buy some dinky little Honda Civic and spend thousands of dollars to make it fast, while a Ferrari is built specifically to do so (not to mention look killer!). This of course showing a PC as the Civic (can be fitted with a "fast" processor and other amneties) and a Mac as the Ferrari (it's made to perform & a bit more expensive)...
Click to expand...
best post i've heard so far, right on eyelikeart
 
imac\VW

I would have to agree with those of you that compare the VW Beetle with the iMac (and yes, I own one of each). the New beetle has more than enough room for me and I am 6 feet tall. in fact, I have a hard time getting into most other cars now, because I am so used to the head room in a VW beetle.

Those of you fighting the motorcycle battle will never win, it is like fighting the PC/Mac battle with a PC fan.

I don't ride Motorcycles, but my wife does. If I were to buy a bike, it would be a harley. She rides them with her dad sometimes very long distance, and they hate harleys. They claim the ride is terrible for long distance. They go BMW all the way. Their slogan is ride a beemer, tow a harley.

I still like harleys, but I am not a die hard rider.
 
islygon

Do they base their opinion of Harley's on actual experience, or information provided by other sources (like BMW dealers)? Everyone that I know with a Harley (all Softail models) have no problem with going all day long on them. With standard/routine maintenance, they are extremely reliable. With normal riding (not ripping up the road when you go from a stop) you will get about 85,000 miles from the final drive belt. Say what you want about the reliability of shaft drive, belt provides more power to the rear wheel.

Harley's also rev lower, just like how Mac's MHz rating is less then peecee's. A Harley will still perform beyond your expectations and needs, just like a Mac will. Lower rev's, and MHz, also puts less strain on the rest of the machine. Harley's new 88B engine incorporates counter-balancers to reduce excessive vibration. Just like the G4 has the altivec engine in it.

To me, peecee's are like the 'sport' bikes (crotch rockets) which rev way too high and are usually used by people that only care about speed. Just like peecee users only care about how many GHz their chip runs at. I have also seen more then a few kids riding the rockets, weaving in and out of traffic, wearing shorts, low cut sneakers (if not less) and maybe a helmet. Pure stupidity.
 
most banal post ever, but...

emachines=ford
dell=gm
sony=toyota or honda?
sgi=ferrari
apple=porsche, obviously (curvilinear)
:rolleyes:


______________
compassionat.net
 
Re: Re: Apple & Voltzwagon

Originally posted by AlphaTech

I equate Apple to Harley Davidson. They both produce a product that many others have knock-off's of, but they produce superior products. They both cost more then the competition, but hold their value longer, and are worth the price. You can buy a Harley, roll off the lot, and sell it for more then you paid for it. You would probably have no problem selling it either (if you wanted to).
Click to expand...

And would you equate Apple's continued use of PC133 & slow ATA busses with Harley Davidson's continued use of ancient mechanical engineering?

[begin biker quote]
If I wanted a big vibrator between my leg's, I'd borrow my wife's.
[end biker quote]

The cult-like aspect of Apple's following would be much better analogized to a company with at least some spirit of innovation, and if there is one thing HD is not, it is innovative. Harley's are sold on flash & fluff, without substantive engineering progress in over 80 years (what's that in Moore's time?). Look at BMW's MotorBike division if you want to equate a motorcycle manufacturer with a cult following to Apple.

As for VW, there are advertising similarities a-plenty, and the whole cost thing is fairly parallel as well...pricing a new Passat vs. an Accord is alot like pricing an Apple vs. a Compaq.
 
I don't really want to get into the "your favorite car brand sucks" side of this discussion, but on the positive side, I've got to say my '01 Bettle GLX is the best vehicle I have ever owned. It's fun to drive, has lots of extra gizmos to make my commute more comfortable, and I can find parking when people in their new 20-ton Ford Outrageous are circling the block in tears.

Incidentally, I'm over six feet tall, and I'd have to sit on a stack of phone books before I came in contact with the roof. Of course you don't want to be tall in the BACK seat, but that's just how the car's shaped. Overall there's WAY more room in that cabin than you'd ever imagine.

As far as Harleys, I appreciate the comparison with Apple as a company, and I totally don't have a problem with the bikes. I do, however, take issue with the ungodly number of people here in SF for whom it doesn't matter if the bike has any power or not, so long as it can make people's eardrums bleed from four blocks away. That friggin irritates the hell out of me.

Which isn't really relevant to the topic at hand, but occasionally I just gotta bitch.
 
Re: A little word on VW

Originally posted by rcpflyer
VW is not the best quality car, the japs have them beat, as well the japs have Harley Davidson beat on quality of bikes. Plain and simple anyone who would like to dispute either of those two facts can take a look at manufacture defects list.
Click to expand...

I love this thread...

Quality, as measured by initial manufacturing defects belies little. When an item is delivered, the buyer's eye for details correlates with their passion for, and the cost of, the item. I know the one thing perventing me from buying a Cinema display is I can't convince Apple Store employees to keep opening boxes until I find one with absolutely zero pixel defects.

97% of all new Porsches receive a quality complaint upon delivery, and I can explain why:

When you spend a buttload more money than your accountant thinks you should on something, you will nitpick it to death. My complaint to my dealer was that some of the stitching on my steering wheel was done in a slightly different shade of thread (anal, I know)

I know that VW buyers are often just as nitpicky (my best friend has a new Beetle from the earliest US delivery, and he went over it with a fine tooth comb). I also know that mass-market cars (Fords, Hondas, anything that looks like a rental) just don't get the same attention/inspection upon delivery.

But I look at quality over the long term. My other Porsche is now 43 years old, and has 320,000 miles (on one rebuild). Find me a Honda like that.

My 9600 (retired last week to second machine status) ran for 5 years straight, and was powered down only for vacations & remodels. If I had to give up my new G4 tower, I could switch back to my 9600 easily, as it is still a VERY viable machine. 5 years of real usabilty for a computer is much like 50 for a car. Find me a Wintel like that.

The Japanese have been turning out cars for the US en masse since the early '60s, but how many Toyota Coronas do you see in an average day? Now, how many VW Busses (can't use Beetles, as far too many were sold)?

In 1986 I bought a Toyota Camry, at the time the pinnacle of build quality and reliability. It fell apart after 110,000 miles. My original Mac 128 (from 1984) is still running (when it emerges from a closet for the curious).

The Japanese build a viable product, a 100,000 mile, $10,000 disposable car. There is no passion or inspiration in an Echo, or a Civic, or an Integra, so you don't get all sad inside when they die. Kinda like the way you feel when a $999 computer fails after 2 years. This is what differentiates products from companies like Apple, BMW, HD, etc. Along with engineering (HD excepted), and functionality, they have a spirit...you not only use the products, but you connect with it in some way. You ENJOY them. You get excited and waste hours typing silly responses on rumor sites (think PC users do this with the glee that we do?).

That is, for me at least, a far better measure of quality.
 
Re: Re: Re: Apple & Voltzwagon

Originally posted by Nipsy


And would you equate Apple's continued use of PC133 & slow ATA busses with Harley Davidson's continued use of ancient mechanical engineering?

[begin biker quote]
If I wanted a big vibrator between my leg's, I'd borrow my wife's.
[end biker quote]

The cult-like aspect of Apple's following would be much better analogized to a company with at least some spirit of innovation, and if there is one thing HD is not, it is innovative. Harley's are sold on flash & fluff, without substantive engineering progress in over 80 years (what's that in Moore's time?). Look at BMW's MotorBike division if you want to equate a motorcycle manufacturer with a cult following to Apple.

As for VW, there are advertising similarities a-plenty, and the whole cost thing is fairly parallel as well...pricing a new Passat vs. an Accord is alot like pricing an Apple vs. a Compaq.
Click to expand...

HD IS innovating... I guess that you have been living in a cave or not watched either Discovery OR History channels in the past several months. The new (very new) HD V-ROD was a complete redesign from the pavement up. The engine was a partnership with Ferrari I believe. The 88b engine is an innovation in itself with the power and counter-balancers inside it to smooth out the ride. Harley Davidson motorcycles are a QUALITY product that last for decades. It is NOT uncommon to find a Harley from the 50's or 60's still in use (if not an earlier model). Harley has also evolved the engine in it's motorcycle over the years (just like Apple has with the processor). Starting with the Knucklehead back in the 30's all the way up to the Twin Cam 88B that is used today. Stating that Harley has not had any substantive engineering process in over 80 years belies your lack of real knowledge of the facts.

You don't think that Harley's have a cult-like following?? Wake up and get some coffee.

As for BMW motorcycles... I don't care if they have a team of engineers working 24/7 on improvements, I will still NEVER own, or ride, one. To me, they are butt-ugly.

I would also NEVER buy a vw vehicle, nor a suzuki, kawasaki (motorcycle), nissan, or toyota, there are more in the list but I won't go that far. If I had a ton of money to blow, I would consider a BMW car, as well as a ferrari.

As for Apple's use of PC133 memory, and you so-called 'slower ATA busses' :p . There are many peecee's out there still using PC133 memory as well as ATA66 and ATA100 hard drive busses. With the latest G4 chip, moto has incorporated DDR memory into the cache (how many other chips have that feature????). It is only a matter of time, and cost, before Apple goes with DDR memory. DDR memory IS more expensive then PC133. So, Apple is saving you money by staying with the PC133 memory, at least for now.

The easiest way to get your butt kicked is to go into someplace where there are Harley's parked out front, go inside, and make your comments about Harley's. Let me know when you get out of the hospital...
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Apple & Voltzwagon

Originally posted by AlphaTech


HD IS innovating... I guess that you have been living in a cave or not watched either Discovery OR History channels in the past several months. The new (very new) HD V-ROD was a complete redesign from the pavement up.


Ummm....by innovating I was talking about center hub steering, predictive ABS, oval pistons, things that make a great leap forward.

The V-ROD is innovative, for Harley-Davidson, but it still draws on a design (a damn good one) from 1909. That is not an industry innovation.


You don't think that Harley's have a cult-like following?? Wake up and get some coffee.


I meant that BMW has a cult-like following as well, as is much more innovative than HD. Park a K1 next to a /2...lots of innovation. Park a '20s Harley next to a Softail, lots of evolution.


As for BMW motorcycles... I don't care if they have a team of engineers working 24/7 on improvements, I will still NEVER own, or ride, one. To me, they are butt-ugly.


Much the way I feel about the original iMac, but it did a lot of things right for a lot of people.


The easiest way to get your butt kicked is to go into someplace where there are Harley's parked out front, go inside, and make your comments about Harley's. Let me know when you get out of the hospital...

I try my best to avoid the bathtub gin establishments where this might actually take place, but...I've made these arguments (without the Apple bits) to huge groups of Harley owners at Alice's Restaurant in La Honda, CA (a place close to motorcycling history), and most Harley riders agree wth me. They are NOT bikes you buy for engineering prowess or innovation.

I'm not against HD. They are Classic Americana. I personally don't like them, but I don't think that means others shouldn't. I take a lot of **** for riding a Vespa, but it is a hell of a lot easier to maneuver in SF street traffic than my R1000, and alot easier to park than either car. I would compare the industrial design of Vespa with Apple, but not the engineering. I would compare the engineering of Bimota with Apple, but not the industrial design. I would compare the brand loyalty of Harley Davidson with Apple, but not the innovation. BMW does a good job in all these areas.

As an aside, I have a photo I took at the San Francisco Hell's Angels Clubhouse in San Bruno, of five Club Officers' BMWs in a row under a 'Harley Parking Only' sign.
Click to expand...
 
Mac prices

I can't resist. This topic hits several subjects that I am very interested in.

First, I'm a pc owner, and have been for a long time. I've recently started considering macs due to some complaints I've had about pc's. (Constant OS upgrades at high prices, constant need for more speed and ram - due to those os upgrades, constant need to upgrade computers, and constant obsolescense [is that a word?] of state of the art pc computers [i.e. my $3000 computer is now worth about $250 with scanner])

Second, I have a fully customized '84 harley. Harley's last a long long time, and keep their value very well, however, they are very expensive.

From an outsider's standpoint, mac's are very interesting computers. They're just plain different. My biggest problem in taking the "mac plunge" is that there are few good comparisons between macs and pcs. In fact, mac's don't really compare well with anything else. They are just plain different.

Sure, PC's can do what macs do. Sure macs can do what pc's do. But, from their design to the way in which they do what they do, macs are different from every other computer out there. That being said, there is no question that pc's have taken design and operation idea from macs and incorporated them into their own designs.

The comparison of macs to vw's or harley's is valid, however, when vw introduced the beatle, it was following in another carmaker's footsteps.

Chrysler (say what you will about their quality, build, etc) was the first car company to really push the design of todays cars. The cab forward designs, pt cruiser prototypes, vipers, minivans, etc. pushed the design and function envelopes. They thought outside the people mover box.

VW's beatle is another - think outside the box car, but they've done it in a unique way.

Harley's have been around for a long time, are expensive, valuable, and are one of the industry leaders as far as what designs are mimicked by others.

----

I went shopping this weekend, and looked at several laptops. All pc based. After having seen the design innovation of the apple ibook and tig4 powerbook, and after having experienced the extremely fast rate at which pc's become obsolete, my opinion of macs has changed.

Maybe all the goofy mac users driving around in their vw beatles aren't quite so off kilter.

Ok, I'm rambling. Is it because I'm typing this on a pc? In fact, I don't even know if I've made my point, but such is life.
 
Re: Mac prices

Originally posted by mcrain
I went shopping this weekend, and looked at several laptops. All pc based. After having seen the design innovation of the apple ibook and tig4 powerbook, and after having experienced the extremely fast rate at which pc's become obsolete, my opinion of macs has changed.
Click to expand...

That's how it starts, looking at laptops. Portables are Apple's secret weapon for converting the masses. I'm just not sure even they realize it fully.

Sometime in the next few months, one of your coworkers will say something asinine and uninformed about Macs. You'll gently provide accurate information, and your coworker will guffaw and dismissively call YOU a Mac-lover. You can try to correct him. Tell him you're just being objective, but it won't do much good. Before long, you'll be known around your workplace as "the Mac guy" even if you've never owned one.

At the same time, you're considering buying an iBook or Powerbook, reading rumor sites, trying to suss out when the next revision will be released so that you can get in on the bleeding edge for several months. You're getting into the "lifestyle." It's only a matter of time.

Personally, I give it about a year to fully progress from your first iBook experience to full-on Mac fanatacism. ;)


Maybe all the goofy mac users driving around in their vw beatles aren't quite so off kilter.
Click to expand...

Hey, I resemble that remark!
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Apple & Voltzwagon

Originally posted by Nipsy
Ummm....by innovating I was talking about center hub steering, predictive ABS, oval pistons, things that make a great leap forward.

The V-ROD is innovative, for Harley-Davidson, but it still draws on a design (a damn good one) from 1909. That is not an industry innovation.

I try my best to avoid the bathtub gin establishments where this might actually take place, but...I've made these arguments (without the Apple bits) to huge groups of Harley owners at Alice's Restaurant in La Honda, CA (a place close to motorcycling history), and most Harley riders agree wth me. They are NOT bikes you buy for engineering prowess or innovation.

I'm not against HD. They are Classic Americana. I personally don't like them, but I don't think that means others shouldn't. I take a lot of **** for riding a Vespa, but it is a hell of a lot easier to maneuver in SF street traffic than my R1000, and alot easier to park than either car. I would compare the industrial design of Vespa with Apple, but not the engineering. I would compare the engineering of Bimota with Apple, but not the industrial design. I would compare the brand loyalty of Harley Davidson with Apple, but not the innovation. BMW does a good job in all these areas. [/B]
Click to expand...

I don't care about the 'innovations' that you claim are being made by BMW for their bikes.

The V-Rod was a completely new design from the pavement up. They even went with a brand new engine design. If you check into the design, you will see that as being true. Others might have the same kind of items in their bikes, but Harley's design is completely new.

All of Harley's motorcycles have evolved over the past century (ok, 99 years, close enough). The closest thing that a current Harley has to the ones from the early years are two wheels, a fuel tank, and a v-twin engine. Even those items have evolved over the years.

Some may consider HD 'classic American' I consider it modern American that knows where it came from and appreciates it's customers. Name one other item that you can buy, use for 10-20+ years and get back the amount you paid for it? You can do that with a properly maintained Harley (I have seen it done). Can you do that with your beloved vw or BMW motorcycle?? I think not.
 
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Apple & Voltzwagon

Originally posted by AlphaTech


I don't care about the 'innovations' that you claim are being made by BMW for their bikes.


To be clear, I'm talking about various manufacturers who set precedents that are adopted & embraced by others for their usefulness. This is textbook innovation. I don't see big advances from HD being lauded as revolutionary, and adopted by other manufacturers (Buell excepted). Apple does things that the whole computer industry mimics:
The Mouse GUI (even if stolen from Xerox)
The LCD desktop (remember the T.A.M)
The iMac
etc.


The V-Rod was a completely new design from the pavement up.

So was the Ford Windstar, but it was so much like the Aerostar, that no one called it innovative. So was every Wintel take on the iMac.

They even went with a brand new engine design.
If you check into the design I have , you will see that as being true. Others might have the same kind of items in their bikes, but Harley's design is completely new.


Again, this is true to Harley, but not to the market in general. Ducati had a 4 valve V Twin 25 years ago, with those innovative Desmodromic valves. Harley has incorporated the innovations of more bleeding edge manufacturers, much in the way that the PC world 'adopts' technologies brought to light by Apple.

There is nothing wrong with not being innovative, if you do it right. Rolls-Royce is among the least innovative, most well respected manufacturers of rolling stock in the world. I feel that HD needs to be in the same boat.

Name one other item that you can buy, use for 10-20+ years and get back the amount you paid for it?

Swiss chronometers
Fine furniture
A good number of BMW motorcycles
Your home
McIntosh Amplifiers
Art
Leicas
Snap On Tools

...and of course, the Mac 128 from Antiques Roadshow!
 
Misc ramblings

of note:

Audi has a nice ad running (I saw it on CNN). Kind of like a compedium of great moments/innovation in Audi history. Longer than a standard ad, but with more impact. I wish this was a trend, but alas we're stuck with 24-7 "steven" ads

Ford has produced a show car that I really, really want. It's a production-capable remake of a GT-40. Saw it on some auto show site. Dee-lish!

Also, for any who haven't checked it out, go to www.BMWfilms.com. The short directed by Guy Ritchie with Madonna in it is hilarious. This from one who finds Lock, Stock and Two Smoking Barrels on his most watched DVD list.

Ok, everyone can go back to the rumble....
 
Nipsy, I don't know anything about motorcycles except that if I owned one I'd probably be dead in the time it took the thing to go from 0 to 150 mph, but it's nice to see people appreciating the finer things in the audio world as well as computers. Although I don't think that they'd make a very good comparison to Apple unless we were basing it soley on quality. I apologize to anyone here who has no idea what we're talking about.
 
Nipsy,

The only ones that I can see as valid are the house, art, and MAYBE the tools (IF you can find a buyer that would want them). Then again, both houses and art appreciate in value (even that depends on the market). I was referring mainly to items that you use day in and day out.

HD will still be producing QUALITY products long after we are all dead, burried, and worm food.

I have seen many other brands of motorcycles in the for sale listings, and ALL except HD's are at BELOW what the person paid for them. Every other motorcycle starts to depreciate the second it leaves the dealership. Same as with cars (and trucks, although 4x4 vehicles hold their value longer, just a fact).
 
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