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Android 2007

iPhone 2007

iPhone 2007

iPhone 2007

iOS = Original
Android = Knockoff

Even Android's 2007 version was a knockoff of the Blackberry. They are not innovative. They only copy.

Here is a good read for you :

http://www.osnews.com/story/25264/Did_Android_Really_Look_Like_BlackBerry_Before_the_iPhone_

Debunks all that crap that's been posted to death and is frankly boring now.

Android looks nothing like iOS. It looks like it always did. A mix of icons and widgets to form a home page interface based on a user customization scheme. And comparing Android (software) to the iPhone (hardware) is quite ludicrous.
 
Here is a good read for you :

http://www.osnews.com/story/25264/Did_Android_Really_Look_Like_BlackBerry_Before_the_iPhone_

Debunks all that crap that's been posted to death and is frankly boring now.

Android looks nothing like iOS. It looks like it always did. A mix of icons and widgets to form a home page interface based on a user customization scheme. And comparing Android (software) to the iPhone (hardware) is quite ludicrous.

I already pointed out that the only thing your link proves is that in November 2007 (roughly 11 months after the iPhone was unveiled) Google had support for touchscreen devices. How in the Hell does that prove ANYTHING?
 
Here's a link, don't know if you would call it winning on apples part.
http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Archive/Comp/comp.sys.mac.advocacy/2007-03/msg02489.html
Hey it was from the 90's so I couldn't remember much about it.
I'm sure there are better articles on what happened but I found this one pretty quick.

This is the court case that Microsoft "settled" with Apple in the 1997 "investment" :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Francisco_Canyon_Company

No one won, it was settled (actually, it was dropped by both sides after the 1997 agreement).

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I already pointed out that the only thing your link proves is that in November 2007 (roughly 11 months after the iPhone was unveiled) Google had support for touchscreen devices. How in the Hell does that prove ANYTHING?

The Motorola Q look-a-like Android device is also from that same time frame. How does THAT prove anything ? :rolleyes:

It proves Android was designed and worked as software that was hardware agnostic and that anyone comparing Android (the OS, software) to the iPhone (a piece of hardware) is grasping at straws to prove some kind of "Apple superiority". Frankly it bores me. I don't even know why I haven't moved you to ignore yet for pursuing that god awful myth.
 
It proves Android was designed and worked as software that was hardware agnostic and that anyone comparing Android (the OS, software) to the iPhone (a piece of hardware) is grasping at straws to prove some kind of "Apple superiority". Frankly it bores me. I don't even know why I haven't moved you to ignore yet for pursuing that god awful myth.

I am not trying to prove any sort of Apple superiority. I am trying to understand your argument. You posted something saying that it proves how another thing was untrue. I asked how it proved that when the timeline doesn't show ANYTHING.

In fact, I've posted an excerpt from a book about Google showing you that iPhone caused Android to switch directions, but you conveniently ignored it every time.

I'm not saying Android wasn't going to eventually go to all touchscreen (like the iPhone), but that wasn't its initial direction. The touchscreen version of Android was not going to become reality for a few years according to the book, with the "Blackberry" like Android taking the initial focus.

EDIT: Also, I don't understand why you would ignore me. We disagree about this, I don't see why I need to be ignored if I comment on it after you do.
 
EDIT: Also, I don't understand why you would ignore me. We disagree about this, I don't see why I need to be ignored if I comment on it after you do.

Because you keep rehashing the same illogical responses in a bid to carry on the ridiculous comparison of a piece of software to a piece of hardware.
 
Because you keep rehashing the same illogical responses in a bid to carry on the ridiculous comparison of a piece of software to a piece of hardware.

Okay...So you want me to say that iOS (originally debuting on only the iPhone) changed the course of Android's development?

I'm saying the iPhone and its software caused Android to change their plans (by speeding up development for touchscreen phones). I don't see how this is illogical when I am backing it up with statements and facts.
 
Okay...So you want me to say that iOS (originally debuting on only the iPhone) changed the course of Android's development?

Yes. I'm wanting you to say that. Now I can ask you what in iOS do you feel Android adopted ?

Was it icons ? UI elements ? views ? The programming model ? The way the OS works ? The frameworks ?
 
I for one will be glad to see this suit settled. As a consumer I find all of this distracting. As someone that likes to see fairplay in industry..... If Google is proven to have violated copyrights (willfully or accidentally) then they should take their medicine. If Apple is wrong then they should eat crow and shut up.

For anyone to say that Android wasn't in any terms influenced by the iPhone.... then they are just silly. Apple innovated the mobile space by liberating us from the stylus, mountains of buttons, and introducing a completely touch/gesture based interface OS. After the iPhone, everyone had to adjust. Heck Microsoft completely scrapped their Windows Mobile 7 effort and started from scratch. Blackberry departed their tried and true form factor/scroll ball with their Storm experiment. Palm OS ditched their Legacy OS and dumped WM 6 in favor of their touch/gesture based WebOS.

Now keep in mind everything the iPhone is, is not the product of Apple innovation. As others have pointed out there were many elements of the iPhone that Apple re-packaged into the wonderful iPhone experience. There were things that Apple left off and added in later iterations. And there are still things that some may say Android is light years ahead of Apple.

The point of my long ramble is that I can see the merits on both sides of the arguments (Android may violate other patent holders IP / Apple is suing competition rather than innovating), but the dust really can't settle soon enough for this Technology Geek.
 
Yes. I'm wanting you to say that. Now I can ask you what in iOS do you feel Android adopted ?

Was it icons ? UI elements ? views ? The programming model ? The way the OS works ? The frameworks ?

I think you might be confusing what I'm saying. I am saying that Android was influenced by iOS and caused Android development to change direction. I am not saying Android is an iOS rip-off.

Also, is it just me or is the Quote Notification feature hit or miss? Sometimes (such as this time!) I get no notification, and other times I do. Strange.
 
I think you might be confusing what I'm saying. I am saying that Android was influenced by iOS and caused Android development to change direction. I am not saying Android is an iOS rip-off.

Ok then, what was there direction before and after ? Before I can see them making an OS that was hardware agnostic (right down to the runtime model using a VM to interpret bytecode so as not to attach any compiled apps to a particular architecture), with a widget based UI and after... I see... hum... the same god damn thing.
 
Ok then, what was there direction before and after ? Before I can see them making an OS that was hardware agnostic (right down to the runtime model using a VM to interpret bytecode so as not to attach any compiled apps to a particular architecture), with a widget based UI and after... I see... hum... the same god damn thing.

I don't know, maybe talk to the Android engineers who told Steven Levy this:

At first the Android team worked on two different systems. One was called the Sooner; it was based on the existing Android prototype. With a keypad sitting underneath the screen, Sooner was designed to get into the market quickly. Sooner absorbed most of the energy in Android’s early days at Google. For the long term, Rubin’s group wanted to develop a more advanced platform with a touch screen. He dubbed that version the Dream. But in January 2007, Apple’s new iPhone redefined the smart phone. With its touch screen, tightly integrated software, and sharp display, the iPhone had delivered the future ahead of schedule. Sooner became never, and Android went straight to the Dream.

I don't know if you truly believe Google isn't optimizing Android around touch based devices (as in the interaction method). Look at Andrew Munn's post where he points out that some of the UI issues stem from the fact that Android was originally designed around a device that's main interaction method was not touchscreen. When Dianne refuted his post, she did not mention that particular point.

I am actually curious, but if you took away the touchscreen from an Android device, would applications actually work on it (as in be usable)?
 
I don't know, maybe talk to the Android engineers who told Steven Levy this:

Is that the "engineer" who's actually an intern that interned at Google on the Android project for 3 months, close to a year after the release of the first Android phone ? :rolleyes:



I don't know if you truly believe Google isn't optimizing Android around touch based devices (as in the interaction method).

Why wouldn't they ? Again, Android is hardware agnostic. To be hardware agnostic, you actually need to support various kinds of hardware, of which touch screens are 1 example. :rolleyes:

What does THAT prove ?

See, this is why I think you're ignore worthy. You want to ignore the whole and just concentrate on a few parts to prove some ridiculous notion, ignoring that Android does not look like iOS, does not work like iOS, isn't even close to iOS.
 
Ok then, what was there direction before and after ? Before I can see them making an OS that was hardware agnostic (right down to the runtime model using a VM to interpret bytecode so as not to attach any compiled apps to a particular architecture), with a widget based UI and after... I see... hum... the same god damn thing.

I would bet that pre-iphone their Android recipe didn't include multi-touch gesture interface.
 
Is that the "engineer" who's actually an intern that interned at Google on the Android project for 3 months, close to a year after the release of the first Android phone ? :rolleyes:
No, in fact it was a bunch of Android/Google engineers. I even emailed him to clarify. :)


Why wouldn't they ? Again, Android is hardware agnostic. To be hardware agnostic, you actually need to support various kinds of hardware, of which touch screens are 1 example. :rolleyes:

What does THAT prove ?

See, this is why I think you're ignore worthy. You want to ignore the whole and just concentrate on a few parts to prove some ridiculous notion, ignoring that Android does not look like iOS, does not work like iOS, isn't even close to iOS.
If your OS is hardware agnostic and does not require any specific hardware, why would you completely build its interaction method around one single piece of hardware? That doesn't seem to make much sense to me.
 
I am actually curious, but if you took away the touchscreen from an Android device, would applications actually work on it (as in be usable)?

Yep. I dug out my original Incredible (with the optical trackball that I miss for high-speed scrolling) and I was able to do pretty much everything with it and the primary buttons. Tried things like launching apps, viewing notifications, using USAToday app, etc. Didn't try any games; that might be problematic.

I'm a bit sad actually that nobody wants to make combination touch / trackball / custom button devices any more. I kind of miss having programmable side buttons for instant access to various things.

I would bet that pre-iphone their Android recipe didn't include multi-touch gesture interface.

The iPhone wasn't the first to publicly announce a phone with a multi-touch gesture interface with pinch zoom etc. That honor goes to a Linux open source project in Nov 2006. VGA resolution screen, dual orientation sensors, multi-touch screen, four icon dock, and the promoter said that "apps will be the new ringtones". Sound familiar? Some reporters thought that Apple copied some of its ideas at the last minute.

iphone_linux.jpg

The above phone wasn't even the first to talk about using more than one finger on a capacitive screen. Synaptics (yep, the people who made all those laptop touchpads) was busy in 2006 showing off their ideas with the Onyx touch phone. Its entire faceplate was touch sensitive, and it could even tell the difference between your facial skin (if you put it beside you to talk) and the side of a finger.

onyx_jennie.png

As for touch gestures, Samsung (yes, Samsung) sold a fairly simple gesture based touchscreen phone back in mid-2006, a year before the iPhone went on sale:

2006_samsung_SGH-Z610.png

Personally, my favorite pre-iPhone all touch design, albeit one that didn't even make it to a prototype, was the BenQ Blackbox, which had an ivory black skin with icons and buttons shining through it.

benq-blackbox.png
 
The iPhone wasn't the first to publicly announce a phone with a multi-touch gesture interface with pinch zoom etc. That honor goes to a Linux open source project in Nov 2006.

Ah yes, another piece of never-produced vaporware dragged out to prove that Apple never does anything new. Add it to the oft-quoted Xerox Parc legend. And of course everyone knows that the iPad was really invented by some unknown prop designer on the set of 2001, A Space Odyssey.

Except, thats not really how things work. And it certainly isn't what Apple's Intellectual Property claims are about.

Someone announces a multi-touch phone in November of 2006? Call me unimpressed. (Hint, do you think Apple's iPhone team didn't already have a few hundred working prototypes of the original iPhone by that time? Since the phone was actually announced less than two months later, I suspect they were already in production.)

I urge anyone interested in debating Apple's contribution to computing in general to read the excellent Malcolm Gladwell piece that appeared in the New Yorker last year. To (briefly) summarize: Steve Jobs saw at Xerox a computer that had graphical windows, and that used a contraption called a "mouse" to move a pointer around. Except what he saw couldn't be sold, and certainly couldn't be used by anyone not intimately familiar with how to operate it. The mouse cost $300 and used steel ball bearings, and needed to be serviced every two weeks. Working out all the little details that made it a) affordable and b) easy for the average consumer to understand and use is what Apple did.

Apple's "mistake" at that time? It didn't patent the hundred little things it put into the original Mac OS. Of course, the whole idea of software patents was pretty new at that time. The landmark Diamond v. Diehr case came out in 1981; and since this concerned an algorithm used in an process for the industrial curing of rubber, it didn't seem particularly appropriate. (Of course, software has always been subject to copyright protection - you can cut and paste code from a decompiled competitors product - but a decent coder can always figure out a way to reverse engineer.) Apple was a young company, going through a tumultuous period.

Apple went on to see Microsoft copy a lot of the things that made the Mac special. They sued - but because they hadn't patented any of the software innovations they'd created, they ultimately lost.

Steve Jobs, and Apple, learned a lesson: Patent everything and anything you can. Patent "Scroll and Bounce Back", patent "Swipe to unlock", patent the method that highlights, and makes a clickable link of every phone number, e-mail address etc. in an electronic message. Filing a Patent application only costs a few thousand dollars. Maybe 9 out of 10 are either rejected, or otherwise turn out to be worthless. But you only need a few to be found a) valid and b) infringed by a competitor before you begin to make their life very unpleasant indeed. (There is a different story on Standard-Essential Patents, but thats another topic.)

So: Anyone can come up with a thin glass panel with icons on it, and claim they really invented the iPhone. What Apple did was figure out, and patent, all the details that actually made it work. There's a huge difference.
 
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Apple's "mistake" at that time? It didn't patent the hundred little things it put into the original Mac OS.

Patents woudn't have helped. Steve reportedly licensed anything patentable about the UI to MS, way too soon, in exchange for MS making Word, Multiplan and maybe Basic for the Mac.
 
Ah yes, another piece of never-produced vaporware

Uh ? The FicNeo1973 sold from 2007 to 2008. :confused:

Why do people even make these hateful comments full of ignorance without bothering to look things up ? If it's not Apple, it's "never-produced vaporware" ?

Is there some kind of rule where Apple has to have come up with everything, and even if they hid it deep within their labs in cupertino, everybody else gets no credit because Apple secretly made it first and it probably got copied ?

Listening to some people here, you'd believe Steve Jobs came up with theorie of relativity, electricity, invented the car/lightbulb, probably came up with written languages by himself and invented the wheel in his spare time, also unifying the tribes to form the first civilization after showing people how to preserve their history by painting on cave walls...
 
Ah yes, another piece of never-produced vaporware dragged out to prove that Apple never does anything new. Add it to the oft-quoted Xerox Parc legend. And of course everyone knows that the iPad was really invented by some unknown prop designer on the set of 2001, A Space Odyssey.

Except, thats not really how things work. And it certainly isn't what Apple's Intellectual Property claims are about.

Someone announces a multi-touch phone in November of 2006? Call me unimpressed. (Hint, do you think Apple's iPhone team didn't already have a few hundred working prototypes of the original iPhone by that time? Since the phone was actually announced less than two months later, I suspect they were already in production.)

I urge anyone interested in debating Apple's contribution to computing in general to read the excellent Malcolm Gladwell piece that appeared in the New Yorker last year. To (briefly) summarize: Steve Jobs saw at Xerox a computer that had graphical windows, and that used a contraption called a "mouse" to move a pointer around. Except what he saw couldn't be sold, and certainly couldn't be used by anyone not intimately familiar with how to operate it. The mouse cost $300 and used steel ball bearings, and needed to be serviced every two weeks. Working out all the little details that made it a) affordable and b) easy for the average consumer to understand and use is what Apple did.

Apple's "mistake" at that time? It didn't patent the hundred little things it put into the original Mac OS. Of course, the whole idea of software patents was pretty new at that time. The landmark Diamond v. Diehr case came out in 1981; and since this concerned an algorithm used in an process for the industrial curing of rubber, it didn't seem particularly appropriate. (Of course, software has always been subject to copyright protection - you can cut and paste code from a decompiled competitors product - but a decent coder can always figure out a way to reverse engineer.) Apple was a young company, going through a tumultuous period.

Apple went on to see Microsoft copy a lot of the things that made the Mac special. They sued - but because they hadn't patented any of the software innovations they'd created, they ultimately lost.

Steve Jobs, and Apple, learned a lesson: Patent everything and anything you can. Patent "Scroll and Bounce Back", patent "Swipe to unlock", patent the method that highlights, and makes a clickable link of every phone number, e-mail address etc. in an electronic message. Filing a Patent application only costs a few thousand dollars. Maybe 9 out of 10 are either rejected, or otherwise turn out to be worthless. But you only need a few to be found a) valid and b) infringed by a competitor before you begin to make their life very unpleasant indeed. (There is a different story on Standard-Essential Patents, but thats another topic.)

So: Anyone can come up with a thin glass panel with icons on it, and claim they really invented the iPhone. What Apple did was figure out, and patent, all the details that actually made it work. There's a huge difference.

Great post. This should be sticky'd so people understand the reasoning behind Apples OCD on patents. :apple:
 
Y
The iPhone wasn't the first to publicly announce a phone with a multi-touch gesture interface with pinch zoom etc. That honor goes to a Linux open source project in Nov 2006. VGA resolution screen, dual orientation sensors, multi-touch screen, four icon dock, and the promoter said that "apps will be the new ringtones". Sound familiar? Some reporters thought that Apple copied some of its ideas at the last minute.

The Neo1973 never had a multi-touch gesture interface because it shipped with a resistive touchscreen, even in the final iterations. So that claim is simply wrong.

http://copilotco.com/mail-archives/openmoko.2009/msg17127.html
 
The above phone wasn't even the first to talk about using more than one finger on a capacitive screen. Synaptics (yep, the people who made all those laptop touchpads) was busy in 2006 showing off their ideas with the Onyx touch phone. Its entire faceplate was touch sensitive, and it could even tell the difference between your facial skin (if you put it beside you to talk) and the side of a finger.

Using more than one finger, yes. Using both fingers independently? Not quite.
That screen was developed to recognize up to two fingers on the pad, but not track both of them individually. Why? Because back then, capacitive touch pads only used two finger recognition for right-click and scroll wheel.

More details are here: http://openhandsetmagazine.com/2009/01/the-story-of-multitouch-on-android-g1/
 
The iPhone wasn't the first to publicly announce a phone with a multi-touch gesture interface with pinch zoom etc.....................

You misread me. I bet that androids pre-iPhone recipe didn't include multi-touch gesture based interface. Not that Apple was the first with the technology, or that they even invented it. In fact I'm pretty sure they bought it in their finger works acquisition.

Multi-touch was nothing new, and gesture based interfaces was nothing new. The way that apple packaged it altogether and brought it to the mobile platform was new and innovative. It caused every manufacturer and mobile OS developer to re-think their approach to mobile UI's.

Others may have been working on it, as you show from your example, but Apple was their first commercially. And their success in taming the mobile space caused everyone to re-evaluate and almost immediately iPhone killers started coming out.
 
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[RANT]

Who really gives a toss any more?

Every other day Apple sues for this, Samsung for that, add in a dash of Motorola, HTC and now let's try and involve Google directly.

Whatever way you look at this somebody tell me, how does this benefit us as consumers?

Is it right that we have a victor in these cases? I don't want some lawyer from the States or Korea deciding which handset / tablet I should use. I want the choice, screw you Apple, screw you Samsung and screw you Google.

Multi-millions pissed up the wall by giant organisations, squabbling over technologies that will be obsolete long before the courtroom battles are finished.

Sick of all this stupid ****!

[Rant Over]
 
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Someone announces a multi-touch phone in November of 2006? Call me unimpressed.
The Neo1973 never had a multi-touch gesture interface because it shipped with a resistive touchscreen, even in the final iterations. So that claim is simply wrong.

My claim was absolutely correct. I said "announced". I have written before that it did not end up shipping with the more expensive capacitive screen, but that is not what is important in this context... the ideas involved are.

My post was in response to this comment:

SporkLover said:
I would bet that pre-iphone their Android recipe didn't include multi-touch gesture interface.

As you noted, many people were working on (and publicly talking about) capacitive screens with multi-touch on phones BEFORE the iPhone was announced.

The obvious point is that having those particular features did not require copying from Apple. Nothing more, nothing less. People should not read something in that wasn't said.

(Hint, do you think Apple's iPhone team didn't already have a few hundred working prototypes of the original iPhone by that time? Since the phone was actually announced less than two months later, I suspect they were already in production.)

Timewise, when the Neo was announced in Nov 2006, Jobs was reportedly telling his team that they "did not have a product yet".

It was another four months before the iPhone was submitted to the FCC in March 2007. It was approved in early May. Field tests took about six weeks, after which mass production could begin. It went on sale at the end of June.

So: Anyone can come up with a thin glass panel with icons on it, and claim they really invented the iPhone. What Apple did was figure out, and patent, all the details that actually made it work. There's a huge difference.

Yes, and others can do the same thing. Apple is not unique in that respect.

What many people here miss out on, is that it's the same engineers over and over again who are involved in these projects. From Xerox to Apple to Palm to Android, you'll see the same names popping up.

Companies don't invent things. CEOs don't invent things. People invent things. CEOs enable, and companies build and sell.

Jobs saw opportunities in making computers simpler. He was not the only one to think so, and he certainly wasn't the first one. He was however, in a position to hire the right people to make it happen, much to everyone's benefit.
 
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[RANT]
Sick of all this stupid ****!

[Rant Over]

Yeah, why bother with the messy details and background when one can just throw a self-entitlement tantrum. We just want to spend money and get new toys, right!?
 
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