As someone with a link, Milanese leather loop and sport band, that's all I'm worried about
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Apple Watch Gen 2 Buy Back?
- Thread starter PowermacG5
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As someone with a link, Milanese leather loop and sport band, that's all I'm worried about
I would say that this seems logical, but all one has to point to is the original iPhone to 3GS and original iPad to iPad 2. The only thing that could be utilized between the two were some 30-pin accessories, but even the docks were not compatible.
Ultimately, Apple is not going to alter the design of the 2nd gen watch to accommodate those who bought straps for the original first gen product. The strap compatibility only applies to the product being sold, and I'm hard pressed to think of an example where this has not always been the case. If Apple wants to alter the 2nd gen watch shape, even slightly such that the case is a little bit wider at the connection point, or whatever, then the 1st gen bands won't fit.
I hate to sound cavalier, but Apple already has first gen watch owners money. They don't really care about getting it again so soon after the original purchase, but rather expanding the adoption and purchase of the watch year after year. The watch isn't going to make or break over 2-4 million unit sales year after year, unless those same 2-4 million customers are the only ones buying the watch.
I'm not saying this won't be an important consideration for Apple when designing the 2nd gen watch, especially if it doesn't come close to selling the projected 15-20 million watches. But this kind of thing has never really stopped them before. The reality is the 2nd gen watch was already being designed before the first gen watch was released, and already exists in close to its final form now in order to hit a target sale date a where close to the April or May of next year. If Apple was confident in the success of the watch, then the 2nd gen watch will incorporate physical changes to make it distinct from the 1st gen watch, just like every other 2nd gen product from Apple, which incorporates knowledge they gained in designing the original model as well as advancements and refinements not available in the original model. If those changes affect case width, in particular then you can bet the old bands won't fit the new watch.
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Everything you stated was obvious and not something I disputed, just saying I'd like for the bands to still be compatible
The only counter point I would offer is that Apple seems to have adopted a pattern of keeping the same physical case across both 'initial' and 'S' version of the phones over the last few generations. That suggests that the second gen Watch will have the same chassis as the first.
Indeed, since battery life seems to be a bugbear to non-owners (people with the watch tend to find it isn't really an issue) I would expect the case to retain its gen 1 shape so Apple can fit a (same physical size but) greater capacity battery in it.
Indeed, since battery life seems to be a bugbear to non-owners (people with the watch tend to find it isn't really an issue) I would expect the case to retain its gen 1 shape so Apple can fit a (same physical size but) greater capacity battery in it.
Why should this be the case? What about people who don't yet have an Apple watch? Apple needs to offer the best product to remain competitive, even though there are fewer options with the watch being an iPhone accessory. I bet very few of their customers buy every release of a product. It's an incorrect assumption on this site that every release has to be significant enough to warrant an upgrade, or that the spend needs to be palatable. Many here spend thousands every year on a new MacBook. What's $500 - $1K on a new watch?
Or even more. Why not 3, 4 or even 5 years?
Internal upgrades are unnecessary because every time you buy a new phone the watch gets an external upgrade.
That's the beauty of the watch being somewhat dependent on the phone and able to hand-off large chunks of processing and communications with the rest of the world, to the phone.
Except Apple has never launched a first gen mobile product that remained the same when the gen 2 product was released a year later. Not the iPod, not the iPhone, and not the iPad. And there's a reason for that, during the development of the product they discover things too late in the process to implement them before the rush to make the ship date. In almost every case of the former mobile products, the 2nd gen product was much better designed, better engineered, and much more stylish than the 1st gen model. And there's plenty of areas for improvement on the Watch.
Not only that but Apple surely wants to drop the price as fast as possible to get the thing onto as many customers wrists as possible. The best way to do that is introduce a new flagship model. The 5c is a perfect example of what appears to be Apple's current thinking on the matter, when the 5S came out, the 5 was repackaged, counter to every model before it. We're on the cusp of seeing how Apple handles the 6S, but it seems likely they won't just bump the 6 down a notch as is, and create potential cannibalism from the 6S. But if Apple follows this pattern, they will have to redesign the Watch for gen 2.
And arguably the watch is under even more pressure to upgrade every year to keep up with fashion trends, which has been a major component to Apple's marketing of the device.
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True, but they could in theory implement a drastic re-design of the Watch case but keep the same band connectors, as long as they don't change the width. They still have a long way to go into making the case so thin that the current connectors are too thick for it.
I don't see the relevance of this. Apple could sell the same chassis with uprated internals, or produce a new and different looking chassis if the look of the watch is identified as a blocker for potential buyers. Given that they seem to be operating a more JIT approach with the watch there are unlikely to be stock piles of devices to shift once the new product becomes available. The only reason to keep the gen 1 device would be to provide a lower entry price point, if that is what you are saying?
Given the trend for big watches at the moment, and the calls for a bigger Apple Watch by some people, I don't think they need to rush out a thinner or substantially different looking watch. I would also point out that, in the watch world, premium brands keep the same watches cases available for decades with minor cosmetic variation.
The bigger concern for potential buyer seems to be battery life, so improving that with a small boost in processor power would seem to be the most likely increment for the next gen.
I'm assuming you aren't married, or have a girlfriend. Whether someone buys a whole host of matching accessories to match a primary product, be it a dress or a watch, usually has no bearing on whether they will be able to use them with the next outfit, or upgrade.
Apple has never shown any concern for keeping things like this static if their design requirements dictate otherwise. Fashion is a primary component for this device, and as such, fashion will dictate what they do. When Apple changed from the 5S to the 6, were they at all concerned that people who bought the 5S were going to have to buy brand new accessories to fit the 6? And I've seen people buy multiple cases (women in particular) to coordinate with their phones -- some of them quite expensive. Yet, they all get thrown out the day after they buy their 6.
The band connector may or may not change, but it won't be because Apple is concerned they won't be able to sell the new versions to the customers who already bought the first, because their bands won't fit model to model.
Married 8 years, and I have a daughter. I'll ignore the inherent sexism of your post and just tackle the issue you present.
I'm not talking about Apple being concerned with Gen1 adopters and the bands they've purchased, that's over and done with. Apple is concerned with Gen2 adopters not buying bands. If people think something will have less value year over year, they will be less likely to spend on it. If someone thinks their band won't work with Apple Watch 3, 4, 5 etc., then Apple will lose sales. Not ALL sales, but some.
Fashion changes from year to year, but not to the extent that people will plan to buy new watch bands every single year. Most customers will probably buy an average of 1.8 bands, the one coming in the box included.
You seem to assume people (women?) throw all financial considerations to the wind when purchasing "fashion" products. Maybe some do, but you can't make that assumption on a large scale. Certainly Apple at least keeps their phone cases consistent from X to Xs generations.
Without some reasonable technological justification for changing the adapter, Apple will leave it alone. It seems there are two kinds of people in these forums who don't get Apple 1) people who think Apple is a miserly money grabber which will screw over their customers for a dime and nobody who buys their stuff thinks more than a half second about that fact and 2) people who think Apple is a magical gift elf which will give early adopters discounts and trade-ins if they pray to Steve Jobs regularly enough. Apple is neither: it is an company which cultivates a relationship with customers, knowing which things it can get away with charging for and which things would ruin that relationship.
What's the presumed benefit from changing the adapter anyway? Even if Gen2 customers buy the same number of bands, that move would split the customer base in half for each band model. It just sounds too stupid to make sense if you're thinking rationally.
I'm not talking about Apple being concerned with Gen1 adopters and the bands they've purchased, that's over and done with. Apple is concerned with Gen2 adopters not buying bands. If people think something will have less value year over year, they will be less likely to spend on it. If someone thinks their band won't work with Apple Watch 3, 4, 5 etc., then Apple will lose sales. Not ALL sales, but some.
Fashion changes from year to year, but not to the extent that people will plan to buy new watch bands every single year. Most customers will probably buy an average of 1.8 bands, the one coming in the box included.
You seem to assume people (women?) throw all financial considerations to the wind when purchasing "fashion" products. Maybe some do, but you can't make that assumption on a large scale. Certainly Apple at least keeps their phone cases consistent from X to Xs generations.
Without some reasonable technological justification for changing the adapter, Apple will leave it alone. It seems there are two kinds of people in these forums who don't get Apple 1) people who think Apple is a miserly money grabber which will screw over their customers for a dime and nobody who buys their stuff thinks more than a half second about that fact and 2) people who think Apple is a magical gift elf which will give early adopters discounts and trade-ins if they pray to Steve Jobs regularly enough. Apple is neither: it is an company which cultivates a relationship with customers, knowing which things it can get away with charging for and which things would ruin that relationship.
What's the presumed benefit from changing the adapter anyway? Even if Gen2 customers buy the same number of bands, that move would split the customer base in half for each band model. It just sounds too stupid to make sense if you're thinking rationally.
You can cry sexism all you like, the fact is women drive the fashion and accessory business. And yes, they are most likely going to spend money on matching accessories for every outfit they buy.
All I have to do is point to the first gen iPod, iPhone and iPad -- none of the accessories made for it fit the model released just one year later, as Apple substantially altered the designs. Apple took away the 30-pin docking connector to reclaim space most customers would have gladly sacrificed if it didn't mean replacing their entire collection of compatible docking accessories, and likely giving them better battery life. So no Apple isn't concerned with the relationship they have with the customer when it comes to designing their products. Rather, the relationship with their customers is based on delighting them with their designs, rather than preserving specific features, no matter how ubiquitous.
And you said it yourself, Apple has sold the watch and moved on. Why would they care whether customers who own the old watch can update their bands once they've moved on. When has Apple ever continued making accessories for a discontinued product? Apple's not in the watch band business. They're in the business of making their core products attractive to their customers. It's stupid to think Apple would limit their design parameters by continuing to support a design feature merely because they want to continue selling the same watch bands to as many customers as possible. With that logic Apple would have never discontinued the 30-pin dock connector.
A great follow-up entices upgrades, not a buy back. A buy back is a function of a company coming out with a crappy product that sours customers & wants to lure them back. AW is less than perfect but it's not a terrible products to that degree.
If you like v2 so much that you must have it then eBay or Gazelle at market value.
If you like v2 so much that you must have it then eBay or Gazelle at market value.
There's a substantial difference in telling someone that they're sub $100 dock doesn't work with their phone anymore, but their old cable does, and telling someone that their $450 stainless steel link band is useless if they want to upgrade. With the iPhone 3g, the connector was the same, the physical dimensions of the phone were different.
Apple doesn't have to offer a buy back program, but they'd be losing on some sales and creating some serious ill will if they quickly change the band adapter. I'm confident they won't. I see the band connector staying the same for at least the next two iterations of the Apple Watch. And that's if Apple decides to come out with yearly iterations.
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This is factually incorrect, as they still retained the same 30-pin connector, and cables are considered accessories just like any others.
Does that mean Apple will also have to offer the exact same finish for the second generation? This argument just doesn't hold water. When a person buys a watch in a jewelry store, they aren't expecting the band to fit the next watch they buy. I'm fully expecting Apple to support multiple pairings by the time the second gen watch arrives to encourage ownership of multiple watches, just the way many current watch wearers own many watches to coordinate with outfits, and change up the routine.
If a customer wants to upgrade to the 2nd gen watch after shelling out over $1,000 they aren't going to be deterred because their $450 band won't work with the new watch. It's also not going to deter them from buying the new $450 band that fits the new watch, which you can be darned sure will not look just like last year's model. Apple has always given a customer many reasons to upgrade. They are in the business of selling new products, not supporting old ones, or rewarding early adopters. I say this as an original iPhone owner who paid $200 more than customers did just a few months later, and was placated with a $100 Apple Store gift card.
As for my analogy to iPhones, I'm not suggesting it's just one $50 dock, it's all of the accessories people buy over the life of their product -- stereos with docks built in, car docks, additional cables, dedicated devices like card readers. It's not hard to rack up $450 worth of accessories for an iDevice, all of which have to be chunked with the switch to Lightening. Likewise for cases, and covers, and other accessories which fit a specific device. I bought an iPhone 4S, and the iPhone 5 instantly rendered useless my $140 waterproof case for it, if I were to upgrade. This is no different than your watch band scenario, and it's a lot more relevant because it's a product that is expected to be upgraded, which uses accessories that one expects to migrate from model to model, unlike the watch -- a device for which that expectation has never been associated.
Apple doesn't even have to release a Watch at all. We're talking about reasonable business practices, not obligations owed.
And they aren't expecting it to be able to send cash to their friends, or track their workouts and heart rate either. People need to jettison expectations based on traditional watches (and to an extent traditional technology). Apple wants to expand their user base, not alienate their customers. Bands were not something that you could change out previously. Apple changed that, and I fully expect them to not suddenly throw that innovation out of the window. Alternatively, it makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint. Why would Apple want to fully replace ALL of the current bands they sell for a new watch. It saves them money to keep them in production, and slowly introduce new types of bands.
Says who? I'm one of those customers that shelled out over $1000. I'll be more hesitant in buying the second gen if NONE of my extra bands work on the next version. If I choose to upgrade anyway, I would be less willing to buy extra bands.
Apple doesn't really have a vested interest in third party accessory support. Apple manufactures and sells bands for the Apple Watch. It makes no sense for them to just abandon sales by introducing a new connector each year.
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And yet, Apple has never been concerned with this before. Every model, new docks that don't fit the old models, new covers that don't fit the old ones. If Apple truly wanted to make a killing of the accessory market which you seem to suggest they do, then they will never change anything, it's best of the customer and allowing them to sell Apple branded accessories to customers who haven't bought a new product in years, or give customers who upgrade to the new model no incentive whatsoever to buy new watch bands.
They wouldn't be supporting third party bands if they wanted to have a monopoly in this department and make a killing. They appear to be perfectly content selling however many of their own bands at the price points they have chosen, and allowing third party bands to drive Apple Watch sales.
I have a feeling the bands will be compatible for at least a few generations. I am willing to wager with 100% certainty that Gen 2 will use the same bands at least. Otherwise, if they keep changing every year, people are just not going to pony up so much money for them.
Even with iPhones, Apple makes sure you can use the same case at least 2 years. Though with bands its different because some of them cost $150 or $450 versus the $30-$50 people usually spend on a case. Also, unlike cases, people tend to buy multiple bands. It's a much bigger investment.
I personally bought the Milanese loop band for $150 because I figured its something I can keep even as I upgrade/change the watch over the years. If Apple makes you re-buy all your bands every year by arbitrarily changing the connector for no good reason, then I will probably just get generic knock offs on eBay/Amazon in the future.
Even with iPhones, Apple makes sure you can use the same case at least 2 years. Though with bands its different because some of them cost $150 or $450 versus the $30-$50 people usually spend on a case. Also, unlike cases, people tend to buy multiple bands. It's a much bigger investment.
I personally bought the Milanese loop band for $150 because I figured its something I can keep even as I upgrade/change the watch over the years. If Apple makes you re-buy all your bands every year by arbitrarily changing the connector for no good reason, then I will probably just get generic knock offs on eBay/Amazon in the future.
The problem with this argument is that Apple isn't in the watch band business. They make accessories for their products to offer a complete package, to show third parties how it should be done. Apple encourages the third party market. It's those vendors who stand to profit the most from Apple updating it's designs more frequently, as you illustrated with your threat to take your business elsewhere. I contend Apple doesn't care what happens after you've purchased your watch. If you wanna buy their bands, or their case, or their dock, great. That's not where they are making their money. If it were, they wouldn't have opened up the watch bands to third parties, and they wouldn't have failed to release lightning docks for use with the iPhone 5.
I almost always buy Apple branded accessories because I like the look and quality of them. If I want a Milanese band for my watch, I'm going to buy the band that makes me the happiest, especially since I'm going to be wearing it everyday. And a cheap knockoff won't do that for me personally. And frankly, once the third party bands hit the shelves, most people are going to buy those for their extra bands, not only because they are cheaper, but because they will almost certainly incorporate a much larger variety of styles and designs. But where quality counts they are going to look at Apple, or other quality vendors. Whether the band is compatible with future watches or not is irrelevant to what makes a person happy in the moment.
In fact this argument can be applied to the watch itself. Would anyone buy the watch if they knew the next generation was going to be completely different? Of course. Just like the first generation of the iPod, iPod Touch, iPhone, iPad and iPad mini, all sold very well, even though there's a clear history of Apple dramatically changing the 2nd gen models dramatically after only a year. And the watch will likely be no different. In fact more so, because it is an actual fashion item that will likely need more frequent refreshes.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that the second gen watch won't keep the same band attachment mechanism. But I think it's foolish to assume that Apple would make this a priority if they decided to radically update the design for the next model, especially since they never have in the past. In fact, I suspect the first gen watch bands will fit the second gen watch attachment points, even if the 2nd gen watch is wider or narrower. Apple has invested too much into this system to radically redesign it after the first generation. The only difference is your old bands may stick out past the sides, or recess below them. But the height and connection points will most likely remain the same.
I'm rooting for a watch only option as well. I already have several straps and no need for more useless straps. Maybe for 2nd gen, they should also offer a literal watch only, as in no straps, no charger, no charging cable. I've already got enough wires, don't need to add to the clutter. And since it'll be 2nd gen, all those watch chargers and straps are already well in stock anyways, so no one is left without a complete watch. Plus, wouldn't it simplify inventory logistics to sell every component separately? Given Tim's logistics expertise, wouldn't he want to consider such an option?