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if it is distributed outside of the apple app store, then Apple should have no right to any fees or income.
Every app running on iOS will use Apple’s technology, and they want to charge for it. Im not sure where this idea comes from that the method of app distribution should determine whether Apple can charge a fee or not.

Fair access does not mean free.
 
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Every app running on iOS will use Apple’s technology, and they want to charge for it. Im not sure where this idea comes from that the method of app distribution should determine whether Apple can charge a fee or not.

Fair access does not mean free.
They want to charge for it, sure. That doesn’t mean they will be allowed to. I am quite confident that this core technology nonsense will be axed by the regulator.
 
They want to charge for it, sure. That doesn’t mean they will be allowed to. I am quite confident that this core technology nonsense will be axed by the regulator.
I’m not sure it will because then the regulation becomes a prohibition on being able to charge for IP, and I don’t think the DMA is designed to prevent companies from being able to charge money for their technology products.

Its a very different regulation if it’s a prohibition on charging for IP.
 
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Those airplanes are created by the market, not by rules.
Yikes. How can someone be smart enough to post in an internet forum but dumb enough for a take this bad?

You think Samsung was intentionally selling smartphones with exploding batteries and the only thing that was stopping Samsung was rules? The market will eliminate bad products and Samsung cannot sell smartphones that explode as nobody would buy it.
The Note 7 was taken off the market by government rules, not by the market itself. If the market had the kind of power you seem to think it did, the Note 8 never would have gotten off the ground and Samsung would not be a Smartphone player.

Why you think the stock price of Boeing is crashing at the moment? The market punishes bad products, just like how Nokia got destroyed by the market.
Because Boeing has to fix all the planes they already sold. Not because the market is demanding they do, because government regulations are forcing them to.

So again, why are EU airlines so bad then if rules are so good rather than the market?
I wouldn't say the US airlines are any better, considering how easy it is to get dumped from a flight. You know, because that's how "markets" work.

Perhaps you should stop getting your economics training from the likes of Ross Perot and Donald Trump. Even Adam Smith understood the limitations of free markets with few large players.
 
I’m not sure it will because then the regulation becomes a prohibition on being able to charge for IP, and I don’t think the DMA is designed to prevent companies from being able to charge money for their technology products.

Its a very different regulation if it’s a prohibition on charging for IP.
Apple charges money for its IP. Apple products cost significantly more than similarly specced competition products. In addition to that they charge developers a yearly fee to use the SKD, APIs etc. The core developer fee doesn’t have this purpose, it’s meant to discourage developers from publishing outside of the App Store, which is clearly against the spirit and the intent of the DMA. Apple can, if it wants, raise the cost of its products or the fee it charges developers… if it thinks it can convince customers to still buy its products and developers to still develop for them, but it can’t charge only the developers who publish on alternative app stores. This won’t go down well with the EU (or the various other governments considering similar regulations).
 
One possible solution is to get rid of free apps. They were necessary in the beginning, so Apple could build its catalog of apps on the AppStore, but they just devalue people's work.
I mean thats what Apple cleary wants. I'm not sure why people are disagreeing with you. Apple clearly can't afford to host a file in a datacenter somewhere for free, just look at their quarterly results! (That last bit is sarcasm)
 
Not when changing the way things work means that big players leverage their dominant position in the market to further their own monopolistic position and keep competitors from entering that market.
What if that also makes things better for consumers? Is that not a consideration?
 
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Apple charges money for its IP. Apple products cost significantly more than similarly specced competition products. In addition to that they charge developers a yearly fee to use the SKD, APIs etc. The core developer fee doesn’t have this purpose, it’s meant to discourage developers from publishing outside of the App Store, which is clearly against the spirit and the intent of the DMA. Apple can, if it wants, raise the cost of its products or the fee it charges developers… if it thinks it can convince customers to still buy its products and developers to still develop for them, but it can’t charge only the developers who publish on alternative app stores. This won’t go down well with the EU (or the various other governments considering similar regulations).
I believe Apple offers developers the ability to pay the CTF and a reduced commission in the App Store, or stay on the current commission terms, as well as charging no commission and a CTF outside of the App Store. So developers will have 3 different payment/cost profiles to pick from for their apps.
 
Works even better on mobile without the desktop baggage.

I don’t know why the discussion keeps coming back to the way it works on desktop. Are we not permitted to change the way things work? Why can’t we develop something better/different?

Its like saying music streaming shouldn't exist because we already have a working system to purchase music, or that game streaming shouldn't exist because you can already buy games.

Its ok for different models to germinate and exist.
I agree with you in principle, but it's irrelevant to this particular discussion.

If Apple had 5% market share then they could do whatever they wanted and it wouldn't be a problem, their position isn't large enough. When they have well over 50% in certain markets they are no longer a small player that can do whatever they want, because whether they like it or not, their gatekeeper position is creating issues, particularly the combination of being an app marketplace gatekeeper as well as a service provider is creating anti-trust issues.

I wish Apple had realised this on their own, and opened up the platform on their own terms, but they didn't and now we are here.
 
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I don’t think it has been considered, because i think the (obvious, as you say) opposite conclusion would be reached if it had been.
The EU conducted a very detailed impact assessment, that includes also impact on consumers. The conclusion was that this will make things better for consumers. So I repeat it: it has been considered and the conclusion was that it was good for consumers. And frankly I’ll trust a detailed assessment done by experts over a random joe on the internet.

 
Consumers need an intermediary (union) that has the power to cut off an app developers access to those consumers if the app developer does something underhand/against the consumers interests with the permissions that the consumer has granted that app developer.
An independent trustworthy committee, let’a call it a „Committee for App Fairness“, could be formed that includes
  • operating system developer representatives (e.g. Apple)
  • app developer and digital service provider representatives (e.g. Spotify, Epic, Match Group)
  • and possibly government regulators or consumer protection agencies
Sto handle such decisions in a fair and nonpartisan manner.

This would prevent companies from doing something underhanded against consumers‘ interests (such as preventing competing digital service providers from communicating and conducting transactions with their customers).

As you say, developers surely shouldn’t have unlimited and irrevocable permissions to use as they please, with the permissions and trust consumers have granted them.
 
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I believe Apple offers developers the ability to pay the CTF and a reduced commission in the App Store, or stay on the current commission terms, as well as charging no commission and a CTF outside of the App Store. So developers will have 3 different payment/cost profiles to pick from for their apps.
Technically developers have options, but in practice most developers don't, which is the entire goal of this new fee. Those developers are forced to stay on Apple's old terms and only use the App Store and Apple's payment system, or else they will have to pay Apple hundreds of thousands or even tens of millions of dollars each year.
 
I agree with you in principle, but it's irrelevant to this particular discussion.

If Apple had 5% market share then they could do whatever they wanted and it wouldn't be a problem, their position isn't large enough. When they have well over 50% in certain markets they are no longer a small player that can do whatever they want, because whether they like it or not, their gatekeeper position is creating issues, particularly the combination of being an app marketplace gatekeeper as well as a service provider is creating anti-trust issues.

I wish Apple had realised this on their own, and opened up the platform on their own terms, but they didn't and now we are here.
I don’t think Apple thinks they are doing anything wrong, so I don’t think they’d recognise that there was anything that needed changing (they still disagree with the DMA).
 
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An independent trustworthy committee, let’a call it a „Committee for App Fairness“, could be formed that includes
  • operating system developer representatives (e.g. Apple)
  • app developer and digital service provider representatives (e.g. Spotify, Epic, Match Group)
  • and possibly government regulators or consumer protection agencies
to handle such decisions in a fair and nonpartisan manner.

This would prevent companies from doing something underhanded against consumers interests (such as preventing competing digital service providers from communicating and conducting transactions with their customers).

💡
I agree that would be great, but the problem would be getting Spotify, epic and match group to agree to it (especially as they would have to pay for the running of it).
 
Technically developers have options, but in practice most developers don't, which is the entire goal of this new fee. Those developers are forced to stay on Apple's old terms and only use the App Store and Apple's payment system, or else they will have to pay Apple hundreds of thousands or even tens of millions of dollars each year.
Your conclusion seems to be the opposite of what Apple has said would happen. I understand Apple wants to paint a rosey picture but I prefer to deal in facts and I haven’t seen any to the contrary. I presume these are the figures that the EU will be pouring over.

Where do you source your conclusion/figures from?
 
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Here’s part of the problem with humanity:
”We don't care what the data said. We want people to continue to feel…”
 
The most anti competitive entity in the world is government. Who protects us from them?
Us protects us from us ;)

But yes, I agree, the government interference always comes at a cost and some will be advantaged at the cost of others. Consumers don't benefit from this situation at all. We already had choices.
 
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Looking at the DMA they posit that a reduction in App Store commission from 30% to 15% would reduce prices for consumers.

Does anyone have any figures as to what happened to app prices once Apple had introduced the 15% commission rate? Did the prices go down for consumers or did the developers simply pocket the difference?
 
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