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doelcm82

macrumors 68040
Feb 11, 2012
3,766
2,775
Florida, USA
The question is are you doing it through something that isn't supported or allowed by the device? Seems like you are doing it through the very options that are available and nothing more. If dividing by zero is not something that yields a mathematical answer, would it be OK if any calculator would just completely stop working and the manufacturer wouldn't help you get it back in working order if you tried to divide something by zero on it?
Nope. That's what you're saying. I'm saying that a setting that is so hard to set that you have to try extremely hard to set it is not a grievous error on Apple's part. It's a small error, but YOU know exactly what you have to avoid doing to avoid this error. And it's something ridiculously easy to avoid.

So go ahead. Make the effort. Flick through all the back dates in your iPhone's settings until you get to one that is before 1970, knowing that it will brick the phone (though probably not permanently). Then come back here and complain and see how much sympathy you get.

Apple should certainly fix the settings menu to stop uncommonly determined people from intentionally bricking their iPhones. If they do it in the next iOS update, I'm satisfied that they're doing their part.
 
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C DM

macrumors Sandy Bridge
Oct 17, 2011
51,392
19,458
Nope. That's what you're saying. I'm saying that a setting that is so hard to set that you have to try extremely hard to set it is not a grievous error on Apple's part. It's a small error, but YOU know exactly what you have to avoid doing to avoid this error. And it's something ridiculously easy to avoid.

So go ahead. Make the effort. Flick through all the back dates in your iPhone's settings until you get to one that is before 1970, knowing that it will brick the phone (though probably not permanently). Then come back here and complain and see how much sympathy you get.

Apple should certainly fix the settings menu to stop uncommonly determined people from intentionally bricking their iPhones. If they do it in the next iOS update, I'm satisfied that they're doing their part.
I wasn't addressing how bad the issue is or saying anything about Apple as far how the issue got to be there or how they are fixing it. Simply commenting it on the part that if someone does come across it now until the issue is fixed, Apple should have a way to get the device back in working order (even if it might take replacing the device). A user doing something accidentally or intentionally doesn't really matter when what they are doing is simply changing an option that is provided by the settings of the OS.
 

3460169

Cancelled
Feb 18, 2009
1,293
212
Strange.

Just for fun (weird, I know) I decided to do this on a spare iPad here at work. After resetting the time/date to 1/1/1970, I powered down and successfully rebooted; no bricking. Oddly enough, the time and date was still on 1970 and I was able to put it back to normal.


What gen is that iPad? Apparently this only affects the 64-bit devices.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
You think setting the time to 1.1.1970 on your iPhone is like setting the time on a microwave to 0:00? Really? Wow.

To a user or to a developer, they're both an example of a value that can be entered using a control designed for such entry.

That's why programmers normally include input validation and/or code range checks. And those missing elements are why Apple is putting out a fix.

A consumer device should not brick itself simply because of something the user entered using a supported input method. If it does, then yes, I think the manufacturer should take the responsibility to fix the device... even if it was done by a fool / little brother / evil roommate / someone innocent who was pranked.
 
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JosephAW

macrumors 603
May 14, 2012
5,964
7,919
I'm assuming they will release an update for iOS 8 iPhone 6 users as well since many are unable to update to iOS 9 because our OSX (10.7.x) systems (64bit) are older than Windows XP systems (32bit) and are unable to to install iTunes 12 required for iOS 9 without purchasing either a new 64 bit computer or a Windows XP 32 bit license for boot camp.
If so than maybe many users will have a window of opportunity to downgrade to iOS 8.4.x as I am using.
 

Tech198

Cancelled
Mar 21, 2011
15,915
2,151
Y2K problem.... (with a twist)


you could also say that this would also be like 'Error 53" issue, expect the user bricks the phone himself with no repairer involved... Either way, it seems long over-due.....

unless your trying to time travel, Apple needs to fix this.

Anyone wanna be the lucky one who wants to try this and see what happens?

While you could also say it needs to be fixed, its also raises the question "Users wouldn't have known this if no one even mentioned it" and while it would be a bug, its not hurting anyone since no one would have done it...

Thank to shedding light. Y2K was more serous issue, so it was different... This one is not, as all it would do is brick your phone... No missed-apointments or anything.
 
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Matthew.H

macrumors 6502a
Sep 16, 2015
770
953
Norwich, UK
Y2K problem.... (with a twist)


you could also say that this would also be like 'Error 53" issue, expect the user bricks the phone himself with no repairer involved... Either way, it seems long over-due.....

unless your trying to time travel, Apple needs to fix this.

Anyone wanna be the lucky one who wants to try this and see what happens?
Not really no. I can imagine some people with battered phones will do this though to try and get a shiny new replacement.
 

Jax44

Contributor
Jul 24, 2010
736
862
Carmel, California
The same people complaining that Apple should have never let this happen are probably the same people that believe everything should have a safety warning on it, otherwise they may have to use common sense for once.
I believe there was more to it than that, even before the maps issue came under fire from the customers. Scott was known for being an ass. In my opinion, Tim doesn't like guys like that on the team, and I think Apple has negatively been affected by that.



He makes decisions to do everything before it's ready. Like with Apple Pay. Could've waited until more merchants were ready and waited until all of the card networks were signed on first. Same with third party keyboards, buggy as heck--while that's not all Tim's fault, he could've sent a few out with the BETA programs before releasing the capability to the public first. It seems like the software in general doesn't go through enough testing anymore in the BETA programs.



I most definitely understand where you're coming from. I don't hold stock anymore, but I have experience and knowledge into trading it, and I also know people, if you know what I mean. The lack of exciting new products would make me lack confidence in the CEO of a company I'm investing in.



I agree, it used to seem like Apple products were above and beyond what other companies offered. Now it seems like other companies have caught up. Apple went from the reputation of being an innovative company, to now being a company that likes to milk products while adding a new chip or faster WiFi band every year.


You and Susan should date and talk about your issues.
 

RebornProphet

Suspended
Nov 3, 2013
989
494
You've got to wonder how many people have used this to get a free replacement under warranty for scratched/cosmetically damaged phones.

We know there's lots of chancers out there.
 
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ApfelKuchen

macrumors 601
Aug 28, 2012
4,334
3,011
Between the coasts
Speaking as a programmer, one of my jobs is to ensure users cannot either accidentally or deliberately enter values that break the systems I develop. I would in fact say that checking and validating user input is probably the most time consuming part of development as you have to anticipate and mitigate so many different scenarios.

So while it is clear this bug takes quite a lot of effort to trigger it is Apple's fault for not protecting against it, especially since it can brick your device. If someone else gets hold of your iDevice and manually changes the time or if someone spoofs an NTP server and sends your device a fake time it shouldn't result in a broken device. The system should detect an valid value and reset to a safe default.

Agreed that part of a designer's job is to idiot-proof. But as others have noted, it's not always easy to anticipate every possible permutation of idiotic/accidental behavior. It's monkeys-with-typewriters. And every so often, the monkeys come up with a new one.

"Should have anticipated" is an easy (and common) judgement to make in hindsight. And as was once said over 2,000 years ago, "He who is without sin may cast the first stone."

Now, it's your job to guard against users entering values that would "break the system that you develop..." just how do you know what values will break the system? Do you take the time to research the physical limits of every input; do you refer to a table of system-breakers; or do you do it mostly by the seat of your pants, based on your years of knowledge and experience? But in the end, "guard against" does not mean you will be 100% successful in those attempts.

At one point in my career, the Director of Engineering and I (I was #2 in the department) had to report to a pair of vice presidents (VP of Operations AM station, VP of Operations FM station), each of whom was a candidate to become President and General Manager. Something would fail at AM or FM, and both would come storming down the hall, in the midst of the failure, while we were trying to troubleshoot, and demand to know how we could "make sure that this never happens again." "How about, let us get the station back on the air, then we can talk?" In one particularly memorable case, the failure was due to earlier, mandated attempts to "Make sure this never happens again!" It turned out to be one of those, "Just what are the odds?" combination of rare conditions. If the odds had been calculated, the question would have been, "How far to the right of the decimal point do we have to go before we say, 'enough'?"

For decades, coders knew that there would be a problem on January 1, 2000. They'd been truncating dates, intentionally, for all that time. Or, well, some knew it, others may have gone along with a convention established by their predecessors. "Continue using this date format, because we don't have the time, money, or management mandate to change it throughout our system. Besides, there's no way in hell these systems will still be running at the end of the century."
 

doelcm82

macrumors 68040
Feb 11, 2012
3,766
2,775
Florida, USA
You've got to wonder how many people have used this to get a free replacement under warranty for scratched/cosmetically damaged phones.

We know there's lots of chancers out there.
If it's as easy to fix as this video suggests, Apple won't need to give out any shiny new iPhones to intentional brickers.
Those who go to the Apple store hoping for a replacement will simply get their restored iPhone back. All they'll get for their subterfuge is the loss of the use of their iPhone from the time they start the tiresome flicking to get the date back to 1970 and the next available appointment with a repair technician.
 
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St.John Smith

macrumors newbie
Jan 3, 2016
14
3
New York, NY
Apple does fix this free of charge, the fix includes unplugging the battery for ten seconds and reconnecting it, after doing so, performing a hard reset. Date will automatically set to current date, and all that needs to be done is turn Set Automatically back on.

Also, if there wasn't a fix, I feel as though it is not a multi billion dollar companies responsibility to cover replacement units for people doing something they shouldn't be doing. That's like saying BMW should replace vehicles because someone decided to drive around without oil in the motor.

Please... No car analogies please. Please!!!
 
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hans1972

macrumors 68040
Apr 5, 2010
3,324
2,896

St.John Smith

macrumors newbie
Jan 3, 2016
14
3
New York, NY
When I was in the Apple Store to get my sons phone exchanged (couldn't be fixed of course) the genius mentioned that they were looking into the possibility that this would void the warranty. I told the guy that this is different to putting your phone in the microwave or something like that, and I understand that that voids it. However This is a setting issue, a bug with the software and therefore not something that would void anything. Apple should fix it. He agreed.

I'm sure that "Genius" was guessing WAY above his pay grade.
 

manincognito

macrumors member
Apr 28, 2015
61
40
Please... No car analogies please. Please!!!

Here's another one for you, I have a pedal in my car that if I kept my foot on will cause the car to increase to a potentially dangerous speed & if I don't control the speed or turn that spinny thing I & others could die. Not being completely stupid I probably won't do that next time I'm driving but the option to do that is very real...
 
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GoodWheaties

macrumors 6502a
Jul 8, 2015
788
838
Here's another one for you, I have a pedal in my car that if I kept my foot on will cause the car to increase to a potentially dangerous speed & if I don't control the speed or turn that spinny thing I & others could die. Not being completely stupid I probably won't do that next time I'm driving but the option to do that is very real...
Well to be fair, cars also require a license and experience to operate legally. That being said, it's amazing what kids can figure out. My wife's young cousin had an iPod touch that had restrictions placed on it that did not allow him to use Safari. He figured out that by going into General - Settings - About - then going into the legal stuff he was able to find a link that he could use to manage to get on the Internet. It's amazing what can happen with persistence.
 

jm001

macrumors 6502a
Sep 19, 2011
596
123
https://www.reddit.com/r/jailbreak/comments/458ao3/discussion_changing_time_date_settings_to_jan_1/
Also, maybe someone could just be curious to see what happens? Maybe a little kid? I remember messing with my Mac's time settings in fourth grade.

Thanks for that link. Up to now the posts I've seen have only listing Jan. 1, 1970. According to the link you provided it looks like May 1970 is the latest date before bricking your phone. So don't set the date to May 1970 or earlier and you'll be fine.

As for the "curiosity" excuse, I can see that, so maybe Apple needs to give a general warning whenever you purchase an iOS device NOT to set the date to May 1970 or earlier. Although warnings are usually the catalyst for some people trying the glitch, not avoiding them i.e. like telling someone don't press that button and of course they do.

If you know about the warnings, but yet continue to brick your phone due to this glitch, then you deserve what you got.
 

sbailey4

macrumors 601
Dec 5, 2011
4,500
3,134
USA
Except my BMW comes with a very thick manual that explains every last menu option, switch and knob, as well as how to maintain it etc.

Under the bonnet are all sorts of warning labels and stickers reminding me to read the manual. So you could argue BMW took all reasonable precautions to educate and warn the user.

It tells me when it needs more oil, so to drive without it would be directly ignoring all of BMW's efforts.

Apple, however, give no real manual (although I'm told there's an online one) and have no such warnings as the phone allows you to wind the time back to 1970. It's Apple's fault for not educating the user and/or allowing the bug to be present.
And I am sure you would read it cover to cover. :rolleyes: So they should print every idiotic thing anyone may do in a manual?
Warning: Please dont wash your device in the washer.
Warning: hitting your phone with a hammer may break the screen"
Warning: Microwaving your device will not charge your battery"
Warning: Remove your device from pocket before swimming"
Warning: "insert 10,000 more pages of stupid stuff that someone MAY do here"

FAIL. What a ridiculous thing to say. If whatever you are doing no matter how ridiculous is within operating system limits then changing to that setting is the fault of APPLE if it causes a problem.
If I try and change my IP address to 127.0.0.1 the computer will either warn me or prevent me from doing so. If no warning is posted and I make the setting change and suddenly nothing works at all due to a BUG it’s Apple that are at fault.
What kind of blind fanboy would say anything different?
Apple didn't create UNIX So I suppose you should blame those developers.
 

Moshe1010

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2010
874
99
Can somebody test it on a Mac machine? It goes back to 1.1.1969, so on OS X the 1970 rule doesn't work? But it's also UNIX....
 

Keirasplace

macrumors 601
Aug 6, 2014
4,059
1,278
Montreal
Wherever the reason, the bug shouldn't be there, and should be fixed (as Apple is doing), and those who experience it should be able to get Apple to fix their device for them.

Those that experienced it, either did it to themselves because they found out about it, or had someone did it to them; that's a quasi certainty. So... Apple should do what? If someone has a crappy 4s and did this to get a new one (a 5s, the oldest phone they sell), Apple should give them what exactly? This is not something you stumble on by accident.

As for "bricking"; as that been actually confirmed or is it another urban myth related to Apple.
Another of the hyperbolic nonsense that surrounds everything Apple.
[doublepost=1455586323][/doublepost]
You used a functionality that Apple provided you. Just because it's something 99.9% of people don't do doesn't change the fact that it is a built in functionality of iOS that Apple gives you.

A functionality that's NOT DONE ACCIDENTALLY. Why we know that, because we haven't heard of it until morons posted about it even though this bug is likely 4-5 years old. So, 800M devices sold and well it just comes out now... And suddenly everyone does it? Why? Because they are morons and can't help themselves being that way; they see some idiocy and have to do it or do it to someone else.

If someone tells you doing something disables the airbag (the Ford issue), will you do it and drive dangerously just to see if it is true?
 
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rdlink

macrumors 68040
Nov 10, 2007
3,226
2,435
Out of the Reach of the FBI
I find it funny that you refer to this as a “large issue.” This is a bug that has gone unnoticed for years until some OCD type figured it out accidentally. It’s a SELF INFLICTED bug that is easily avoided. Simply don’t do it! But the stupid ones did it anyway and you call it a major issue?

It's a major issue for the particular phone in that it toasts the phone. That was my only point. Not saying it's a major issue for Apple.
[doublepost=1455587122][/doublepost]
I think there is a lot of "old code" in the OS. I think the software designers are too lazy or it's too impractical to rewrite 20 year old code that they plagiarized from some other source.

Probably true. I just think it's amusing, that's all. I have this idea for some major disaster movie where all of the nuclear missile silos in the US start spinning up because someone accidentally puts the wrong date in the BIOS of a computer.
[doublepost=1455587194][/doublepost]
I wonder if this will be fixed in a minor update or will it be part of 9.3?

Wouldn't be surprised if it's just like a two minute code fix, and they just drop it in 9.3.
[doublepost=1455587322][/doublepost]
Here's another one for you, I have a pedal in my car that if I kept my foot on will cause the car to increase to a potentially dangerous speed & if I don't control the speed or turn that spinny thing I & others could die. Not being completely stupid I probably won't do that next time I'm driving but the option to do that is very real...

Yeah, because changing the date on your phone is completely like turning your car into traffic....:rolleyes:
 
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