Apple Warns UK Risks Feature Delays Under Proposed Competition Rules

[surferfb]

What's better. Having 22 kW charging at home, or a slightly less convenient connector? Good AC charging is very important for the success of electric cars. It's not only about charging at home, but also destination charging at work, hotels, car parks.

What is your evidence, that the CCS2 connector is dissuading people from buying electric cars? It can't be market share US vs. EU (10% vs. 20%). Mandating a specific connector is more beneficial for the market than having two solutions in parallel, which causes a lot more confusion and uncertainty around charging.

Note I said “wouldn’t be surprised if it had dissuaded people,” not that I had hard data, but the idea comes from the fact that my wife dislikes the connector so much that every time we’ve had to use it in a rental she says things like “thank god we don’t have to use this cable all the time, it’s awful”. It was hard enough to get her to switch to electric in the first place, that cable might have been the “nope, not doing it” last straw.

Two solutions in parallel is slightly annoying, but it easily solved with adapters until the market decides. Which it did in the US, without government regulation. And in the end, the EU is stuck with a terrible cable and won’t change it because regulators insisted on acting before the tech was ready and now they’re stuck.

Which is the situation we’d all be in had they succeeded in mandating Micro-USB like they wanted.

 

[Happy_John]

Which is the situation we’d all be in had they succeeded in mandating Micro-USB like they wanted.

It was discussed and mooted, but it wasn't wanted, and that's why it didn't succeed.

You can't gripe about something happening if it never actually happened.

"I thought about eating lunch but the end I didn't eat lunch, so why do I feel hungry?"

 

[ginkobiloba]

Also for EU users now we have more privacy tools (like the one allowing you to download all the data Apple has on you),

I’m not sure about that one. You’re aware about the upcoming ChatControl law , right ? That is one of the most privacy-violating law to ever come into being if it’s adopted by the EU .

 

[surferfb]

It was discussed and mooted, but it wasn't wanted, and that's why it didn't succeed.

You can't gripe about something happening if it never actually happened.

"I thought about eating lunch but the end I didn't eat lunch, so why do I feel hungry?"

It wasn’t “mooted” - in 2009 the EU leaned hard on manufacturers to “voluntarily” standardize on micro-USB. Fourteen major players (Apple, Nokia, Samsung, etc.) signed the Memorandum of Understanding, and for years Europe effectively froze around that standard. No one wanted to risk pushing a new connector only to have Brussels pull the rug out on the “voluntary” part. That’s why USB-C adoption actually lagged in the EU compared to other markets. The “voluntary” agreement functioned like a mandate, it created the same chilling effect on innovation even without the law on paper.

But this time the EU put the law on paper. And here is the result: if Apple unveiled an amazing new port at the keynote next week, that everyone, including the EU, saw the benefit of, AND Apple said everyone could use it royalty-free, it would still take 5-8 years before it could show up on devices in Europe because they’ve stupidly mandated a product design decision that should be left to companies.

And that’s assuming the EU wanted to change, which we’ve seen with EV charging cables, they don’t. They’ll say “we don’t care that it’s better, we already have a standard.” And then point to the fact that so many devices use the standard as to why they can’t change it.

So in the end, there won’t be a better port because there’s no financial incentive to build one that can’t be used in the EU. We’ve already seen a phone that was limited by the thickness of the port, so the EU has already made products worse with their mandate.

 

[theluggage]

The EU law about USB-C is a joke. EU ministers boast about reusing charging cables - when they don’t even understand that USBC is just a connector, and it’s the underlying USB standard used by the port that matters

At least try doing 5 minutes research before ranting:

If such equipment is capable of being recharged by wired charging at voltages higher than 5 volts, currents higher than 3 amperes, or powers higher than 15 watts, the equipment must support the full functionality of USB Power Delivery.

Radio Equipment Directive (2022) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Part of the real problem with the old MicroUSB "memorandum of understanding" (horrible connector, but it would still charge your phone) was that it didn't standardise "fast charging" and using anything other than your phone maker's proprietary charger often only gave a minimal "trickle charge". USB-C + mandatory USB PD fixes that. Making it the law prevents phone makers from cutting corners and sneaking in non-standard power supplies, and stops the "only use our own brand power supply" FUD.

...and since the whole purpose of the directive was to have a common charger the data rate issue is irrelevant. The USB-C connector is designed as a smart, multi-protocol connector, can support anything up to USB4 v2 (~TB5) or DisplayPort 2.1, and will most likely support the next generation or two of those. If you want innovation in connector design then the challenge is to add extra contacts to your "USB-D" plug while keeping it backward compatible with USB-C (as they successfully did with USB 2-USB 3).

The vast majority of phone users only use the cable for charging so, so having cheap 'charge+USB 2-only" cables (with 8 fewer wires, so less materials wasted) makes sense.

The next step in the EU plan is supposed to be forced unbundling of chargers & cables (if it doesn't happen anyway - it's already started) which should help cut down on the limited "minimum viable product" chargers bundled with phones. Instead, just buy a decent multi-port charger that will power all of your devices for the next few years, and high-speed data cables if you're likely to need them.

 

[theluggage]

That’s why USB-C adoption actually lagged in the EU compared to other markets. The “voluntary” agreement functioned like a mandate, it created the same chilling effect on innovation even without the law on paper.

Yet USB-C exists... even in the EU... your whole narrative is self-contradictory.

Meanwhile, Apple went on selling Lightning phones with the promise of an adapter, and the whole industry only did the minimum to comply with the MOU, failing to standardise on "fast charging" so the only reliable way to get more than a trickle charge was to use the propritary power brick. The point of the new law is not just the USB-C connector, but the smart USB Power Delivery protocol that comes with it and standardises >15W charging.

if Apple unveiled an amazing new port at the keynote next week

Then everybody would be rightly furious because they've already moved to USB-C for their iPad Pro and MacBook, even before the EU got involved. I don't know what amazing innovations you are expecting in the field of plugging 16 wires into a phone, but any improvement would have to be so dramatic as to outweigh the advantage of having a single, standard connector.

And that’s assuming the EU wanted to change, which we’ve seen with EV charging cables, they don’t. They’ll say “we don’t care that it’s better, we already have a standard.”

If you refuse to see the value of having a single, stable, standard connection for this sort of thing then you're never going to understand that trade-off. Meanwhile, a quick google suggests to me that the Land Of The Free is still arguing over CCS vs NACS and has a whole bunch of state-by-state rules on EV connectors, that you'd probably need to carry both CCS and NACS cables for the forseeable, and that CCS2 is still superior for charging off home AC. Plus NACS is only a "North American Standard" because Tesla decided to call it that and is kinda-sorta-open and kinda-sorta-stable subject to that nice Mr Musk's whim.

We’ve already seen a phone that was limited by the thickness of the port

Well, actually, it's also limited by the depth of the camera and the size of a decent battery - so there's a convenient camera bulge where the port could have been.
Or use wireless charging (not affected by the EU law) and take advantage ofr having an opening-free body.
Or just don't make the phone so stupidly thin that you daren't put it in your pocket and the battery life is rubbish.
Yeah, there's a chilling effect on lazy design.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

What is bizarre is that Apple - who had a leading role in creating USB-C - pushed USB-C like mad on Mac, going all-USB-C in 2016 before there was any uptake (and eventually backpedalling and restoring HDMI and MagSafe on MacBook Pros) - but kept pushing Lightning on the iPhone (and even less explicably, introduced it to the Mac 'Magic' peripherals).

It’s not bizarre. They literally said in 2013 that Lightning would be the connector for the next decade. In 2023, right on schedule, it was gone from the iPhone. What’s bizarre is that people in 2022 were wondering IF Apple would drop lightning in 2023 when they’d already said they would.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

Hahahahaaa

Steve Jobs said the lighting port was the port for iPhones for the next decade.

Guess how long it lasted? A decade.
All that law did was prohibit innovation, now we are stuck with USB C because it will be to hard to move to USB D if they ever designed it, cause at some point the C port will not be able to keep up (It might be a long time but still).

USB-C is already thicker than devices being made TODAY. Technology marches on, but regulators in the EU and some folks here are like “THERE WILL NEVER BE ANYTHING BETTER THAN USB-C!” Meanwhile, anyone that’s been watching tech for more than 5 minutes knows “There will always be something better than <whatever>.”

Whether or not that thing will be available in the EU? That’s the question. If they drop the USB-C requirement, then most certainly.

 

[The_Gream]

You clearly do not understand the law, it means if every other device had USB D or what ever it is called then Apple would be required to fit that also. So the complete opposite of what you claim.

Yes, but every company would have to change port type at or near the same time. USB C took years to become mainstream.

 

[Unregistered 4U]

You clearly do not understand the law, it means if every other device had USB D or what ever it is called then Apple would be required to fit that also. So the complete opposite of what you claim.

Your thinking is that the law says that “every device has to use what every other device is using?” without actually defining what “every other device” is required to use? Ok!

 

[surferfb]

Yet USB-C exists... even in the EU... your whole narrative is self-contradictory.

Meanwhile, Apple went on selling Lightning phones with the promise of an adapter, and the whole industry only did the minimum to comply with the MOU, failing to standardise on "fast charging" so the only reliable way to get more than a trickle charge was to use the propritary power brick. The point of the new law is not just the USB-C connector, but the smart USB Power Delivery protocol that comes with it and standardises >15W charging.


Then everybody would be rightly furious because they've already moved to USB-C for their iPad Pro and MacBook, even before the EU got involved. I don't know what amazing innovations you are expecting in the field of plugging 16 wires into a phone, but any improvement would have to be so dramatic as to outweigh the advantage of having a single, standard connector.



If you refuse to see the value of having a single, stable, standard connection for this sort of thing then you're never going to understand that trade-off. Meanwhile, a quick google suggests to me that the Land Of The Free is still arguing over CCS vs NACS and has a whole bunch of state-by-state rules on EV connectors, that you'd probably need to carry both CCS and NACS cables for the forseeable, and that CCS2 is still superior for charging off home AC. Plus NACS is only a "North American Standard" because Tesla decided to call it that and is kinda-sorta-open and kinda-sorta-stable subject to that nice Mr Musk's whim.


Well, actually, it's also limited by the depth of the camera and the size of a decent battery - so there's a convenient camera bulge where the port could have been.
Or use wireless charging (not affected by the EU law) and take advantage ofr having an opening-free body.
Or just don't make the phone so stupidly thin that you daren't put it in your pocket and the battery life is rubbish.
Yeah, there's a chilling effect on lazy design.

I am not arguing standardization has no value, just that hard-coding it into law is stupid and chills innovation. And if standardization is the end-all, be-all, why stop at ports? It'd be easier for developers if every phone had the same screen size and resolution, so let's mandate that. Consumers could re-use cases if all phones had identical dimensions and buttons in the same place, and that harms the environment, so why don't we lock that into law too? Lots of people complain they can't take their apps if they switch from iOS to Android, so let's mandate all phones have to run the same OS. Why let's just let the EU design everything, since they clearly think they know better than tech companies!

The fact of the matter is that the EU’s own data shows that in 2018, over half of phones sold in Europe still used micro-USB, years after Android phones elsewhere had switched to USB-C. That was under a voluntary agreement. Today's law is much stricter. Oppo has already run into the physical limits of USB-C. That's not a hypothetical; it happened. Apple was also clearly moving to USB-C; not as fast as some liked, but it was happening without legislation. Industry are better hardware engineers than regulators, and the free market should be making those decisions, not bureaucrats who thought making all phones use micro-USB was a good idea.

Remember that even if a better port were invented tomorrow, and everyone knew it was better and wanted it - including you, every phone manufacturer, and the EU regulators themselves, the EU's own process means it would take 5-8 years before it could legally replace USB-C in phones. Who in their right mind is going to front hundreds of millions of dollars to design a better port when it won't be able to be used in the EU, and even if they convince regulators it is worth switching to (regulators who again have shown over and over again in recent history to reject better designs because a worse standard already exists), they'll have to run different production lines for EU phones for the better part of a decade? It completely destroys the ROI of developing a new port, so it's not going to happen.

How can you look at that and argue with a straight face that it doesn't chill innovation?

 

[Pezimak]

Your thinking is that the law says that “every device has to use what every other device is using?” without actually defining what “every other device” is required to use? Ok!

Simple report on it here from a quick google:

New iPhone, new charger: Apple bends to EU rules

A European Union law will require portable devices to have a common charger by 2024.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[kcwookie]

For example you can have free speech in the EU except if someone takes offence or you state a right wing opinion.

If you look, that is the way things are now and have been in the USA. Words have been banned and there are filters on most websites to control conversations due to concerns about people being offended. The USA is not a bastion of much of anything free. Frankly, I'm surprised that the word **** is now fairly universally accepted. It didn't used to be. It is the exception. I spoke too soon, but it proves my point.

Free speech is messy and always has been. People want the right to offend others but reserve the right to not be offended. The problem is there is nothing I can do or say that offends you if you choose not to be offended. So many people get offended at the drop of a character so being offended doesn't mean anything.

I'm in favor of free speech including all the warts and wounds. Free speech is honesty, it shows the world who you are.

 

[theluggage]

They literally said in 2013 that Lightning would be the connector for the next decade.

...which was a bit of marketing puff at the launch that everybody forgot about until now - when it suddenly means "we will stop using Lightning in 2023".

And if standardization is the end-all, be-all, why stop at ports?

Ah, yes, the good old "slippery slope" fallacy...

The fact of the matter is that the EU’s own data shows that in 2018, over half of phones sold in Europe still used micro-USB, years after Android phones elsewhere had switched to USB-C.

So... nearly half of the phones in the EU in 2018 didn't use MicroUSB. Hint - the iPhone market share in Europe is a lot less than 50% so a big chunk of that remainder must have been using USB-C. I didn't notice any delay in USB-C phones like the Google Pixel appearing in the UK (which was still in the EU then).

Remember that even if a better port were invented tomorrow, and everyone knew it was better and wanted it

...then, if it was so wonderful, they'd go ahead and make it for the hundreds of millions of potential customers who aren't in the EU.

they'll have to run different production lines for EU phones for the better part of a decade?

...just like they already have to do for many products that face different regulations in different countries. Heck, by that argument you shouldn't be able to buy anything newer than a model T ford in a country that drives on the left-hand side of the road. Apple already make different power bricks and a dozen different keyboard layouts (and I mean different layouts with differences in key positions, not just different labels). Any one of North America, China, India or Japan is big enough to sustain a new product if it's really so much better. At which point the EU will be facing demands to update the rule.

Oppo has already run into the physical limits of USB-C.

Would that be the super-slim phone 'as thin as USB-C will allow' where we are just supposed to ignore the massive fugly camera bulge into which a USB-C port could easily have been incorporated? Which has wireless charging (so they could have just left out the USB-C port and not been affected by the EU regs)? Which wouldn't survive more than 10 minutes in a trouser pocket if it were any thinner?

If the law has a "chilling effect" on this sort of terrible form-over-function design then count me in.

 

[surferfb]

Ah, yes, the good old "slippery slope" fallacy...

It's not "slippery slope", it's a question. Why should we just stop at charging port? It's an honest question. I bet throwing away phone cases is a much bigger environmental problem than changing charging cables, and probably costs customers more to boot. Why shouldn't the EU mandate device dimensions?

My issue isn't with USB-C. I prefer USB-C over lightening. But that doesn't change the fact that mandating it is stupid and chills progress, just like mandating device dimensions would be stupid and would chill progress.

So... nearly half of the phones in the EU in 2018 didn't use MicroUSB. Hint - the iPhone market share in Europe is a lot less than 50% so a big chunk of that remainder must have been using USB-C. I didn't notice any delay in USB-C phones like the Google Pixel appearing in the UK (which was still in the EU then).

Yes, but they had the option because it was "voluntary." Making it mandated completely and massively changes the calculus and ROI. And remember, even the voluntary standard slowed the transition to USB-C. This is hard coded in now.

...then, if it was so wonderful, they'd go ahead and make it for the hundreds of millions of potential customers who aren't in the EU.

...just like they already have to do for many products that face different regulations in different countries. Heck, by that argument you shouldn't be able to buy anything newer than a model T ford in a country that drives on the left-hand side of the road. Apple already make different power bricks and a dozen different keyboard layouts (and I mean different layouts with differences in key positions, not just different labels). Any one of North America, China, India or Japan is big enough to sustain a new product if it's really so much better. At which point the EU will be facing demands to update the rule.

Ports aren’t like power bricks or keyboards; they define the whole chassis and accessory ecosystem, so no OEM is going to run dual SKUs on something so vital for a market as big as the EU for the better part of the decade. That means the EU standard effectively becomes the global standard, and as we've established even if the rest of the world embraced a better port tomorrow and the EU regulators agreed, Brussels’ own process would delay it 5–8 years. And worse, it won't get designed in the first place BECAUSE manufacturers know the regulation makes a better port commercially pointless.

What will actually happen is the port will go away entirely, and then the same people who demanded USB-C will complain “how dare greedy Apple remove the port, they’re just doing it to sell MagSafe chargers and AirPods" even though it's physically impossible to include a USB-C port on that version of the iPhone. And who knows, maybe the EU will even launch an investigation: “yes, the law says portless devices are fine, but we meant for small devices, and in the EU, you must go by the "spirit of the law" not the letter of the law, and the spirit of the law is clearly that all phones should have USB-C, so let’s ban the device and fine Apple.”

Would that be the super-slim phone 'as thin as USB-C will allow' where we are just supposed to ignore the massive fugly camera bulge into which a USB-C port could easily have been incorporated? Which has wireless charging (so they could have just left out the USB-C port and not been affected by the EU regs)? Which wouldn't survive more than 10 minutes in a trouser pocket if it were any thinner?

If the law has a "chilling effect" on this sort of terrible form-over-function design then count me in.

The Verge: "If foldable phones are going to get meaningfully thinner, USB-C has to go first." But no, you're right, I guess USB-C is the first tech product in history that can't possibly be improved or be made smaller.

Look, we’re not going to agree here, so I am going to stop engaging. I’ll just sum up by saying: hard-coding USB-C into law creates a chilling effect on innovation; the EU’s own data shows how their micro-USB push slowed USB-C adoption; Oppo’s already hit the physical limit of USB-C; and even if a better port came along tomorrow, the EU’s process would delay it 5–8 years. You see those as acceptable trade-offs to mandate something that was already happening without regulation. I don’t.

 

[theluggage]

The Verge: "If foldable phones are going to get meaningfully thinner, USB-C has to go first."

Or make it wireless. That's the port sorted. The huge camera bulge that actually sets the minimum thickness is obviously hidden somewhere under the elephant in the room.

 

[BaldiMac]

If you look, that is the way things are now and have been in the USA. Words have been banned and there are filters on most websites to control conversations due to concerns about people being offended. The USA is not a bastion of much of anything free. Frankly, I'm surprised that the word **** is now fairly universally accepted. It didn't used to be. It is the exception. I spoke too soon, but it proves my point.

Free speech is messy and always has been. People want the right to offend others but reserve the right to not be offended. The problem is there is nothing I can do or say that offends you if you choose not to be offended. So many people get offended at the drop of a character so being offended doesn't mean anything.

I'm in favor of free speech including all the warts and wounds. Free speech is honesty, it shows the world who you are.

Free speech does not mean and has never meant that other people have to promote speech that they disagree with. Choosing what speech I want to promote is an example of free speech!

You want to say offensive crap? Do it on your own website on your own server, and you are good to go.

 

[MilaM]

And in the end, the EU is stuck with a terrible cable and won’t change it because regulators insisted on acting before the tech was ready and now they’re stuck.

The car industry had long agreed to go with CCS2 before the EU started to promote it. I think you must have a very distorted idea about how the EU works in this regard. There are consultations with stakeholders for months if not years before a consensus is reached. If you need to blame anyone for the CCS2 plug, it should be the car industry. But that's not nearly as much fun as blaming the EU of course.

In the meantime, have fun dealing with multiple adapters (dongles) with your next electric car rental.

 

[surferfb]

The car industry had long agreed to go with CCS2 before the EU started to promote it. I think you must have a very distorted idea about how the EU works in this regard. There are consultations with stakeholders for months if not years before a consensus is reached. If you need to blame anyone for the CCS2 plug, it should be the car industry. But that's not nearly as much fun as blaming the EU of course.

In the meantime, have fun dealing with multiple adapters (dongles) with your next electric car rental.

Yes, it’s true the automakers pushed CCS2 first, but the critical point is that the EU locked it in by law. Once Brussels mandated CCS2 for all public fast-chargers, Europe lost the ability to pivot if something better came along.

In contrast, the U.S. didn’t regulate connectors, and now the industry is voluntarily moving to NACS because it’s technically superior. Sure there’s some growing pains in the near term, but the US ended up With the superior tech.

That’s the risk of regulators picking winners too early: you get stuck with a bulky compromise, and when innovation arrives, switching costs are so high that the market is effectively frozen.

Pretty good analogy for a government that wanted to lock everyone into micro-USB AFTER they had already seen Lightening. I will never understand why that isn’t immediately disqualifying for the idea of government choosing the charging connector. You realize you’d have been using micro-USB for the past decade if the EU had gotten their way, right?

 

[Tr55]

I'm in favor of free speech including all the warts and wounds. Free speech is honesty, it shows the world who you are.

Sounds like you’re a free speech absolutist 😱

 

[CarlJ]

We would not have USB C on iPhones if it wasn’t for EU anti competition laws for instance.

Yes we would have. The Lightning standard was designed using lessons from the 30-pin connector, to have about a ten year lifespan. It got about that. They would have switched to USB-C anyway (it wasn't available back when they designed Lightning, and was heavily influenced by Lightning), the most the EU did was maybe push up deployment by a year or so. Stop patting yourself on the back.

 

[CarlJ]

Better to shoot yourself in the foot than in the head, because you live in a country where big tech companies have no rules at all and they can do whatever they want with your data without your consent ...

You know Apple has been pushing privacy restrictions on developers for a long time, right? That didn't start with the EU, though I'm glad they are pushing for more privacy.

 

[MilaM]

Yes, it’s true the automakers pushed CCS2 first, but the critical point is that the EU locked it in by law. Once Brussels mandated CCS2 for all public fast-chargers, Europe lost the ability to pivot if something better came along.

There is no EU law prohibiting other charging standards for electric cars. The car industry locked one standard in because they deemed it to be technically a good and future-proof solution. When Tesla introduced the Model 3 on the market, it came with CCS2 from the beginning. They had a chance to stick to their proprietary plug, but decided against it.

Pretty good analogy for a government that wanted to lock everyone into micro-USB AFTER they had already seen Lightening. I will never understand why that isn’t immediately disqualifying for the idea of government choosing the charging connector. You realize you’d have been using micro-USB for the past decade if the EU had gotten their way, right?

So much hyperbole 🙄. First, it did not happen, for good reasons. I would also not be happy with Micro-USB as a universal charging standard, to be clear. If you look at EU legislation from a high level, they try to avoid baking technical standards into law whenever possible. This kind of details work is usually delegated to standard bodies that are organised and paid for by the industry. The USB-C mandate is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Abazigal]

Still waiting for usb c to come to televisions. I am surprised that nobody has petitioned the EU yet to look into this area. 😏

 

[MilaM]

Still waiting for usb c to come to televisions. I am surprised that nobody has petitioned the EU yet to look into this area. 😏

If it has a rechargeable battery, it should have it. Otherwise, it's not covered by the law at all. The mandate is about charging standards, not about how devices are powered from mains power.