chrishawes
macrumors member
You do not have to start the app first or unlock your watch.
You configure the app you want to start at depth (either Depth or Oceanic+) – then just dive and it’ll start the app.
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Apple Watch Ultra looks like stand alone dive computer. No air integration?
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You configure the app you want to start at depth (either Depth or Oceanic+) – then just dive and it’ll start the app.
I've seen this a few times- we actually have no idea how deep the (hardware) depth sensor is rated to, but it's likely significantly deeper than 130'. Apple created the 130' limit in software to control what the watch can be used for (recreational diving), and it's unlikely that hardware specs are responsible.
Almost all dive computers (including watch form-factor & low cost models) can be used as computers below 130' – the most commonly used sensor components do function below that depth. It's unlikely that Apple would have sourced a lower-specced sensor. It's possible that watch-size sensors are not even readily sourced, that are limited to that depth.
The good news- most likely a software update could unlock deeper functionality. The bad news- Apple is unlikely to do that, because it wants the product to be used for recreational diving only.
PADI standards:
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Yes, I think you're right, it seems pretty at the occasional holiday diver - perhaps who uses it for other sports and might rent the app for a long weekend or something. (You could pretty much buy a secondhand dive computer for the yearly cost of the app.)
I think a better way to put it would be that it’s aimed at the vast majority of divers. Although I was certified as a teenager, I’ve never dived much below 100’, and there’s never been a year I dived in more than four of its months, at which point the subscription fee is 1/2 annual, and quite competitive, considering convenience factors. So- “seasonal” as opposed to “occasional.”
Fair point. In my particular bit of the diving world I've yet to see someone using one on a dive but we're probably not representative of the majority of qualified divers worldwide.
The problem with that is not the limit per say. It's that it completely locks up past the limit. I'm an occasional rec diver. On one of my trips, we dove a wreck at 37m. I've done wall dives where it would be very easy to go below 40m by accident. I can see all sorts of alarms if you exceed 40m. But the app actually locks up and won't even display safety things like ascent rates. It will also force a 24hr surface interval before it can be used again.
rehkram
macrumors 65816
PADI divemaster (ret'd) just chiming in. Man, this 'Ultra as dive computer' could be a can of worms for Apple without serious study & understanding of dive physics. Not only that, an understanding of all the everyday diving 'use cases' that people get into (good or bad) as they gain experience.
In other words, experienced divers know full well that yes, time, depth and tank pressure are all, of course, essential. But that's just three elements in a very complex tapestry of data that divers have to parse and understand to maintain full situational awareness.
'Recreational' divers come in all shapes, sizes and experience levels. Many will routinely 'push the limits'. Safety stops are advisable at 10 feet for all divers. Multi-leveling your way back up from depth could save your life, or kill you if you run out of air.
My favorite dive computer was brick called The Edge. It drew a little pixel bar graph of your dive profile, with time on the x-axis and depth on the y-axis. A parabolic line showed the limit of your theoretical tissue loading. No air integration, that's what your pressure gauge was for. Time remaining at one's current time and depth was constantly updating as time and depth changed. Fabulous for deeper dives, scooters and multi leveling. That was the data I needed back in the 1980s
Until the Ultra h/w and its available s/w can provide that degree of sophistication I wouldn't advise anyone to even call it a dive computer. It's a watch with a depth gauge. Diving is, and always will be, fun. But it's got to be treated as "serious fun". Jacking another feature into a watch without a deep understanding of the issues doesn't strike me as wise.
In other words, experienced divers know full well that yes, time, depth and tank pressure are all, of course, essential. But that's just three elements in a very complex tapestry of data that divers have to parse and understand to maintain full situational awareness.
'Recreational' divers come in all shapes, sizes and experience levels. Many will routinely 'push the limits'. Safety stops are advisable at 10 feet for all divers. Multi-leveling your way back up from depth could save your life, or kill you if you run out of air.
My favorite dive computer was brick called The Edge. It drew a little pixel bar graph of your dive profile, with time on the x-axis and depth on the y-axis. A parabolic line showed the limit of your theoretical tissue loading. No air integration, that's what your pressure gauge was for. Time remaining at one's current time and depth was constantly updating as time and depth changed. Fabulous for deeper dives, scooters and multi leveling. That was the data I needed back in the 1980s
Until the Ultra h/w and its available s/w can provide that degree of sophistication I wouldn't advise anyone to even call it a dive computer. It's a watch with a depth gauge. Diving is, and always will be, fun. But it's got to be treated as "serious fun". Jacking another feature into a watch without a deep understanding of the issues doesn't strike me as wise.
WADR, while there are limitations to the AWU, you are seriously overblowing it. A dive computer is not rocket science. It is software that takes depth and time and apply an algorithm. Apple provided a device with a depth sensor and a thermometer. By all accounts, the depth sensor is quite accurate. And they did not write the computer software. They went to Oceanic, which knows a thing or two about dive computer software. Review after review shows that within it's known limitation, it is as capable as any other dive computer.
Would I buy an AWU AS a dive computer? No, there are better, cheaper options out there. But If I'm going to buy the watch, as a watch, I'll add the subscription to the Oceanic+ app.
Would I buy an AWU AS a dive computer? No, there are better, cheaper options out there. But If I'm going to buy the watch, as a watch, I'll add the subscription to the Oceanic+ app.
rehkram
macrumors 65816
Yep. I freely admit I haven't looked closely into the Oceanic+ app. If it can do what my Edge helped me do a few times, i.e. on-the-fly multi level dives (rescue, search and recovery) without getting me bent, good on them.
And actually, the algorithm for calculating the various human body tissue types (fat is the slowest to equalize BTW) levels of nitrogen saturation is somewhat close to rocket science. This should only become an issue when a diver, me in this case, has to break out of a so-called recreational planned dive profile due to unforeseen circumstances.
If that seems overblown to you, you've probably never been the trip leader when a diver disappears in deep water, or been called to testify at the resulting coroner's inquest afterwards.
If you're interested I'd be happy to give you the details over a beer sometime. Not on a public forum though.
BTW, the "better and cheaper options" on the back deck in my day were the early Suuntos 🙄 which initially looked promising yet proved to be consistently floodable plastic toys. "Cheaper" is not a parameter anyone's considering when the effluent hits the fan underwater and your screen is blank. I fully expect the Suuntos have improved since then, I've always had a lot of respect for Finnish engineering in general.
Also, I forgot to mention, you could use the Edge to manage your surface interval time after you got out of the water. You could see how long you needed to off-gas before the next dive you were considering. This was pretty handy when doing three dives a day. I'm not seeing that in the Ultra specs.
Tim Cook, give me a call and I'd be delighted to go on a dive trip with you to discuss.
And actually, the algorithm for calculating the various human body tissue types (fat is the slowest to equalize BTW) levels of nitrogen saturation is somewhat close to rocket science. This should only become an issue when a diver, me in this case, has to break out of a so-called recreational planned dive profile due to unforeseen circumstances.
If that seems overblown to you, you've probably never been the trip leader when a diver disappears in deep water, or been called to testify at the resulting coroner's inquest afterwards.
If you're interested I'd be happy to give you the details over a beer sometime. Not on a public forum though.
BTW, the "better and cheaper options" on the back deck in my day were the early Suuntos 🙄 which initially looked promising yet proved to be consistently floodable plastic toys. "Cheaper" is not a parameter anyone's considering when the effluent hits the fan underwater and your screen is blank. I fully expect the Suuntos have improved since then, I've always had a lot of respect for Finnish engineering in general.
Also, I forgot to mention, you could use the Edge to manage your surface interval time after you got out of the water. You could see how long you needed to off-gas before the next dive you were considering. This was pretty handy when doing three dives a day. I'm not seeing that in the Ultra specs.
Tim Cook, give me a call and I'd be delighted to go on a dive trip with you to discuss.
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You're not in the target market.
The Oceanic app does surface intervals.
I'll go out on a limb here & suggest that Tim Cook doesn't need your help on this.
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Ha, an Edge dive computer! That's a blast from the past... My first comp was an early Suunto Solution (eventually replaced by a Solution Alpha).
I think you both make very good points but I'll just add to your musings rehkram, that deco is a very individual thing. (Most tables were developed with goats and young fit servicemen). I know people who've bent themselves in a 5m lake and others who've walked chatting and laughing into the pot after a rapid (Polaris missile like) ascent from 55m. Go figure...
There was a great book released in 1990 which is worth seeking out - Deeper into Diving by John Lippmann. I think he was a diving doc and went through every table, computer and permutation that was around at the time and assessed them. Obviously all a bit old hat now (nothing about GFs etc, Pyle stops etc) but very interesting all the same.
I'm am a bit nervous about what this sort of 'dive computer' represents though in that the way it's been implemented (depth lock ups etc) seems to assume that you're always with other people who can bail you out. I guess its the way of the modern world though...
I think you both make very good points but I'll just add to your musings rehkram, that deco is a very individual thing. (Most tables were developed with goats and young fit servicemen). I know people who've bent themselves in a 5m lake and others who've walked chatting and laughing into the pot after a rapid (Polaris missile like) ascent from 55m. Go figure...
There was a great book released in 1990 which is worth seeking out - Deeper into Diving by John Lippmann. I think he was a diving doc and went through every table, computer and permutation that was around at the time and assessed them. Obviously all a bit old hat now (nothing about GFs etc, Pyle stops etc) but very interesting all the same.
I'm am a bit nervous about what this sort of 'dive computer' represents though in that the way it's been implemented (depth lock ups etc) seems to assume that you're always with other people who can bail you out. I guess its the way of the modern world though...
The AWU stops displaying dive info when you exceed 40m/130', but it resumes normal operation when back at 40m/130' as long as you didn't exceed 44m/144' before ascending. And my understanding is that no matter what, the watch always displays depth & time info at any depth 130' or above. It never "completely locks up."
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OK, interesting. Do you know if it will still give you the correct deco info when you're back above 40m for the whole dive - I guess so? And is deeper than 44m an actual total lock up?
I was in a long discussion back when the Oceanic app was released, and I don't currently have the source links directly at hand. But the conclusion was:
- Deco functionality is available as long as you're above 40m/130' – and didn't go below 44m/144'.
- Going deeper than 44m/144' means no more deco info at all, but depth & time info is displayed at 130' and above.
- There is never a "total lock-up" between 40m/130' and the surface.
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rehkram
macrumors 65816
Well of course. I was just trying to highlight the non-trivial nature of scuba diving. For me, the term "recreational scuba diving" is something of an oxymoron, all the more so the deeper you go.
BTW, The Edge would also quit displaying deco information beyond a certain depth. It came back when you got back in range. I seem to recall it gave you an up arrow and blinking display when out of range. The interface challenge is presenting suitable warnings without panicking the diver, since we all know where panic underwater can lead.
rehkram
macrumors 65816
Other individual things I'd just like to add are nitrogen narcosis, and the toxicity of oxygen at high partial pressures. Different people are affected by these differently. And also on some dives but not all.
@rehkram, all these things are done by modern computers. From inexpensive Leonardo to top of the line Shearwater. The diving world divides roughly into recreational and tec divers. Their needs for what a computer can do is different. I have a Leonardo. I would not dream of doing a tec dive with it. I also know that tec diving is not for me.
The AWU has the same functionality as my Leonardo. The algorithms maybe be "rocket science" to come up with. but they are well established by now. Oceanic+ uses Bulhmann with gradient factors. It handles Nitrox. It may actually be sager than my Leonardo because it won't let me set a PPO2 greater than 1.4.
Further to my first comment, rec divers fall into 2 categories. And by Rec divers, I mean those that don't dive beyond the 40m mark. The groups are those who dive often and those who dive a couple of times a year on a vacation.
Apple firmly targeted the second group. And it is a large, possibly the largest, group of divers. Even the subscription model is geared to that. I purchased the full year because I want to play with the app. But if I was already familiar, look at my use case. In Jan 2024, I have a week long trip. 3 weeks after I get back, I'm going on a cruise and have a dive planned at one of the stops. That stop happens to be 29 days after my first day of diving in January. technically, I could pay my $10 on my frist day of diving in Jan and it would cover my cruise dive.
If Apple had written the dive app, I'd be highly skeptical. But they delegated that to a real dive equipment manufacturer. That parent company of Oceanic also owns a few well known brands in the diving community. Atomic, Hollis, Bare, Suunto, Zeagle and Stalhsac.
I trust the software as much as if I'd bought a dedicated Oceanic computer.
The AWU has the same functionality as my Leonardo. The algorithms maybe be "rocket science" to come up with. but they are well established by now. Oceanic+ uses Bulhmann with gradient factors. It handles Nitrox. It may actually be sager than my Leonardo because it won't let me set a PPO2 greater than 1.4.
Further to my first comment, rec divers fall into 2 categories. And by Rec divers, I mean those that don't dive beyond the 40m mark. The groups are those who dive often and those who dive a couple of times a year on a vacation.
Apple firmly targeted the second group. And it is a large, possibly the largest, group of divers. Even the subscription model is geared to that. I purchased the full year because I want to play with the app. But if I was already familiar, look at my use case. In Jan 2024, I have a week long trip. 3 weeks after I get back, I'm going on a cruise and have a dive planned at one of the stops. That stop happens to be 29 days after my first day of diving in January. technically, I could pay my $10 on my frist day of diving in Jan and it would cover my cruise dive.
If Apple had written the dive app, I'd be highly skeptical. But they delegated that to a real dive equipment manufacturer. That parent company of Oceanic also owns a few well known brands in the diving community. Atomic, Hollis, Bare, Suunto, Zeagle and Stalhsac.
I trust the software as much as if I'd bought a dedicated Oceanic computer.
Not only that, Apple would have done due diligence, provided advice, and carefully vetted the app independently. Probably best of both worlds.
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rehkram
macrumors 65816
Is there some 3rd party documentation confirming that? It's the obvious question to ask, right? If we knew more about the certification process (formal or informal) we'd all be able to comment more knowledgeably on it, like any piece of gear. In the meantime I'll see what I can learn on the net. Right now it all seems like a bit of a "black box" operation, to me anyway.
Can you hammer in nails with the watch? I could probably do so with my Edge! 😉 After the recent discussion, I think I should dig out the hard plastic waterproof and shockproof case from my stored gear, extract the unit, put in a battery and switch it on. I'm guessing it might fire right up, which would be much to my amusement. Orca were very serious when they built that thing.
Not obvious at all. The 2.5 trillion-dollar company officially blesses a 3rd-party app & ties the app directly to its own important new product release, promoting it in its official videos…
…and it's an app that's guaranteed to literally kill your customers- if it fails.
I don't understand why you're even asking the question.
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No documentation. But from hands on reviews of the Oceanic+ app, it looks like it's a port of their existing computer to the Apple platform. Apple's due diligence would have been confined to making sure it was operational on the watch, not the actual functionality as a dive computer.
Have you used a modern computer? You keep refencing that old, early computer. And I challenge you to drive a nail with any current computer on the market. Not their mission statement. I would no more try to hammer a nail with a dive computer than rely on a hammer to let me know my NDL.
rehkram
macrumors 65816
I haven't dived since 2005. There are a few reasons why but mainly lack of time and distance to the nearest ocean. Last hop was a nice wreck dive in NZ. Before that I was diving all around NZ both on private trips and recreational club trips as d/m. Did several private S. Pacific trips up to the Kermadecs, Solomons and Fiji with a bunch of close friends, we called it "The Taravana Dive Society" named after a certain cave dive where we first got together.
First learned to dive in the UK with BSAC, and qualified for a commercial diving course at Ft William in Scotland paid for by the government. Walked away from it after welding for a year (better $$ according to my adviser), and studying the downside of the life of a commercial saturation diver on the North Sea oil and gas platforms, in particular bone necrosis, fatality rates, physical exertion at depth often in zero viz, and 30 day stretches in the can.
I still retain a keen interest in all things underwater, and have all my gear stored away, including two Dacor scooters; one for me with a video camera mount on top, and one for whomsoever was willing to be my buddy that day. I am what you would call a very serious amateur.
Have I used a "modern" dive computer? No, but I have two arms and could easily strap one on my wrist. My old friend Mr Edge would be riding shotgun on the other forearm.
Sorry this was so long, but it could have been much longer.
First learned to dive in the UK with BSAC, and qualified for a commercial diving course at Ft William in Scotland paid for by the government. Walked away from it after welding for a year (better $$ according to my adviser), and studying the downside of the life of a commercial saturation diver on the North Sea oil and gas platforms, in particular bone necrosis, fatality rates, physical exertion at depth often in zero viz, and 30 day stretches in the can.
I still retain a keen interest in all things underwater, and have all my gear stored away, including two Dacor scooters; one for me with a video camera mount on top, and one for whomsoever was willing to be my buddy that day. I am what you would call a very serious amateur.
Have I used a "modern" dive computer? No, but I have two arms and could easily strap one on my wrist. My old friend Mr Edge would be riding shotgun on the other forearm.
Sorry this was so long, but it could have been much longer.
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What makes you think that having contracted a company that has extensive experience in making dive computers, that Apple would validate what the computer says?